lpg pipework and electric cables

[theonlyhenry]

11 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Only the bolshy, miserable ones.

Happy days ?

[MtB]

10 hours ago, theonlyhenry said:

Still no clearer. So much for helpful boaters.

I feel a block coming up.....................

 

 

Should I take that as a ''no, you haven't heard of the RCD" then? 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, theonlyhenry said:

Just to be clear. Are you speaking for the whole community ?

 

What you probably do not realise is that you are asking for and getting free advice from may professionals on here and all too often we find that when a  questioner does not get the advice they expect or want they proceed to be rude and throw their toys out of the pram.

 

The bottom line is that if you want detailed advice EMPLOY a professional to hold your hand or do the job. Otherwise accept that people are trying to help. I note that you do not seem to have confirmed that you already knew about either the BSS regulations or the RCD. As you were advise these should be your first port of call. This was and is good advice and what you needed to hear rather than maybe what you wanted to hear.

 

To a degree I am with Sam.

 

[Murflynn]

wot he said.   

[nicknorman]

It’s funny how CWDF thinks it holds the moral high ground and that TB is full of horrible people. Seems to me like the reverse. 

[Murflynn]

Mr Henry.

 

There are potentially hundreds of technical issues that need to be understood before fitting out a sailaway.   

If you don't comply with the RCD (which is a blanket requirement covering the documentation to be produced, and the many standards that must be met) then you will not be able to sell the boat legally within 5 years.

If you are not aware of these requirements then it seems likely that you are new to boating and it is quite likely that you may change your mind about your first boat and wish to sell it on, so it is wise to comply with the RCD and to document it as required by the RCD. 

If you believe you can ask for clear answers on this forum to any of the technical issues that will crop up, then you must understand you will only get an opinion from a few folk, some experts, some not - the only way to ensure you follow the rules is to obtain the standards and follow them, or if you don't like or understand what is involved in (or just can't be bothered) reading complex inter-related specification documents then you should employ someone properly qualified to do that on your behalf.    

By the way,  I managed to print most of the relevant pages of many of the standards involved at our local city central library's business section; they allowed me to read the controlled copy PDF's on a desktop computer and to print what I needed, after I had confirmed I understood that, under the terms of copyright and use by subscribers, I could only print 10% of the text.  That was when I was fitting out a sailaway in 2005.

[frangar]

38 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It’s funny how CWDF thinks it holds the moral high ground and that TB is full of horrible people. Seems to me like the reverse. 

We aren’t asking you to stay.......I think

the OP has been given good advice but seems to think they should be guided every step of the way...to my mind if you need that much guidance with something like gas or electricity which could easily be fatal to you or more importantly others then you should seek a qualified person to carry out the work. 

Edited October 29, 2019 by frangar

[nicknorman]

12 minutes ago, frangar said:

We aren’t asking you to stay.......I think

 

 I am part of we. That is rather confusing.

[frangar]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

 I am part of we. That is rather confusing.

We as in the forum...I as in my opinion....

 

Happy now?

[nicknorman]

10 minutes ago, frangar said:

We as in the forum...I as in my opinion....

 

Happy now?

No. We as in the forum includes me. How do you know what I am doing?

Anyway, whether or not you personally are asking me to stay or go has no significance, I am hardly likely to take guidance on the matter from you! But “we the forum”’s conduct does have significance with regard to whether new members decide to stay or go. And all often, first impressions are pretty bad and people go. Is that your aim?

[frangar]

7 hours ago, nicknorman said:

No. We as in the forum includes me. How do you know what I am doing?

Anyway, whether or not you personally are asking me to stay or go has no significance, I am hardly likely to take guidance on the matter from you! But “we the forum”’s conduct does have significance with regard to whether new members decide to stay or go. And all often, first impressions are pretty bad and people go. Is that your aim?

As I see it the OP was given the advice he asked for...for some reason he seemed to take offence at what this was...

 

If you think that’s being offensive and rude I really don’t know what those that gave advice could do better. 
 

