portable generator

[Karl]

Hi all. I am thinking of buying a small Generator such as a Honda to use when away from electric hook up. I have been told to start the engine for a couple of hours a day to keep the batteries up but wonder would I be better with a small generator. Is it cost effective apposed to starting the engine every day ? Also can I plug direct to the mains hook up socket on the boat ? I have been told there can be earthing problems and causes the hull to rot !!!!!!! Foe what the generator would cost ( £1000 ) part of me thinks that buys a lot of diesel to run the boat engine a couple of hours a day when out on the canals and also the extra space it would take up and the worry some low life would take it away !!!!!!!!!!!

Edited October 28, 2019 by Karl

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Karl said:

Hi all. I am thinking of buying a small Generator such as a Honda to use when away from electric hook up. I have been told to start the engine for a couple of hours a day to keep the batteries up but wonder would I be better with a small generator. Is it cost effective apposed to starting the engine every day ? Also can I plug direct to the mains hook up socket on the boat ? I have been told there can be earthing problems and causes the hull to rot !!!!!!! Foe what the generator would cost ( £1000 ) part of me thinks that buys a lot of diesel to run the boat engine a couple of hours a day when out on the canals and also the extra space it would take up and the worry some low life would take it away !!!!!!!!!!!

I would worry more about how you can safely store both the generator and the cans of petrol so as to be BSS complaint.

 

If you do go ahead - remember to run the generator on the bank-side and NOT on the boat.

 

 

[Dr Bob]

26 minutes ago, Karl said:

 I have been told to start the engine for a couple of hours a day to keep the batteries up

If you are living off grid for significant periods then you need to pay close attention to your batteries and power consumption.

From the wording you use here, it sounds like battery management is new to you. I would first invest in a battery monitor (ie Victron BMV or NASA etc) and then think about the genny.

Read Wotever's primer.

Some clever person will post a link shortly (Alan.....?)

[mrsmelly]

28 minutes ago, Karl said:

Hi all. I am thinking of buying a small Generator such as a Honda to use when away from electric hook up. I have been told to start the engine for a couple of hours a day to keep the batteries up but wonder would I be better with a small generator. Is it cost effective apposed to starting the engine every day ? Also can I plug direct to the mains hook up socket on the boat ? I have been told there can be earthing problems and causes the hull to rot !!!!!!! Foe what the generator would cost ( £1000 ) part of me thinks that buys a lot of diesel to run the boat engine a couple of hours a day when out on the canals and also the extra space it would take up and the worry some low life would take it away !!!!!!!!!!!

You will get mixed replies. I dont use a gennie, I use the engine. Others mess about with petrol etc etc. I reckon its a matter of personal choice. Some people polish brass for instance and life is way too short to do that, its all a choice thing.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

If you are living off grid for significant periods then you need to pay close attention to your batteries and power consumption.

From the wording you use here, it sounds like battery management is new to you. I would first invest in a battery monitor (ie Victron BMV or NASA etc) and then think about the genny.

Read Wotever's primer.

Some clever person will post a link shortly (Alan.....?)

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/95003-battery-charging-primer/&tab=comments#comment-2100390

[Sea Dog]

26 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Some people polish brass for instance and life is way too short to do that, its all a choice thing.

I may be back to explain why you're absolutely wrong about this Tim, but I have 2 more cannons to do before I tackle the ship's bell and I may need to pop ashore for some more 'wadpol' (there's a name from the past for yer!) ...

[Glynn]

Run the engine. £1000 is a lot of diesel and you get hot water by running the engine.

[doratheexplorer]

Don't run your engine and don't pay £1000 for a generator.  My first generator was £55 second hand and did the job lovely, charging my batteries through the hookup lead.  You also get the benefit of being able to use high wattage appliances without working your inverter and batteries at all.  The final benefit is that you're minimising the wear and tear on your engine, which is probably the most expensive single item on your boat.

[doratheexplorer]

Also: Another excellent benefit is redundancy.  It's a very good idea to have more than one way to charge your batteries.  If you're solely reliant on your engine, then what ya gonna do if something goes wrong with it which will take more than a day or two to fix?  Potentially you'll have to sit in darkness or bugger up your batteries.  With my set up I can live happily for weeks with a broken engine if I need to.

 

[Momac]

On 28/10/2019 at 10:46, Alan de Enfield said:

I would worry more about how you can safely store both the generator and the cans of petrol so as to be BSS compliant.

Most people  remove the portable generator and petrol can from the boat for the day of the BSS test. 

[Dr Bob]

Petrol and botes just don't mix. If you don't follow guidelines then you are asking for trouble. In the winter petrol can contain 12-13% butane which is invisible and heavier than air. Open a container of petrol on the counter deck and that butane will flash off and roll down the stairs into the boat and bilges. The rules for the BSS are there for a reason. 

