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Cheap LiFePO4 BMS?


jetzi

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2 minutes ago, redwing said:

How is your alternator controller performing? If I was starting again I might have asked you if you could've helped me make one, but to be honest it looked at bit beyond my capabilities at the time. I'm assuming it does the same job as the Mastervolt Alpha. 

It’s performing great, thanks. I normally leave it on “slow charge” which limits the field current to a max of 2A, that equates to about 95A at cruising speed and 70A at idle. On fast charge it goes to 175A but fairly soon, due to my set limiting temperature of 90C, it’s around 120A and it backs off to the 2A field current limit if the engine rpm gets low, to avoid loading up the engine and belt at low rpm. It picks up the SoC from the BMV via the BMS and goes to float at the selected SoC. Quite boring really, I haven’t tweaked the code this year!

 

In terms of the complexity, I started off with an off the shelf alternator controller chip that does most of the work, the microcontroller just feeds it with the required regulated voltage and the max field current, it does the rest including reporting rpm, actual field current etc. all done over LIN, so once you have the LIN interface working the rest is quite easy.

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1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

 

 It picks up the SoC from the BMV via the BMS and goes to float at the selected SoC. 

 

 

Just a point of minor interest, possibly for those who also use solar charging:

 

Like you, I was using a BMV712 to control the point when the charging stopped. In my case when the SoC got to 85%, the BMV712 would switch off the MPPTs).

I came across this issue partly because the BMV712 had strayed about 10% out of true, in terms of its SoC value for the batteries.

The problem was that this inaccuracy meant that the actual SoC got up to about 95%, which I never normally want to do.

I'm not sure how the error crept in (I synchronise it at least once a month), but it did make me think that for day to day charging, I should add an extra parameter to stop the charging at around 80-85% SoC. 

 

So what I did was to reduce the absorption charge voltage on the MPPTs from 14.4v to about 13.8v. 

I had to have it set high during the winter because I was using engine charging, and if the MPPT charging voltages are set much below 14.2v they will go into float charge too early in the process, because the engine is putting in 90 amps and so it is pushing up the voltage.

 

So I lowered the absorption charging voltage from 14.2v to about 13.8v.  This will be no good in the winter as explained above, but at the moment I'm not doing any engine charging. Even on days when I cruise, there is more than enough solar charge that I dont need the engine, not even for hot water, so all my B2Bs are almost never used. 

 

But anyway, I was looking for a backup method to stop the MPPT charging at around 80% SoC. I no longer feel 100% safe just relying on my SoC monitoring system, which I've discovered can become inaccurate faster than expected. 

So I've found if I set the MPPTs absorption charge to about 13.8v, they will go into float when the SoC is between 75 and 85%. Its not very accurate because the charging varies wildly (every time a cloud covers the sun, for example). 

It appears that if the MPPTs are throwing in say 90 amps, the float voltage of 13.8v is reached at say 75% SoC, whereas if the MPPTs are putting in 10 to 20 amps, the float voltage is not reached until the SoC is at say 80-85%. 

 

Its not exact, but at least for the summer months I have a backup system that will stop the daily charge when a reasonable SoC is achieved, and it will not let the batteries get up above 90%.

Its not an issue in winter because I'm mostly engine charging and keeping an eye things during on the whole process, but in summer I feel safer having an extra safeguard of voltage monitoring. 

 

You did describe this issue a while back, but its interesting seeing it in action.

 

 

Edited by Tony1
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17 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Just a point of minor interest, possibly for those who also use solar charging:

 

I stumbled across the issue partly because the BMV712 had strayed about 10% out of true, in terms of its SoC value for the batteries.

Like you, I was using a BMV712 to control the point when the charging stopped. In my case when the SoC got to 85%, the BMV712 would switch off the MPPTs).

The problem was that I think the actual SoC got up to about 95%, which I never normally want to do.

I'm not sure how the error crept in (I synchronise it at least once a month), but it did make me think that for day to day charging, I should add an extra parameter to stop the charging at around 80-85% SoC. 