As you well know the same advice is asked time and time again on here so a quick polite answer is often required which I think was given....when you say you are going to block someone on before you’ve made more than a couple of posts yourself I don’t think you can complain too much. 
 

Hopefully the OP has gone away and read up on the RCD & BSS and is now more enlightened on the finer points of safe gas installation....and if not let’s hope they ask advice from suitably qualified persons. 

[blackrose]

12 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Just a point of order chaps. Boats dont HAVE to comply with the RCD always do they? I thought if the boat was over five years old when you sold it after completion it didnt need one?? 

 

If it's an owner self-fittout then as far as I'm aware that is still correct. So I'm not sure why everyone assumed the OP had to fit out to RCD standards? Despite the RCD being in existence for the best part of 20 years I'm sure most DIYers don't use it and just fit out to BSS standards. With the greatest respect, perhaps there's some confusion amongst the professionals here who don't consider the DIY fit-out BSS route because they can't use it?

 

I'm assuming here that the OP is an owner/DIYer rather than a professional boat fitter who's planning to sell the boat.

Edited October 30, 2019 by blackrose

[blackrose]

12 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It has all changed with later versions of the RCD.

 

If you make 'major changes' particularly those affecting safety or emissions (ie new engine, changes to gas system, changes to ballast/stabiklity etc) then the boat must have a Post Construction Survey and be issued with a Post Construction Certificate

 

 

 

But an owner fitting out a new sailaway can still comply with BSS regs rather than the RCD can't they, as long as the boat is not sold within 5 years?

[blackrose]

20 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

 

Clearly it is not a requirement for older boats only needing to comply with BSS regulations.

 

AFAIK the age of the boat is only relevant if it's a new boat sold as a fully completed craft within 5 years of being built (launched?) in which case it will need to comply with the RCD. However new sailaways can also comply with BSS regs in the circumstances outlined above, just like older boats.

Edited October 30, 2019 by blackrose

[LadyG]

21 hours ago, theonlyhenry said:

Still no clearer. So much for helpful boaters.

I feel a block coming up.....................

 

Hello Henry, I suspect that you have taken on this project due to the cost of a professional fitout. There will still be considerable costs: materials, tools, blood, sweat, and tears [frustration]. You will need to Keep Calm and Carry on.

There are so many skills required in this enterprise that only an experienced boatbuilder would be in a position to do the job himself. and his work would then be subject to scrutiny from a professional surveyor if he wanted to sell it with RCD status  and a BSS certificate, 

It is difficult for anyone to advise you at this early stage, but In my humble opinion, it would pay to do a lot more research, while you spend time on preparation. You can see several builds on you tube: Colin Jaques is pretty good.

[blackrose]

18 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Hello Henry, I suspect that you have taken on this project due to the cost of a professional fitout. There will still be considerable costs: materials, tools, blood, sweat, and tears [frustration]. You will need to Keep Calm and Carry on.

There are so many skills required in this enterprise that only an experienced boatbuilder would be in a position to do the job himself. and his work would then be subject to scrutiny from a professional surveyor if he wanted to sell it with RCD status  and a BSS certificate, 

 

 

But plenty of ordinarily non-boat builders fit out sailaways themselves. I did it without any experience at all. It's true that some DIYers have better results than others, but I know loads of people who've fitted out their own boats.

[LadyG]

37 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

But plenty of ordinarily non-boat builders fit out sailaways themselves. I did it without any experience at all. It's true that some DIYers have better results than others, but I know loads of people who've fitted out their own boats.

I am currently trying to sort my boat which has suffered from a lifetime of corner cutting, pig ignorance, and "professional" bodging,  as far as I know they were experienced people who worked on the boat, no paper trail, no formal documentation. Several safety and many good practice issues. A total pia.

Not saying it is impossible to do a good job, but it is not a good start if one relies on the forum rather than formal researching and deciding how to proceed to a predetermined conclusion.

