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Cheap LiFePO4 BMS?


jetzi

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8 hours ago, Ex Brummie said:

The more I see of this, the more I'm thinking £225 every 4 years saves an awful lot of headaches.

Then you are looking too much.

It really is the opposite for someone who understands LA batteries and how to charge them properly.

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8 hours ago, Ex Brummie said:

The more I see of this, the more I'm thinking £225 every 4 years saves an awful lot of headaches.

 

If that relates to staying with Lead Acids its more than that. Even with solar a liveaboard with LAs will need to run the engine for long periods to fully charge and optimise the life of LAs at times during the year. This is less likely to be true of a holiday boat that cruises for lots of hours per day and is left with everything turned off when the owner is away. Wear & tear plus fuel costs need adding. It is also not true if the boat is always on a shore line.

 

At present its early adopters, especially those with a technical bent that are using LiFe4Po batteries but I think that within 10 years there will be more being used in boats than lead acids, the fast charge and lack of sulphation and high cyclic life makes them a no-brainer once the cost and control things are sorted. It looks to me as if @nicknorman has the control thing all but sorted and could, if he wished, provide it as a ready to fit system. Probably at  a price lower than the resent commercial offerings.

 

I agree that at present LAs are the logical choice for many, perhaps the majority of boaters but I am sur ethings will change.

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15 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If that relates to staying with Lead Acids its more than that. Even with solar a liveaboard with LAs will need to run the engine for long periods to fully charge and optimise the life of LAs at times during the year. This is less likely to be true of a holiday boat that cruises for lots of hours per day and is left with everything turned off when the owner is away. Wear & tear plus fuel costs need adding. It is also not true if the boat is always on a shore line.

 

At present its early adopters, especially those with a technical bent that are using LiFe4Po batteries but I think that within 10 years there will be more being used in boats than lead acids, the fast charge and lack of sulphation and high cyclic life makes them a no-brainer once the cost and control things are sorted. It looks to me as if @nicknorman has the control thing all but sorted and could, if he wished, provide it as a ready to fit system. Probably at  a price lower than the resent commercial offerings.

 

I agree that at present LAs are the logical choice for many, perhaps the majority of boaters but I am sur ethings will change.

Exactly Tony, for me its the speed of charging from solar that makes them so usable, I had full traction batteries before which are very good, but they are only half as good as the Valence batteries that I replaced them with. The other issue is that for me to use them for drive batteries the weight would nearly sink the boat!

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The hard part of Li battery management is not designing the system.  A number of competent amateurs have shown that can be done, many of them on here.    Most of them though have set out to use a particular set of, often extant, equipment.  Think MP with his A127, Dr Bob needing to avoid warranty issues and Nicknorman with his big alternator and data bus wiring.  This variety alone militates against a simple commercial solution which comes from your local chandlers in a box.

 

The other really hard part is making your design legal for sale and showing that it complies with safety, EMC, ROHS and other consumer and environment protection legislation.  Very little of this can be done outside a well equipped (expensive ) lab.  Gibbo was known to wax lyrical on this and in the Model Engineering field some clever and useful devices have disappeared from the market for similar reasons.

The best we can hope for is an open source description of the system, details and designs for  hardware, and the software code, so that more competent amateurs can build their own.  The American system that Tom and Bex use is one such, though you do have to look really hard for the open source stuff since it can be had commercially in the States, as a part solution.

 

N

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18 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

@nicknorman, now you are getting near putting them in, can you remind us where you are going to put your Li's and what size cables are you using. 

I’m going to put them where the LAs currently are, which is in the engine room (trad stern with engine at the back) on the stbd side swim. The boat builder installed some fairly chunky open topped wooden boxes there.

 

I totally get that installing them in the cabin would be better, but there simply is no where where I’d be allowed to fit them - under the bed is the pumpout tank, and the only other place would be the bottom of the wardrobe, which anyway I don’t think would be big enough.

 

Of course a trad stern engine bay is better than a cruiser or semi-trad engine bay because it is a halfway house between outside and inside temperature-wise. I can’t ever recall seeing the battery temperature (which is displayed on our Masterview panel) ever being below 5C. Might be a different story if we’d visited the boat in the last few week though!
 