 

So what I did was to reduce the absorption charge voltage on the MPPTs from 14.4v to about 13.8v. 

I had to have it set high during the winter because I was using engine charging, and if the MPPT charging voltages are set much below 14.2v they will go into float charge too early in the process, because the engine is putting in 90 amps and so it is pushing up the voltage.

 

So I lowered the absorption charging voltage from 14.2v to about 13.8v.  This will be no good in the winter as explained above, but at the moment I'm not doing any engine charging. Even on days when I cruise, there is more than enough solar charge that I dont need the engine, not even for hot water, so all my B2Bs are almost never used. 

 

But anyway, I was looking for a backup method to stop the MPPT charging at around 80% SoC. I no longer feel 100% safe just relying on my SoC monitoring system, which I've discovered can become inaccurate faster than expected. 

So I've found if I set the MPPTs absorption charge to about 13.8v, they will go into float when the SoC is between 75 and 85%. Its not very accurate because the charging varies wildly (every time a cloud covers the sun, for example). 

It appears that if the MPPTs are throwing in say 90 amps, the float voltage is reached at say 75% SoC, whereas if the MPPTs are putting in 10 to 20 amps, the float voltage is not reached until the SoC is at say 80-85%. 

 

Its not exact, but at least for the summer months I have a backup system that will stop the daily charge when a reasonable SoC is achieved, and it will not let the batteries get up above 90%.

Its not an issue in winter because I'm mostly engine charging and keeping an eye things during on the whole process, but in summer I feel safer having an extra safeguard of voltage monitoring. 

 

You did describe this issue a while back, but its interesting seeing it in action.

Yes the BMV does of course drift off, although if it is being problematic for you, you might consider doing the zero offset calibration thing (just ensure that there really is zero current when you do it). And maybe look at current threshold setting. I turned mine right down to zero because I didn’t want it to ignore small currents.

 

I find that when we leave the boat in the marina on shore power for a month (as we’ve just done) the two Ah counting devices (Mastershunt and BMV712) drift off in opposite directions, such that the BMV was showing 56% and the Mastershunt was showing 44%. But I just manually changed the BMV to 50% and later, when I did a full charge, it was within 1% as the batteries actually reached 100% (well, stopped taking charge at 14.3v charge voltage which is my definition of 100%).

 

I don’t think you should worry too much about the 80% thing, the main aim is to avoid taking the cells a long way up the knee. If the cells get to 3.5v, ie 14v, I don’t think that is going to stress them much. Of course if you set 13.8v it will stress them even less, and I suppose if that gives you sufficient Ah then why not? 13.8v held until the current decreases a lot, will likely be well over 90% but so what.

Edited by nicknorman
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8 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Our Lithiums have been in service since March this year. Only being charged by solar panels at the moment. Its far too early to say whether they have been a success, but so far, so good.

 

ETA.I couldn't have done it without a lot of help from people on this forum, so a huge thanks to you. You know who you are.

 

Ditto. I've said it before, but it bears repeating- a big thanks to the ever-patient Nick, Peter, and the others who helped me install my gear.

An incredibly helpful and well informed bunch, with unique expertise that is still hard to find, even in the world of narrowboat marine electricians. 

I've been full time CCing with my lithiums for about 15 months now, and they are an absolute game changer- and even more so when I added extra solar panels. 

Touch wood- electricity is now just something to monitor, and not to actually worry about whether I have enough of it, as I always used to do.

I can remember with the lead acids, each evening at about 5pm I'd be pondering whether I had enough juice left to get me and the fridge through the night, or whether I should do another hour's engine running. 

Best upgrade I've done to the boat, by a country mile.

 

Edited by Tony1
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25 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Yes the BMV does of course drift off, although if it is being problematic for you, you might consider doing the zero offset calibration thing (just ensure that there really is zero current when you do it). And maybe look at current threshold setting. I turned mine right down to zero because I didn’t want it to ignore small currents.