[Alan de Enfield]

9 hours ago, MartynG said:

Most people  remove the portable generator and petrol can from the boat for the day of the BSS test. 

 

I suppose that at least stops you dying on 1 day every 4 years.

Rather a stupid way of running your life.

Prats like that are prime candidates for the Darwin awards and I have no sympathy for them when the 'expected' happens.

 

A bit like you have bald tyres on your car but rather than spend any money you borrow your mates wheels for the day when your MOT is due.

 

[doratheexplorer]

26 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Petrol and botes just don't mix. If you don't follow guidelines then you are asking for trouble. In the winter petrol can contain 12-13% butane which is invisible and heavier than air. Open a container of petrol on the counter deck and that butane will flash off and roll down the stairs into the boat and bilges. The rules for the BSS are there for a reason. 

Many many boats run entirely on petrol.  Also, many many (almost all?) boats use butane or propane.  Should we all stop using these things? 

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I suppose that at least stops you dying on 1 day every 4 years.

Rather a stupid way of running your life.

Prats like that are prime candidates for the Darwin awards and I have no sympathy for them when the 'expected' happens.

 

A bit like you have bald tyres on your car but rather than spend any money you borrow your mates wheels for the day when your MOT is due.

 

From the BSS website:

 

These are the core points that should never be forgotten.

• Never install a portable generator permanently or make unauthorised modifications that are not supported by the manufacturer, or proprietary component supplier.

• Never run generators on the boat, or on the bank near to doors, vents, windows and hatches. If you can smell exhaust fumes in the boat, it could mean the cabin is also filling with deadly carbon monoxide.

• Never refuel any generator anywhere aboard the boat; take it to the bank and ensure you are a safe distance from other boats and potential sources of ignition.

 

Nothing particularly onerous.

[dor]

The point is there are specific requirements for storage of petrol and gas.

keeping a genie and a can of petrol, like so many do, inside the boat is asking for trouble.

As the poster above removes his petrol for the BSS, it clearly isn’t stored in a suitable place.

 I’ve seen a cruiser with the side blown out after a petrol incident, which put the hapless owner in hospital for a while; he was lucky to survive.

[mrsmelly]

6 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Many many boats run entirely on petrol.  Also, many many (almost all?) boats use butane or propane.  Should we all stop using these things? 

I think the difference here is that those boats using petrol engines are designed to do so and comply. Also gas instalations are built with safety in mind. Buying a petrol gennie and storing petrol anywhere in plastic containers most certainly does not. What many people do not understand is that should the worst happen such use of a gennie and petrol storage that doesnt comply is an instant cop out for insurance companies.

[doratheexplorer]

Just now, dor said:

The point is there are specific requirements for storage of petrol and gas.

keeping a genie and a can of petrol, like so many do, inside the boat is asking for trouble.

As the poster above removes his petrol for the BSS, it clearly isn’t stored in a suitable place.

 I’ve seen a cruiser with the side blown out after a petrol incident, which put the hapless owner in hospital for a while; he was lucky to survive.

Quite agree, it's really not that difficult on many boats to store the petrol and the generator outside.

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

I think the difference here is that those boats using petrol engines are designed to do so and comply. Also gas instalations are built with safety in mind. Buying a petrol gennie and storing petrol anywhere in plastic containers most certainly does not. What many people do not understand is that should the worst happen such use of a gennie and petrol storage that doesnt comply is an instant cop out for insurance companies.

That point wasn't made by Dr Bob,  he just said petrol and boats don't mix.  It's not true.  However, if you don't follow the common sense guidelines on generators and petrol, you only have yourself to blame when things go wrong.

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Quite agree, it's really not that difficult on many boats to store the petrol and the generator outside.

In a specific locker built to the same requirements as a LPG locker and with 'drains' running overboard.

 

Was it last year (or the year before) when the boat exploded at Burton Waters after having 'filled up'  with petrol, the vapour had sunk 'into' the boat and as the boat engine was started and that boat, two others, and the refuelling 'island' was destroyed.

I suppose he didn't use his bilge blowers (mandatory on petrol boats)

 

The flames spread from the boat to the Stella Maris. The two fuel pumps, jetty and two trees were also on fire, and thick black smoke could be seen above the marina.

The fuel pumps are expected to be back in operation within the next two weeks.

The managing director of Burton Waters Boat Sales, Adam Cox, explained what happened.

“What happened was that a visiting boat came and was fuelled up and then the man came to pay. It was nearly 20 minutes later that he started the boat up and at that point he saw there was a fire on board so he quickly gets off,” he said.

“Our fire safety team tried to deal with the fire at first but it was just too fierce but the firefighters were here really quickly. Thankfully, no-one was hurt,” added Cox.

Firefighters used special pumps to prevent the boats from sinking.

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[Dr Bob]

6 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Quite agree, it's really not that difficult on many boats to store the petrol and the generator outside.