So I don’t think low temperature charging will be an issue when the boat is occupied, but anyway the alternator controller and BMS will limit alternator and Combi charge voltages to ensure zero or only slightly positive charge current with batteries at zero or below. Once the engine has been running for a short while it should warm up any cold batteries and also the Mikuni is in the same space, it’s leaked heat should keep extreme chill off the batteries.

 

More of a concern is high engine bay temperature in summer. I’ve obtained, but not yet fitted, a bilge blower fan and some ducting which will also help to keep the alternator temperature down.

 

I will use the existing cabling which is 75mm^2.

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6 minutes ago, BEngo said:

The hard part of Li battery management is not designing the system.  A number of competent amateurs have shown that can be done, many of them on here.    Most of them though have set out to use a particular set of, often extant, equipment.  Think MP with his A127, Dr Bob needing to avoid warranty issues and Nicknorman with his big alternator and data bus wiring.  This variety alone militates against a simple commercial solution which comes from your local chandlers in a box.

 

The other really hard part is making your design legal for sale and showing that it complies with safety, EMC, ROHS and other consumer and environment protection legislation.  Very little of this can be done outside a well equipped (expensive ) lab.  Gibbo was known to wax lyrical on this and in the Model Engineering field some clever and useful devices have disappeared from the market for similar reasons.

The best we can hope for is an open source description of the system, details and designs for  hardware, and the software code, so that more competent amateurs can build their own.  The American system that Tom and Bex use is one such, though you do have to look really hard for the open source stuff since it can be had commercially in the States, as a part solution.

 

N

Yes this is why I have no intention or desire to “go commercial”. Quite happy to share though. The “Data bus” thing is why I’ve included a BMV712 interface into my BMS, so a viable system would be a BMV712 to measure battery current, SoC etc, the BMS which measures cell voltage and battery temperature (just 1 sensor for the whole battery though) and the alternator controller which measures alternator temperature. Although the latter 2 do communicate over CANBUS it could be self contained and not need to be connected to Masterbus.
 

In fact not using the Masterbus data but instead the BMV712 has some advantages - the Mastershunt current data has a very long time constant of about 5 seconds, and you can’t modify the SoC. Neither of those limitations affect the BMV712. So really the only need to connect my system to Masterbus is so that the BMS can adjust the Combi charge voltage and current eg to prevent current flow into cold batteries, whilst allowing lots of current flow with warm batteries when the charge rate switch is set to “fast” and the travelpower is on.

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10 minutes ago, BEngo said:

The hard part of Li battery management is not designing the system.  A number of competent amateurs have shown that can be done, many of them on here.    Most of them though have set out to use a particular set of, often extant, equipment.  Think MP with his A127, Dr Bob needing to avoid warranty issues and Nicknorman with his big alternator and data bus wiring.  This variety alone militates against a simple commercial solution which comes from your local chandlers in a box.

 

The other really hard part is making your design legal for sale and showing that it complies with safety, EMC, ROHS and other consumer and environment protection legislation.  Very little of this can be done outside a well equipped (expensive ) lab.  Gibbo was known to wax lyrical on this and in the Model Engineering field some clever and useful devices have disappeared from the market for similar reasons.

The best we can hope for is an open source description of the system, details and designs for  hardware, and the software code, so that more competent amateurs can build their own.  The American system that Tom and Bex use is one such, though you do have to look really hard for the open source stuff since it can be had commercially in the States, as a part solution.

 

N

I am installing a genny to replace the whispergen, the whispergen had controlled charging so their was no chance of damaging the LIfePo4s, the genny doesnt, so I will be having an alternator made to avoid over voltage as this seems to be the easiest method for my simple system on the leisure bank. The drive batteries will be charged by a built for purpose battery charger, what I have learned over the last four years with LifePo4 batteries is build safe charging in from the beginning and life is easier in the end. Nick is doing just that which is the only way to do it

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19 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

IOf course a trad stern engine bay is better than a cruiser or semi-trad engine bay because it is a halfway house between outside and inside temperature-wise. I can’t ever recall seeing the battery temperature (which is displayed on our Masterview panel) ever being below 5C. Might be a different story if we’d visited the boat in the last few week though!