 

I find that when we leave the boat in the marina on shore power for a month (as we’ve just done) the two Ah counting devices (Mastershunt and BMV712) drift off in opposite directions, such that the BMV was showing 56% and the Mastershunt was showing 44%. But I just manually changed the BMV to 50% and later, when I did a full charge, it was within 1% as the batteries actually reached 100% (well, stopped taking charge at 14.3v charge voltage which is my definition of 100%).

 

I don’t think you should worry too much about the 80% thing, the main aim is to avoid taking the cells a long way up the knee. If the cells get to 3.5v, ie 14v, I don’t think that is going to stress them much. Of course if you set 13.8v it will stress them even less, and I suppose if that gives you sufficient Ah then why not? 13.8v held until the current decreases a lot, will likely be well over 90% but so what.

 

I must admit do worry a bit about the 80% daily charging thing.

I know many people say 90% or 95% is fine, but I do recall Dr Bob's posts about how these batteries store such huge amounts of energy, and how they need to be carefully managed when the SoC is getting up to high levels, and my takeaway from that was to stick to an upper limit of 80% SoC for most days, very occasionally going up to 90% if I knew the solar next day was going to be rubbish.  

I've started regarding these things as potentially volatile and even inflammable devices, and trying to be more aware that they hold very large amounts of energy, and this frame of mind encourages me to avoid going over 80 to 85% on a daily basis.

When they do go above 85% (eg for synchronising the BMV) it concerns me, and I dont really feel comfortable until I know they back down to a less stressed state. 

Its quite possible I'm adopting the almost superstitious approach of a 12th century village peasant (although I'm not yet advocating burning any witches) , but generally speaking, the less stressed they are, the better. 

 

I suppose it doesnt help that they are in what used to be the wardrobe, and thus just a few feet from where I sleep. 

Even Ed Shiers feels that the engine bay is fine for lithiums, but how can I read a bedtime story to them if they're out there? 

Its just not civilised.

 

Edited by Tony1
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13 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I must admit do worry a bit about the 80% daily charging thing.

I know many people say 90% or 95% is fine, but I do recall Dr Bob's posts about how these batteries store such huge amounts of energy, and how they need to be carefully managed when the SoC is getting up to high levels, and my takeaway from that was to stick to an upper limit of 80% SoC for most days, very occasionally going up to 90% if I knew the solar next day was going to be rubbish.  

I've started regarding these things as potentially volatile and even inflammable devices, and trying to be more aware that they hold very large amounts of energy, and this frame of mind encourages me to avoid going over 80 to 85% on a daily basis.

When they do go above 85% (eg for synchronising the BMV) it concerns me, and I dont really feel comfortable until I know they back down to a less stressed state. 

Its quite possible I'm adopting the almost superstitious approach of a 12th century village peasant (although I'm not yet advocating burning any witches) , but generally speaking, the less stressed they are, the better. 

 

I suppose it doesnt help that they are in what used to be the wardrobe, and thus just a few feet from where I sleep. 

Even Ed Shiers feels that the engine bay is fine for lithiums, but how can I read a bedtime story to them if they're out there? 

Its just not civilised.

 

Although I have no proper evidence for my opinion, it is that the stressing issues with LiFePO4 batteries relate to physically cramming all those Li ions into the electrode (either the anode or the cathode), AND that the clue to this happening is the traversing up or down the voltage “knee”. So as long as the voltage is kept in the mid range, the actual SoC is less important, and even at 13.6v ( 3.4v per cell) which is way down on the max recommended charge voltage, an SoC of at least 90% is achieved if it is held for a while. Not a problem.

 

You are right that they do hold a huge amount of energy and, like an enthusiastic Labrador puppy, are very keen to release all that energy in a very short time. So short circuit protection is a must. But in terms of going on fire, the perceived wisdom including that from Dr Bob, is that LiFePO4 batteries are pretty difficult to set on fire. Yes ultimately dendrite growth can be a problem but you only get that by charging the battery faster than it likes. At normal temperatures it likes to be charged as fast as you like, it is only at low temperatures that you have to be careful with charge rates. Bearing in mind that you virtually fornicate with your batteries, lack of body temperature warmth is unlikely to be an issue for them.

