Battery State on MPPT changed from Bulk to Off?

[Unicorn Stampede]

Afternoon!

 

We've had a MPPT 100/30 fit on our narrowboat boat for three months now, alongside 2 Victron 115w solar panels and had no issues. We also have several Victron 110ah Batteries. We noticed today that the solar wasn't coming in from the app even though the sun is out.

 

The bulk light is flashing and on the app it says the battery state is Off. Previous it shows its on Bulk.

 

We've done nothing different from yesterday to today, and the app was showing some solar this morning being drawn for three hours and then nothing?

 

Is there likely an issue with the MPPT or the connection to the batteries?

[rusty69]

Can you measure the battery voltage directly at the battery?

 

Unless you are using the App to measure it remotely, and are not actually present. Maybe someone has knicked you panels,or moved your boat beneath a tree.

Edited October 20, 2019 by rusty69
splellilling

[ditchcrawler]

Just now, rusty69 said:

Can you measure the measure the battery voltage directly at the battery?

 

Unless you are using the App to measure it remotely, and are not actually present. Maybe someone has knicked you panels,or move your boat beneath a tree.

Or just a bad connection to the panels

[rusty69]

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Or just a bad connection to the panels

Yep, could be.I had one of those last week.

[Unicorn Stampede]

I have a feeling it might be a bad connection truthfully... We had the work initially done by a local boat electrician and then since spoken to several boaters which makes us heavily believe the work is of poor quality. I've been reading all I can to bring myself up to speed but hoped to find a quick answer while I tinker.

 

I've checked the Batts using a portable checker I ad-hoc'd together and they're on 12.5v currently. 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Unicorn Stampede

[rusty69]

7 minutes ago, Unicorn Stampede said:

 

I've checked the Batts using a portable checker I ad-hoc'd together and they're on 12.5v currently. 

If you mean a voltmeter, you can then set it on the correct range and measure the panel output voltage.

[Unicorn Stampede]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

If you mean a voltmeter, you can then set it on the correct range and measure the panel output voltage.

Ah, ive only used it to check volts on the batteries. Didn't think to try it on the panels!

[Unicorn Stampede]

My volt meter ain't up to scratch. Need a real one, not one I've hacked together. Regardless we were planning on adjusting the panels because of another issue discovered yesterday.

 

I didn't realise that the electrician had grounded the negative to the boat rather than using a connector (jack plug?).

 

This in turn meant no negative was plugged into the MPPT, which the manual says won't give accurate readings.. so was gonna need to buy a bunch of plugs, splice the cabling onto the plug and then connect it 'properly' (and feed the negative into the MPPT).

[Sea Dog]

10 minutes ago, Unicorn Stampede said:

My volt meter ain't up to scratch. Need a real one, not one I've hacked together. Regardless we were planning on adjusting the panels because of another issue discovered yesterday.

 

I didn't realise that the electrician had grounded the negative to the boat rather than using a connector (jack plug?).

 

This in turn meant no negative was plugged into the MPPT, which the manual says won't give accurate readings.. so was gonna need to buy a bunch of plugs, splice the cabling onto the plug and then connect it 'properly' (and feed the negative into the MPPT).

Eek! There shouldn't be anything employing a negative return through the hull - do make sure that he hasn't done this elsewhere too.  Whilst this is common in vehicle wiring it's a boating "no-no"" all your systems should be 2 wire (positive and negative).

 

 The connection to the panel which you say looks like a jack plug is an mc4 connector, You need specific tools to do those right.

 

Sounds like you need on-line help from someone who knows all of the above.  Also sounds like the folk that queried the ability of your "electrician" are not wrong!

Edited October 20, 2019 by Sea Dog
mc4 bit

[Unicorn Stampede]

9 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Eek! There shouldn't be anything employing a negative return through the hull - do make sure that he hasn't done this elsewhere too.  Whilst this is common in vehicle wiring it's a boating "no-no"" all your systems should be 2 wire (positive and negative).

 

 The connection to the panel which you say looks like a jack plug is an mc4 connector, You need specific tools to do those right.

 

Sounds like you need on-line help from someone who knows all of the above.  Also sounds like the folk that queried the ability of your "electrician" are not wrong!

I assume it's going to be harder because the electrician has cut the end off the port which fits into the mc4 connector so he can ground it to the boat?

 

I was going to ring him on Monday and have a conversation around his work, but based on what he's done I'm not sure I'll gain anything if he returns a second time around... We are moving in the direction of his work so could get there in a few days but we have just stopped at sowerby bridge (shire cruisers) so we might see if they can help.

[notts_alan]

Don't bother phoning him , just buy a bag of mc4 connectors and do it yourself , it's fairly easy .

What has he used to connect as a negative to mppt panel input ? Surely not a link to hull.

[Unicorn Stampede]

1 minute ago, notts_alan said:

Don't bother phoning him , just buy a bag of mc4 connectors and do it yourself , it's fairly easy .

What has he used to connect as a negative to mppt panel input ? Surely not a link to hull.

Yeah. The type of link you'd put on a battery, but hooped to a nut of the aluminium frame that's supporting the solar panel

That frame then connects to roof of the boat

Edited October 20, 2019 by Unicorn Stampede
Adjusted wording

[Unicorn Stampede]

For those curious. 