 

Our batteries are installed under the bed in the rear cabin. The boat was unoccupied and unheated for much of last week, and when we returned the batteries were at 3 degrees, below the cutoff temperature for charging.  Returning and lighting the stove got them above the critical temperature within 24 hours, but even with the rear cabin heated to mid-teens, the batteries have been floating around 5-6 degrees, so not much lee-way. I'd suggest that your location would definitely have stopped you charging for most of the last fortnight. 

 

Given you boat usage, that may not be a problem, but for a 24/7/365 liveaboard, it certainly would be.

 

MP.

 

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18 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I’m going to put them where the LAs currently are, which is in the engine room (trad stern with engine at the back) on the stbd side swim. The boat builder installed some fairly chunky open topped wooden boxes there.

 

I totally get that installing them in the cabin would be better, but there simply is no where where I’d be allowed to fit them - under the bed is the pumpout tank, and the only other place would be the bottom of the wardrobe, which anyway I don’t think would be big enough.

 

Of course a trad stern engine bay is better than a cruiser or semi-trad engine bay because it is a halfway house between outside and inside temperature-wise. I can’t ever recall seeing the battery temperature (which is displayed on our Masterview panel) ever being below 5C. Might be a different story if we’d visited the boat in the last few week though!
 

So I don’t think low temperature charging will be an issue when the boat is occupied, but anyway the alternator controller and BMS will limit alternator and Combi charge voltages to ensure zero or only slightly positive charge current with batteries at zero or below. Once the engine has been running for a short while it should warm up any cold batteries and also the Mikuni is in the same space, it’s leaked heat should keep extreme chill off the batteries.

 

More of a concern is high engine bay temperature in summer. I’ve obtained, but not yet fitted, a bilge blower fan and some ducting which will also help to keep the alternator temperature down.

 

I will use the existing cabling which is 75mm^2.

I was interested in the wiring. 

In our old boat I used 5 meters of 50mm cable to get the power to the inverter box and the charging sources. That was fine for charging at 40-50A. With this new boat, the batteries are still 5 Meters away from the inverter and I carried on with the 50mm cable. It's not enough as not enough current will flow. My alternator is 240A and it will charge the LAs at a good proportion of that but it only seems to want to go to 90-100A down my pitifully small wiring. I'm happy to restrict my charging to 80A continuous as that is 2 hours per day for our 'high' demand and the wires don't get hot....but maybe I will think about rewiring with thicker wires. 

Let me know how you get on with your 75mm cable at high charging currents.

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2 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

Our batteries are installed under the bed in the rear cabin. The boat was unoccupied and unheated for much of last week, and when we returned the batteries were at 3 degrees, below the cutoff temperature for charging.  Returning and lighting the stove got them above the critical temperature within 24 hours, but even with the rear cabin heated to mid-teens, the batteries have been floating around 5-6 degrees, so not much lee-way. I'd suggest that your location would definitely have stopped you charging for most of the last fortnight. 

 

Given you boat usage, that may not be a problem, but for a 24/7/365 liveaboard, it certainly would be.

 

MP.

 

My Leisure batteries have the central heating pipes running the battery box with them for that very reason, the drive batteries live on the swim in insulated boxes, there is a genny in there as well so it can heat the space up for charging purposes.

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5 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

Our batteries are installed under the bed in the rear cabin. The boat was unoccupied and unheated for much of last week, and when we returned the batteries were at 3 degrees, below the cutoff temperature for charging.  Returning and lighting the stove got them above the critical temperature within 24 hours, but even with the rear cabin heated to mid-teens, the batteries have been floating around 5-6 degrees, so not much lee-way. I'd suggest that your location would definitely have stopped you charging for most of the last fortnight. 

 

Given you boat usage, that may not be a problem, but for a 24/7/365 liveaboard, it certainly would be.

 

MP.

 

Blow torch?

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5 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

Our batteries are installed under the bed in the rear cabin. The boat was unoccupied and unheated for much of last week, and when we returned the batteries were at 3 degrees, below the cutoff temperature for charging.  Returning and lighting the stove got them above the critical temperature within 24 hours, but even with the rear cabin heated to mid-teens, the batteries have been floating around 5-6 degrees, so not much lee-way. I'd suggest that your location would definitely have stopped you charging for most of the last fortnight. 