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1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

Bearing in mind that you virtually fornicate with your batteries

 

What happens in the wardrobe, stays in the wardrobe.

 

But to be honest, it feels more like a gollum/ring type of relationship. 

 

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I completed my lithium battery nest last night, hard 6mm foam sheet sandwiched in epoxy resined glass fibre forming a top lid to the battery box, with a small fan and flexible pipe going to the bottom of the engine bay, powered from the electric fuel pump wiring (ie comes on when engine switched on). Coolish air is gently sucked up from the bottom of the engine bay and wafted into the battery nest to keep it cool. Or I can move the flexi pipe to the top of the engine bay to keep the battery nest warm in winter. Just adding the box has reduced the max battery temperature after a long hot day’s cruise by about 5C to 30C, so I’m hoping the fan will keep it a bit cooler. We’ll see.

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  • 1 month later...

Has anyone else that uses the tyco BDS-A bi-stable relay had problems with it? I've just had a second one fail open circuit (with evidence of overheating). 

 

Only used on the charging side (load side uses a BEP motorised battery switch) and never been switched under load (to my knowledge). Max charging current is around 160a (although we rarely see more than 140a) so it shouldn't be overloaded. I think @nicknorman uses one and can charge at a much high rate than i can! Annoyingly both failures have resulted in blown alternator😡

 

I put the first failure down to poor connection as clear evidence of the connection post and cable overheating with corrosion to the cable. This was probably my fault for reusing old cable and crimped end, and in fairness there were warning signs for several weeks before it failed. All cable replaced with new well made crimps when the relay replaced 6 months ago.

 

No problems until today with sudden failure of all charging when cruising. No prior warning at all, and evidence points to relay itself rather than cable connections. Do I replace with another used one? Or bite the bullet and buy new? Or forget the tyco completely and use something else?

 

Evidence of overheating to internal relay contacts, but no evidence of significant wear, pitting, or corrosion on dismantling.

20220909_150352.jpg.406cbe87a2ff13444919dfa61cb43e57.jpg

 

1820007808_20220909_1620522.jpg.e0eef834dad6b0b2309ed925be95c955.jpg

 

Edited by Tom and Bex
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1 hour ago, Tom and Bex said:

Has anyone else that uses the tyco BDS-A bi-stable relay had problems with it? I've just had a second one fail open circuit (with evidence of overheating). 

 

Only used on the charging side (load side uses a BEP motorised battery switch) and never been switched under load (to my knowledge). Max charging current is around 160a (although we rarely see more than 140a) so it shouldn't be overloaded. I think @nicknorman uses one and can charge at a much high rate than i can! Annoyingly both failures have resulted in blown alternator😡

 

I put the first failure down to poor connection as clear evidence of the connection post and cable overheating with corrosion to the cable. This was probably my fault for reusing old cable and crimped end, and in fairness there were warning signs for several weeks before it failed. All cable replaced with new well made crimps when the relay replaced 6 months ago.

 

No problems until today with sudden failure of all charging when cruising. No prior warning at all, and evidence points to relay itself rather than cable connections. Do I replace with another used one? Or bite the bullet and buy new? Or forget the tyco completely and use something else?

 

Evidence of overheating to internal relay contacts, but no evidence of significant wear, pitting, or corrosion on dismantling.

20220909_150352.jpg.406cbe87a2ff13444919dfa61cb43e57.jpg

 

1820007808_20220909_1620522.jpg.e0eef834dad6b0b2309ed925be95c955.jpg

 

It's not getting rid off heat looking at the damage, but the contacts and connectors are substantial and as you say no burning, strange to say the least 

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6 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It's not getting rid off heat looking at the damage, but the contacts and connectors are substantial and as you say no burning, strange to say the least 

 

Did you check the coil resistance? A partial short in the coil can make it draw more current and overheat, which might explain the damage you're seeing.

 

Alternatively since it's bistable it will only expect a short current pulse on the coil (12V version draws 2.5A, 100ms maximum pulse width in the spec) to turn it on and off, are you applying a longer one (or even a continuous one) which could overheat it?

