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lpg pipework and electric cables


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8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

All spelled out what standards you must comply with in the RCD.

 

You do know about the Recreational Craft Directive? Please say 'yes'. 

 

 

I think the "mods" should make this post a "sticky" in this section!! :D

 

 

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17 minutes ago, theonlyhenry said:

Still no clearer. So much for helpful boaters.

I feel a block coming up.....................

 

The RCD comprises a number of different standards documents, according to topic. For lpg it’s BS EN ISO 10239

 

https://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDetail/?pid=000000000030352037

 

Expensive! However some libraries have a subscription to BSI and you will be able to browse in the library. A few libraries allow remote access via their website.

Edited by nicknorman
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20 minutes ago, theonlyhenry said:

Still no clearer. So much for helpful boaters.

I feel a block coming up.....................

 

Well with an attitude like that expect blocks coming your way too...a boat gas safe Registered person had pointed you in the right direction for a definitive answer. If you want spoon feeding maybe you need to pay a professional to carry out work you are unqualified to do yourself. 

  • Greenie 1
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10 hours ago, theonlyhenry said:

 I understand that the gas pipe must run at a higher level than any adjacent cables.....

 

So, out of interest, can those people who understand the RCD explain if this is actually true?

If so, why?  (Surely it would be pretty difficult to achieve, in practice, particularly anywhere a gas pipe has to drop down to feed an appliance?).

Clearly it is not a requirement for older boats only needing to comply with BSS regulations.

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11 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Clearly it is not a requirement for older boats only needing to comply with BSS regulations.

BSS regs = Electric cables can actually be attached to the gas pipes AS LONG AS they are double insulated - ie Insulated and sheathed 'multicore' and not just single core wires. However if you are fitting out a new boat it is much better to fit it out in compliance with the RCD, or you cannot sell it for 5 years after completion / first putting it in the water.

 

BSS requirement :

 

3.3.2
Are all cables clear of LPG and fuel supply lines?

 

Electrical cables must be installed clear of LPG
and fuel supply lines unless they are in a conduit
made of non‐conducting material.

NOTE – this check applies to both a.c. and d.c. cables.
NOTE – cables confirmed as double insulated (sheathed) cables are not subject to this check.

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39 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

So, out of interest, can those people who understand the RCD explain if this is actually true?

 

No it isn't, which is why I suggested the OP actually familiarises themselves with the RCD and the standards it cites. In addition to the ISO Nick mentions about, PD 54823:2016 is also mentioned and cover this exact point IIRC. Priced at £103.00 . 

 

PD 54823:2016

Guidance for the design, commissioning and maintenance of LPG systems in small craft

 

https://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDetail/?pid=000000000030250720

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I have a Pdf of the ISO 10239 (2012)  which I am happy to email to anyone who want a copy.

I have previously posted it on the forum but as Pdf's are no longer allowed on the forum that option is no longer available.

 

The latest version is 2017 which no doubts contains some 'tweaks' but I would suggest that the 2012 will be a good starting point.

 

On MtB's point :-

 

Current standards

There is some confusion emanating from a misunderstanding as there are two different standards with which gas installations may comply for LPG installations on boats, yachts and other vessels. With effect from March 2016, standards PD 54823(1) and BS EN ISO 10239(2) are complementary in their structure and detail. BS EN ISO 10239 is for new installations and additions to existing installations, whereas PD 54823 is for guidance of system design, commissioning and maintenance.

 

The RCD requires certification to the ISO 10239(2) standards.
 

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16 hours ago, theonlyhenry said:

I'm fitting out a new sailaway and will need to run a gas pipe in case of future requirements. I understand that the gas pipe must run at a higher level than any adjacent cables, does anyone know where I can find definitive regulations on this subject?

 

 

If you wish to be compliant with the Recreational Craft Directive (which you must if you intend to CE mark your finished boat) then these are the applicable standards.

https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/37504

download the pdf linked to on this page.

 

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5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I have a Pdf of the ISO 10239 (2012)  which I am happy to email to anyone who want a copy.

I have previously posted it on the forum but as Pdf's are no longer allowed on the forum that option is no longer available.

 

The latest version is 2017 which no doubts contains some 'tweaks' but I would suggest that the 2012 will be a good starting point.

 

On MtB's point :-

 

Current standards

There is some confusion emanating from a misunderstanding as there are two different standards with which gas installations may comply for LPG installations on boats, yachts and other vessels. With effect from March 2016, standards PD 54823(1) and BS EN ISO 10239(2) are complementary in their structure and detail. BS EN ISO 10239 is for new installations and additions to existing installations, whereas PD 54823 is for guidance of system design, commissioning and maintenance.

 

The RCD requires certification to the ISO 10239(2) standards.
 

Also worth bearing in mind that there are some conflicts between the BSS and the ISO - in particular, whilst the ISO allows soldered joints in pipework, this is absolutely disallowed in the BSS. So obviously one has to be compliant with the more restrictive standard which, in this case, is the BSS.

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7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

BSS regs = Electric cables can actually be attached to the gas pipes AS LONG AS they are double insulated - ie Insulated and sheathed 'multicore' and not just single core wires. 

 

BSS requirement :

 

3.3.2
Are all cables clear of LPG and fuel supply lines?

 

Electrical cables must be installed clear of LPG
and fuel supply lines unless they are in a conduit
made of non‐conducting material.

NOTE – this check applies to both a.c. and d.c. cables.
NOTE – cables confirmed as double insulated (sheathed) cables are not subject to this check.

This doesn't say that the cable must be multicore.  Double insulated (sheathed) single core cable is available.

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5 minutes ago, Tacet said:

This doesn't say that the cable must be multicore.  Double insulated (sheathed) single core cable is available.

Thats right but cant think I have see any sheathed single core multi strand flex. comon in house wiring with solid core

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Just a point of order chaps. Boats dont HAVE to comply with the RCD always do they? I thought if the boat was over five years old when you sold it after completion it didnt need one?? My last boat didnt have one even though it was not very old. I sold it on with zero problem without RCD very very easily at full market value. Its true to say that many people dont know or have ever heard of RCD and many more dont give a hoot.

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9 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Just a point of order chaps. Boats dont HAVE to comply with the RCD always do they? I thought if the boat was over five years old when you sold it after completion it didnt need one?? My last boat didnt have one even though it was not very old. I sold it on with zero problem without RCD very very easily at full market value. Its true to say that many people dont know or have ever heard of RCD and many more dont give a hoot.

It has all changed with later versions of the RCD.

 

If you make 'major changes' particularly those affecting safety or emissions (ie new engine, changes to gas system, changes to ballast/stabiklity etc) then the boat must have a Post Construction Survey and be issued with a Post Construction Certificate

 

 

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8 hours ago, nicknorman said:

The RCD comprises a number of different standards documents, according to topic. For lpg it’s BS EN ISO 10239

 

https://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDetail/?pid=000000000030352037

 

Expensive! However some libraries have a subscription to BSI and you will be able to browse in the library. A few libraries allow remote access via their website.

Thanks for this useful advice.

I'll start there.

 

44 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Bad attitude.

If you feel that way, just shove off and never darken our door again.

Just to be clear. Are you speaking for the whole community ?

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