 

Given you boat usage, that may not be a problem, but for a 24/7/365 liveaboard, it certainly would be.

 

MP.


Yes it has been unusually cold of course. But even so, with our engine in the same fairly small space as the batteries, worst case scenario would be to have to run the engine for 30 mins/ an hour with zero charge, whilst the engine warmed the batteries (and let’s remember that Li batteries have much less thermal mass than the equivalent LA batteries).

 

However I think it is important to understand the actual science and not fall into a mantra trap - a corollary being eg that you shouldn’t discharge LA below 50% and thus 49% is catastrophic!

 

The issue with charging Li at low temperatures is that the slow reaction rate results in lithium metal being deposited on the (anode or cathode, can’t remember) which is a BAD THING. But it is not a binary thing. A chemical switch isn’t flicked at some low temperature, rather the lower the temperature, the slower the charging must be in order to prevent Li plating. It isn’t like zero degrees suddenly means the electrolyte is frozen! There is no step change.

 

The spec for my CALB cells says recommended charging 0.5C (300A for us) maximum charge 1C (600A). Minimum charge temperature is -5C. So I take from that that it would at least be acceptable to charge at 300A at -5C. On the limit of the spec, so not something you’d want to do regularly, but ok in extremis. But I don’t intend to get anywhere near that. Firstly -5 seems pretty unlikely considering the amount of engine bay below the water line, and anyway normal (slow) charge rate will be around 85A which is 0.14C. Even so I intend to reduce the charge current below 5C, which is adding in a massive safety margin.

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37 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I was interested in the wiring. 

In our old boat I used 5 meters of 50mm cable to get the power to the inverter box and the charging sources. That was fine for charging at 40-50A. With this new boat, the batteries are still 5 Meters away from the inverter and I carried on with the 50mm cable. It's not enough as not enough current will flow. My alternator is 240A and it will charge the LAs at a good proportion of that but it only seems to want to go to 90-100A down my pitifully small wiring. I'm happy to restrict my charging to 80A continuous as that is 2 hours per day for our 'high' demand and the wires don't get hot....but maybe I will think about rewiring with thicker wires. 

Let me know how you get on with your 75mm cable at high charging currents.


My installation is pretty compact, the 175A alternator, batteries and Combi are all within a few feet of each other. When I start the engine with the existing LA batteries at say 60%, I already get the full 175A or more into the batteries for a short while until the LA batteries choke up with slow reaction rate. Don’t forget that it is the combination of wire gauge and length, and it is the round trip distance so 10 metres for you. If the crow-flies distance is 5 metres, chances are the cable path is less direct and thus over 10m.

 

50mm^2 cable has a resistance of 0.38 milliohms / metre. So even 10 metres is 3.8 milliohms. 3.8milliohms at 100A will drop 0.38v so it’s not too surprising that your charge rate is strangled. Were you to somehow manage the full 240A, that would drop nearly a volt.

 

by contrast I have perhaps 4 metres round trip (because the cabling goes via the isolator and the Mastershunt) at 75mm^2 which is around 1milliohm, roughly 1/4 of the resistance of your circuit.

 

Just to pick up on your point about wire temperature, there are two factors at play, voltage drop and thermal considerations. With a 12v system only a very small voltage drop can be tolerated, as it represents a large proportion of the total. Voltage drop is proportional to cable length, thermal considerations are not. So unless the wire is very short, almost certainly voltage drop will be the dominant consideration and the cable will be operating nowhere near its thermal limit.

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29 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Just to pick up on your point about wire temperature, there are two factors at play, voltage drop and thermal considerations. With a 12v system only a very small voltage drop can be tolerated, as it represents a large proportion of the total. Voltage drop is proportional to cable length, thermal considerations are not. So unless the wire is very short, almost certainly voltage drop will be the dominant consideration and the cable will be operating nowhere near its thermal limit.