 

Single positive wire feeds from MPPT up from shore line socket and then spliced into two wires.

 

Each wire then connects to the positive through a mc4 connector and the negative is fed back onto the aluminium frame via the nut.

 

When the job was organised we asked to both panels and the MPPT to be done for us and said he could make the adjustments needed to ensure entry etc. He supplied that shore line connector and he didn't want to use the one we had.

 

He very much operates as a boat electrician with call out breakdowns and operating on the canal side so we had no reason to believe there would be issues of bad practise etc. ?

[rusty69]

So, there is no negative input from the solar panel to the MPPT controller then or have you removed it?

[Unicorn Stampede]

11 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

So, there is no negative input from the solar panel to the MPPT controller then or have you removed it?

There's no negative input from the solar to the MPPT. It's connected instead to the aluminium frame that supports the solar panels. The frame in turn is bolted to the boat.

 

Edit: I never removed it. It was never connected. 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Unicorn Stampede
Clarity around negative to mppt

[rusty69]

Just now, Unicorn Stampede said:

There's no negative input from the solar to the MPPT. It's connected instead to the aluminium frame that supports the solar panels. The frame in turn is bolted to the boat.

Then I can't understand how it could work.

[Alan de Enfield]

This (alleged) electrician - he is not 'promoting' himself as a marine / boat electrician is he ?

 

He needs 'outing' before he does something really dangerous and kills someone.

Boats electrics are not the same as cars or houses.

 

There are ISO Standards that should be adhered to for wiring boats :

 

For 12v systems :

 

INTERNATIONAL
STANDARD
ISO 10133

Small craft — Electrical systems —
Extra-low-voltage d.c. installations

 

For 240v (mains) systems

 

INTERNATIONAL
STANDARD
ISO 13297

Small craft — Electrical systems —
Alternating current installations

[Unicorn Stampede]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

This (alleged) electrician - he is not 'promoting' himself as a marine / boat electrician is he ?

 

He needs 'outing' before he does something really dangerous and kills someone.

Boats electrics are not the same as cars or houses.

 

There are ISO Standards that should be adhered to for wiring boats :

 

For 12v systems :

 

INTERNATIONAL
STANDARD
ISO 10133

Small craft — Electrical systems —
Extra-low-voltage d.c. installations

 

For 240v (mains) systems

 

INTERNATIONAL
STANDARD
ISO 13297

Small craft — Electrical systems —
Alternating current installations

Aye he is.

 

Runs a boat hire company, does engineering work, over plating, electrics. The full shebang. That's why we went to him initially. 

 

Edit: he runs the company, did the quote for it and I met with him on day when job was carried out

7 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Then I can't understand how it could work.

I can't answer that - it's been working for a couple of months now and giving us energy to keep the Batts ticking, until now. The MPPT has shifted at times from bulk to absorb and float etc. All without that negative being plugged into the MPPT. I assume it being grounded to the hull has allowed it to work?

Edited October 20, 2019 by Unicorn Stampede

[Alan de Enfield]

36 minutes ago, Unicorn Stampede said:

Single positive wire feeds from MPPT up from shore line socket and then spliced into two wires.

 

Really ?

 

He is running a 230v AC live supply into the MPPT controller ?

Where does the 'neutral / negative' wire in the 230v plug connect to ? (The hull ?)

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Really ?

 

He is running a 230v AC live supply into the MPPT controller ?

Where does the 'neutral / negative' wire in the 230v plug connect to ? (The hull ?)

I assumed that he was using the plug socket as an entry point into the boat. 

Edited October 20, 2019 by rusty69
add word

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I assumed that he was using the plug as an entry point into the boat. 

I think that this is now beyond "internet diagnosis" and the OP needs to find a 'proper', BOAT ELECTRICIAN (one that comes recommended)

[Unicorn Stampede]

7 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I assumed that he was using the plug socket as an entry point into the boat. 

Correct. The positive feeds into the shore line plug socket and then into the MPPT. The negative is grounded to the hull. 

 

I'll ask shire cruisers tomorrow and see if they can help / direct us. I've not been able to find someone mobile because of our location unfortunately.

 

Quite annoying having spent all that cash on the assumption they wouldn't get something I can now see as the 'basics' right, because they have a whole business around narrowboat electrics, engineering, welding etc.

[rusty69]

37 minutes ago, Unicorn Stampede said:

I can't answer that - it's been working for a couple of months now and giving us energy to keep the Batts ticking, until now. The MPPT has shifted at times from bulk to absorb and float etc. All without that negative being plugged into the MPPT. I assume it being grounded to the hull has allowed it to work

I can only assume, as you say the negative from panel to hull is a common connection between battery negative and MPPT PV negative.

Edited October 20, 2019 by rusty69

[stegra]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

I can only assume, as you say the negative from panel to hull is a common connection between battery negative and MPPT PV negative.

I was about to say exactly that when your post popped up. However, if there's any electronicy wizardry between the two negatives, that may have been damaged and thus causing the problem. 

[Chewbacka]

This type of sorry tale just reinforces my belief that you need to learn how to do these jobs yourself.  Unfortunately this makes it harder for canal side businesses to survive, as they will get less work, but then maybe the quicker the bad businesses go under the better.