That point wasn't made by Dr Bob,  he just said petrol and boats don't mix.  It's not true.  However, if you don't follow the common sense guidelines on generators and petrol, you only have yourself to blame when things go wrong.

......and the problem is that a lot of peeps dont follow the rules.

I stand by my statement that botes and petrol do not mix. We had a lumpy water bote with an outboard for the tender. Managing the petrol was a big issue. Peeps dont realise just how dangerous petrol is. Yes loads of boats do have petrol engines and they introduce a real hazard hence lots of rules about construction etc......ie bilge blowers. People then put gennys on board and dont follow the rules.

I went into Midland Chandlers yesterday to see if they had a bilge blower. "no call for it on the inland waterways" I was told. All the marine based chandlers sell 'em.

At the end of the day most of the botes on the canals are diesel based which is far more sensible.

 

[Nightwatch]

On 28/10/2019 at 11:45, Sea Dog said:

I may be back to explain why you're absolutely wrong about this Tim, but I have 2 more cannons to do before I tackle the ship's bell and I may need to pop ashore for some more 'wadpol' (there's a name from the past for yer!) ...

Bluebell!

[doratheexplorer]

27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

In a specific locker built to the same requirements as a LPG locker and with 'drains' running overboard.

 

 

 

That's one way to do it but it's not mandatory under BSS

[dmr]

Lots and lots of boaters use petrol generators. We did it briefly while we got the injection pump rebuilt and I really didn't like it.

I saw a boat that had experienced a petrol file though we arrived just after the fire had been put out. There was very little left of the boat but nobody was hurt. It was really scary as the fire started as the boat was approaching Barnton tunnel, a few minutes later and it would have been horrible.

 

Lots and lots of boats use their engines to charge batteries, this also makes hot water and can even propel the boat along the canal at the same time if so desired.

When you get your next boat find one with a TravelPower.

 

...............Dave

[doratheexplorer]

Lots and lots of boaters use solid fuel stoves.  These cause more serious incidents relating to CO and fires than petrol use.

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

That's one way to do it but it's not mandatory under BSS

The last 'note' highlighted in red appears to be somewhat unusual - you don't see it 'stored' but the examiner must mark it as 'storage compliant'.

 

Any locker used to store outboard engines or portable
combustion engines with integral petrol or LPG tanks must be:
• drained to the outside of the hull from, at, or close to the
bottom of the locker; and,
• secure and constructed of a material of the required
thickness, in good condition; and,
• free from objects that could block the drain, damage the
petrol/LPG tank/cylinder or cause petrol/LPG vapour to
ignite; and,
• fuel/LPG‐tight to an equal or greater height that the top of
the cap for the petrol tank or valve of the LPG cylinder; and,
• self‐draining and the drain hole must have a minimum
internal diameter of 12mm (½in) and must not be blocked.
The locker must not open into any engine, battery or electrical
equipment space.
The drain line material including connections must be complete
and in good condition.
NOTE ‐ these are identical storage arrangements for LPG cylinders the detail of which is to be found in
Part 7 sections 7.1–7.5.
NOTE – outboard or portable combustion engines not stored at the time of the examination, for
example, generators or outboards running or connected, must be recorded as compliant.

[doratheexplorer]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The last 'note' highlighted in red appears to be somewhat unusual - you don't see it 'stored' but the examiner must mark it as 'storage compliant'.

 

Any locker used to store outboard engines or portable
combustion engines with integral petrol or LPG tanks must be:
• drained to the outside of the hull from, at, or close to the
bottom of the locker; and,
• secure and constructed of a material of the required
thickness, in good condition; and,
• free from objects that could block the drain, damage the
petrol/LPG tank/cylinder or cause petrol/LPG vapour to
ignite; and,
• fuel/LPG‐tight to an equal or greater height that the top of
the cap for the petrol tank or valve of the LPG cylinder; and,
• self‐draining and the drain hole must have a minimum
internal diameter of 12mm (½in) and must not be blocked.
The locker must not open into any engine, battery or electrical
equipment space.
The drain line material including connections must be complete
and in good condition.
NOTE ‐ these are identical storage arrangements for LPG cylinders the detail of which is to be found in
Part 7 sections 7.1–7.5.
NOTE – outboard or portable combustion engines not stored at the time of the examination, for
example, generators or outboards running or connected, must be recorded as compliant.

Does it say anywhere that they must be stored in a locker?

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Does it say anywhere that they must be stored in a locker?

They can be stored on an 'open deck' where vapours / fuel can have an "unimpeded flow overboard".

 

I would suggest that where there are loose 'deck-boards' (where the vapour/fuel could run into the cracks and potentially into the bilges) these would be a failure.

But knowing the inconsistencies of examiners it would be 'hit or miss'.

 

BSS :

Are all portable petrol tanks stored, when not in use, to ensure that any leaking fuel or escaping vapour will not enter the interior of the vessel?