It is also worth remembering that the voltage dropped in the cable is an even larger proportion of the charge driving voltage-  the alternator output voltage minus the battery terminal voltage.  If we take a perfectly cabled system with a half flat LA there will be about 12.2V pushing back against the alternator. So we end up with something like 2.2V  doing the work inside the battery.  If we have lost 0.4 V of that somewhere in the cabling there is a significant reduction in the current through the internal resistance.

N

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6 minutes ago, BEngo said:

It is also worth remembering that the voltage dropped in the cable is an even larger proportion of the charge driving voltage-  the alternator output voltage minus the battery terminal voltage.  If we take a perfectly cabled system with a half flat LA there will be about 12.2V pushing back against the alternator. So we end up with something like 2.2V  doing the work inside the battery.  If we have lost 0.4 V of that somewhere in the cabling there is a significant reduction in the current through the internal resistance.

N

Yes, good point.

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55 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

50mm^2 cable has a resistance of 0.38 milliohms / metre. So even 10 metres is 3.8 milliohms. 3.8milliohms at 100A will drop 0.38v so it’s not too surprising that your charge rate is strangled. Were you to somehow manage the full 240A, that would drop nearly a volt.

Thanks for that Nick (and Bengo).

Yes I set the BtoB's to turn off at 14.2V which is around 13.8V at the batteries. Good to hear that we get nowhere near the max operating temp of the wire.

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1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

The spec for my CALB cells says recommended charging 0.5C (300A for us) maximum charge 1C (600A). Minimum charge temperature is -5C. So I take from that that it would at least be acceptable to charge at 300A at -5C

I agree with you on temperature limits. They are not black and white. Chemical reactions in general slow down by 50% with a 10°C drop in temp.

One key piece of info though is temperature rises once you put charge on so charging at say 30A on a 600Ahr bank at 0°C should increase the temp by quite a few degrees in half an hour. I'd be happy charging at 0.05C at 0°C. Maybe I would avoid charging below zero.

We never get that low on ours and as ours is a hybrid, we can rely on the LAs when we get back to a cold boat if it was that cold.

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1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

I agree with you on temperature limits. They are not black and white. Chemical reactions in general slow down by 50% with a 10°C drop in temp.

One key piece of info though is temperature rises once you put charge on so charging at say 30A on a 600Ahr bank at 0°C should increase the temp by quite a few degrees in half an hour. I'd be happy charging at 0.05C at 0°C. Maybe I would avoid charging below zero.

We never get that low on ours and as ours is a hybrid, we can rely on the LAs when we get back to a cold boat if it was that cold.

Looking on the internet suggests that 0.02C is ok at -10C, which for us is 12A. Pretty slow, but then -10C battery temperature is surely very much a worst case once in 10 years scenario. And if we leave the batteries at 50% when leaving the boat, 50% of 600Ah is still plenty to play with before needing to charge.

 

I could look at heating pads but my inclination so far is that it’s probably not necessary.

 

And of course I can get the alternator controller and or Combi to match the current open circuit battery voltage at low temperature so that no current flows into the battery, but any demands from the boat’s services are met by the alternator and or Combi.

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  • 1 month later...

Balancing.

 

I just did a proper top balance of my LiFePO4 cells. Beautiful day here so I charged them up via solar until one cell was full (actually I blinked and it was a little overfull at 3.7V - oops), the other three were at 3.4V at this point. I connected them all in parallel and they averaged out to just below 3.5V. I then used a lab charger to take them all to 3.651V, which was surprisingly fast (~2hours at 5A) since they started almost full.

 

I'm thinking that I should leave them connected in parallel overnight to ensure that they have time to properly sync in charge. Or is this not reallly necessary and if they are 3.65V in parallel then they are equalised?

 

On the other hand, I don't want to leave them full for too long. Particularly since one of the cells started a little overfull. Thoughts?

Edited by jetzi
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When you connect cells at slightly different SoC  in parallel, not much current flows and it can take a long time (several days) for things to equalise, mainly due to the very flat relationship between SoC and voltage. IMO it is better to top balance under charge conditions and either shunt current away from the high cells, or add current to the low cells by means of a (isolated) power supply.

 

I have just the same problem at the moment, I’m installing my 3 x 4 x 200Ah cells. 8 of the cells have been connected in parallel for months, 4 of the cells I have been using at home for software development, and whilst the are reasonably well balanced they are not quite at the same SoC as the other 8.
 