Edited by IanD
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1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

Did you check the coil resistance? A partial short in the coil can make it draw more current and overheat, which might explain the damage you're seeing.

I think you have to be right, I have taken many failed relays to pieces out of idle curiosity and often corrosion was often found 

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Just now, peterboat said:

I think you have to be right, I have taken many failed relays to pieces out of idle curiosity and often corrosion was often found 

Possible but I suspect overlong drive pulses (or continuous drive?) to the coil are more likely -- or may have caused the overheating which then burned the coil. Coil power during the drive pulse is 30W, it won't stand that for very long...

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On a related note, for those pondering swapping to lithium batteries, I noticed yesterday that Sterling are selling 100Ah lithiums for about £500.

They'll be pretty good quality, there is a decent BMS built in, and you'll get a full guarantee etc in case of cell defects/failures. 

So if you're frugal and could manage on a 300Ah bank (which would give you at least 180-200Ah to play with on a day to day basis), you're in business for a grand and a half - plus a long piece of wire to parallel them with a lead acid battery (or a suitable resistor), plus a battery monitor.

Surely the price is only going to go up, and fairly soon?

Now could be a good time to get into lithiums, methinks....

Edited by Tony1
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Thanks for idea about relay coil, but only driven when it's switched, and only using short pulses as per spec. Relay operated for some time prior to failure today so still remains a mystery. Prior to dismantling, relay could still be heard to click positively when switched on or off. 

 

Edited to add:

Have just checked coil drive connector, and no voltage on terminals until switching, when just a short pulse occurs as expected. 

Edited by Tom and Bex
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2 minutes ago, Tom and Bex said:

Thanks for idea about relay coil, but only driven when it's switched, and only using short pulses as per spec. Relay operated for some time prior to failure today so still remains a mystery. Prior to dismantling, relay could still be heard to click positively when switched on or off. 

Have just checked coil drive connector, and no voltage on terminals until switching, when just a short pulse occurs as expected. 

 

How is the coil drive done? Could it have stuck "on" at some point, for some time (much longer than the spec) if not permanently?

 

Looking at the heat damage (and the 30W coil dissipation when "on") this seems like the most likely cause, since the contacts look fine.

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50 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

On a related note, for those pondering swapping to lithium batteries, I noticed yesterday that Sterling are selling 100Ah lithiums for about £500.

They'll be pretty good quality, there is a decent BMS built in, and you'll get a full guarantee etc in case of cell defects/failures. 

So if you're frugal and could manage on a 300Ah bank (which would give you at least 180-200Ah to play with on a day to day basis), you're in business for a grand and a half - plus a long piece of wire to parallel them with a lead acid battery (or a suitable resistor), plus a battery monitor.

Surely the price is only going to go up, and fairly soon?

Now could be a good time to get into lithiums, methinks....

 

Good call! Weren't they selling for around £1,200 just few months ago, when first launched? 

 

I've just looked up the price of a Tesla Powerwall for the hovel, and its "only" £5.9k. That's for 14kWh of capacity. The Sterling is 1.3kWh, so very similar price per kWh of capacity. 

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6 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Good call! Weren't they selling for around £1,200 just few months ago, when first launched? 

 

I've just looked up the price of a Tesla Powerwall for the hovel, and its "only" £5.9k. That's for 14kWh of capacity. The Sterling is 1.3kWh, so very similar price per kWh of capacity. 

 

Yes, I'm sure they were over a grand each a while back- that's why I was surprised to see them now at £500. 

They were so expensive that they were not, for many people, a feasible option. 

Self-built units looked a far better bet, with an off-the shelf BMS for £50 to £100, plus a plastic box to house them, copper bars, etc etc.  

 

You've been able to get less reputable 100Ah batteries with a BMS for that kind of money for a while now, but not a decent quality name like Sterling. 

I can't understand why their lithiums would fall in price by more than half, when everything else in the world is getting really expensive, but I were buying lithiums now and I wasn't clever at electronics, I'd go for the Sterlings all day long.