Edited October 30, 2019 by LadyG

[Murflynn]

one of my inspirations was 'The Narrowboat Builder's Book'.   Well worth a read.   And Tony Brooks has very generously provided the Training Notes related to his TB Training business.  Excellent especially in matters electrical.

[Chewbacka]

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

Hello Henry, I suspect that you have taken on this project due to the cost of a professional fitout. There will still be considerable costs: materials, tools, blood, sweat, and tears [frustration]. You will need to Keep Calm and Carry on.

There are so many skills required in this enterprise that only an experienced boatbuilder would be in a position to do the job himself. and his work would then be subject to scrutiny from a professional surveyor if he wanted to sell it with RCD status  and a BSS certificate, 

It is difficult for anyone to advise you at this early stage, but In my humble opinion, it would pay to do a lot more research, while you spend time on preparation. You can see several builds on you tube: Colin Jaques is pretty good.

My understanding (Back in 2010 research, so it may have changed) is that a canal boat (cat D from memory) Is self cert for RCD compliance assessment, an independent assessment is not required.  Though a BSS inspector can not certify their own boat for BSS.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Chewbacka

[LadyG]

10 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

If it is a canal boat (cat D from memory) then it is self cert for RCD compliance assessment, an independent assessment is not required.  Though a BSS inspector can not certify their own boat for BSS.

I am only going on conversation with a boatbuilder, not sure of the exact detail, nevertheless, to do a complete self fit-out without asking for some onsite advice from an experienced professional seems very risky. There are so many ways of doing things, so many more wrong ways than best ways.

eg as far as I am aware gas installation can be done by a competent person, in this instance, current competence seems to be very limited. I am considering how this would be viewed by insurance or by the courts if there was a accident,

Edited October 30, 2019 by LadyG

[nicknorman]

5 hours ago, frangar said:

As I see it the OP was given the advice he asked for...for some reason he seemed to take offence at what this was...

 

If you think that’s being offensive and rude I really don’t know what those that gave advice could do better. 
 

As you well know the same advice is asked time and time again on here so a quick polite answer is often required which I think was given....when you say you are going to block someone on before you’ve made more than a couple of posts yourself I don’t think you can complain too much. 
 

Hopefully the OP has gone away and read up on the RCD & BSS and is now more enlightened on the finer points of safe gas installation....and if not let’s hope they ask advice from suitably qualified persons. 

He said “I feel a block coming up”. I didn’t read that as meaning he was going to block someone (the correct term would be ignore them, or put them on ignore), rather it was more along the lines of a gumption trap (ref zataomm). But then I wasn’t looking for conflict.

Edited October 30, 2019 by nicknorman

[TheBiscuits]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

as far as I am aware gas installation can be done by a competent person

Unless it's a liveaboard.

[nicknorman]

9 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Unless it's a liveaboard.

So are you saying that a live aboard boat’s gas installation must be done by an incompetent person? <smiley face!>

 

No, the requirement under the GSUIR is that a gas installation on a live aboard boat must be done by a competent person. Most of the GSUIR law is about doing it commercially - much of it doesn’t apply to DIY. Being gas safe registered to DIY on your own boat is not mandated by that law, although of course it is a good means to demonstrate that one is competent (even though we all know being GS registered is no guarantee of competence).

Edited October 30, 2019 by nicknorman

[WotEver]

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

the requirement under the GSUIR is that a gas installation on a live aboard boat must be done by a competent person. Being gas safe registered is not mandated by that law, although of course it is a good means to demonstrate that one is competent (even though we all know being GS registered is no guarantee of competence).

Wasn’t it a GS registered chap who recently killed his family with a bodged generator mod?

Or am I mis-remembering that? (I seem to do that more and more these days). 

[nicknorman]

Just now, WotEver said:

Wasn’t it a GS registered chap who recently killed his family with a bodged generator mod?

Yes. And as MtB often says, much of the issue about gas safety is about CO, more so than about gas leaks.