I therefore parallel connected 2 of the balanced cells and one of the other cells for each element of the string, hoping the overall thing will be balanced. There was about 10mV between the set of 8 and the set of 4, but this only resulted in about 1/2 amp flowing. Of course 10mV in terms of SoC for 200Ah cells at around 30% SoC represents a lot of Ah and thus a long time at 1/2A (diminishing).

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1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

When you connect cells at slightly different SoC  in parallel, not much current flows and it can take a long time (several days) for things to equalise, mainly due to the very flat relationship between SoC and voltage. IMO it is better to top balance under charge conditions and either shunt current away from the high cells, or add current to the low cells by means of a (isolated) power supply.

When you say "top balance under charge conditions" do you mean take the cells up to full from say, half, rather than from ~80% or ~90% as I did today? I did balance under charge conditions but not for very long (2-3 hours max). I believe that the way that it would work is that the charger would have put the energy into the three flatter cells rather than the 100% cell.

 

I'll leave them overnight and then disconnect and see what the cells in isolation are. But I don't really want to leave the cells near-full for multiple days, so I might just accept a slightly less than perfect balance.

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1 hour ago, jetzi said:

When you say "top balance under charge conditions" do you mean take the cells up to full from say, half, rather than from ~80% or ~90% as I did today? I did balance under charge conditions but not for very long (2-3 hours max). I believe that the way that it would work is that the charger would have put the energy into the three flatter cells rather than the 100% cell.

 

I'll leave them overnight and then disconnect and see what the cells in isolation are. But I don't really want to leave the cells near-full for multiple days, so I might just accept a slightly less than perfect balance.

I mean taking the cells up the knee a bit (which amplifies any SoC differences) and lopping charge off the higher cells using a resistor or whatever. Yes I guess you more or less did this by connecting all in parallel and getting the voltage up to 3.65. As you have found, there is very little charge between 3.4 and 3.6v.

 

Anyway i suppose that is one way of doing it, but not the normal or best way. Not the best way because whilst all the cells were at 3.65v, you don’t know what the current through each cell was. If one cell is at a much higher current than another, even though they are at the same voltage, they aren’t at the same SoC.

 

OK I am being a bit pedantic because in your case the charger was only 5A and so there isn’t going to be a big difference in current or SoC, fractions of a %. I’m just making this point because it would work less well at a higher charge current.

 

So i would say your cells are as well top balanced as can reasonably be expected, no need to leave them connected in parallel.

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Well finally got my Li installed. Well not totally finished, but getting there.

D16BAF13-AA81-4B64-92A0-37654CB8AFEE.jpeg.753c2fe021a713dc9a94c7334d5e4b0b.jpeg
 

need some tywraps to tidy things up a bit. There’s the Tyco bistable relay on the positive output, the new BMV712 shunt top right which is located above (and thus close to)  the Mastershunt. I got 12 links with the 12 cells, so a few are made by me with the same 3 layers of 0.5mm copper strip. At least I had matching yellow heatshrink!

 

Yes the topography of the 4th bank of cells is sub-optimal, but I was constrained by the battery box size.

 

In the middle is the inline fuse that feeds leisure battery power/voltage sensing to my alternator controller. And the small green circuit board contains 4 SMD 5A fuses, these are the wires that go to the BMS and also which carry the power to operate the Tyco.

 

Ive put the Combi into “forced float” which means it is always in float mode, but can still supply its rated current and I can vary the voltage. No temperature compensation wanted so, since there is no Li mode on that Combi, i just removed the battery temperature sensor. The temperature sensor you can see is for the Mastershunt.

 

On the wall I now have the alternator controller, the Masterview, and the BMS - currently without a lid (need to cut the lid up for the connectors and to mount the display). Yes I know the display is sideways, that’s because the oled is plugged directly into the board. Eventually it will be mounted on the lid with flying leads. And all the Canbus (CAT5) cables are far too long, I need to cut them down and put on stubby connectors.

 

CA556924-07EC-4F31-939B-8F62F6C2DBC6.jpeg.52e25514aafd4fee144fb42c2b22bcd8.jpeg

 

 

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