 

We know that the 'long wire' parallel/lead acid method works ok for charging them with an existing alternator, as proven by several knowledgeable members here, so at this point I'm starting to think its as good as chance for electrical novices to get into lithiums as we're likely to see for a couple of years. 

 

Especially for the liveaboards with solar panels that work really well with lithiums, they're a proper game changer when it comes to keeping the boat electrics powered. Even today I got a tank of fairly hot water from the solar, although its clear to see that its beginning to wane for this year.

 

 

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No problem with the BDS-A in my system, at least so far. It was new, and not second hand.

 

One thing to check: there is a preferred current direction through the contacts. This doesn't help much when both charge and discharge go through the contactor, but if yours just does charging, make sure it's connected the correct way around. The direction ensures that the magnetic field helps to extinguish the arc (though from your tear down, excessive arcing is not your problem.)

 

MP.

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Just a warning that if you don't connect the Sterling batteries via a battery-to-battery charger the 5 year warranty is invalidated.

 

It'll probably work fine, but you "pays your money and takes your chances."

 

In related news they are about to have a very good 150Ah one going cheap on their clearance section - it was mine and the Bluetooth module died, so they simply replaced the battery with a brand new one under the warranty.  The cells are fine and the BMS works fine, you just can't monitor it over Bluetooth.

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22 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

No problem with the BDS-A in my system, at least so far. It was new, and not second hand.

Good to hear you've had no problems with yours. Maybe I'll try a new one and keep a close eye on it, no way of knowing how a used one has been treated previously. After all the first one lasted 3.5 years, and failure was almost certainly due to poor external connection/cable.

 

16 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

One thing to check: there is a preferred current direction through the contacts.

I'd forgotten about that so something I'll check. Didn't think it would make much difference though if not switching under load?

 

 

2 hours ago, IanD said:

How is the coil drive done? Could it have stuck "on" at some point, for some time (much longer than the spec) if not permanently?

Can't say for certain it's never stuck on, but certainly shouldn't have, and working as expected now. It's controlled by a proprietary sealed unit sold specifically for this purpose:

https://www.solar4rvs.com.au/rec-bi-stable-relay-driver-bslrd-for-bottom-end-sw

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17 hours ago, Tom and Bex said:

Has anyone else that uses the tyco BDS-A bi-stable relay had problems with it? I've just had a second one fail open circuit (with evidence of overheating). 

 

Only used on the charging side (load side uses a BEP motorised battery switch) and never been switched under load (to my knowledge). Max charging current is around 160a (although we rarely see more than 140a) so it shouldn't be overloaded. I think @nicknorman uses one and can charge at a much high rate than i can! Annoyingly both failures have resulted in blown alternator😡

 

I put the first failure down to poor connection as clear evidence of the connection post and cable overheating with corrosion to the cable. This was probably my fault for reusing old cable and crimped end, and in fairness there were warning signs for several weeks before it failed. All cable replaced with new well made crimps when the relay replaced 6 months ago.

 

No problems until today with sudden failure of all charging when cruising. No prior warning at all, and evidence points to relay itself rather than cable connections. Do I replace with another used one? Or bite the bullet and buy new? Or forget the tyco completely and use something else?

 

Evidence of overheating to internal relay contacts, but no evidence of significant wear, pitting, or corrosion on dismantling.

20220909_150352.jpg.406cbe87a2ff13444919dfa61cb43e57.jpg

 

1820007808_20220909_1620522.jpg.e0eef834dad6b0b2309ed925be95c955.jpg

 

Not had any problem with mine so far. I mostly use the alternator in “slow charge” mode so max current is around 100A. We also run the electric kettle at around 180A but that is only short duration of course. 

 

It is a bit of a worry though! I built a load dump device (several large Tranzorb things in parallel) but have yet to wire it up. I’d better do so! Also might be worth checking the temperature of the device from time to time. If it’s getting hot under load, something is amiss!

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31 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Also might be worth checking the temperature of the device from time to time. If it’s getting hot under load, something is amiss!

 

Or even attach an overheat thermostat to it, wired up to sound a buzzer if it trips. Plenty of boiler thermostats around that trip at about 90c.

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