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Cheap LiFePO4 BMS?


jetzi

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Reading a previous thread of ivan&alice I believe they went for a Hotpoint WMTF722h washing machine, if so the total watt rating is 2300W. The standard size element in Hotpoint machines is 1700W.

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26 minutes ago, JonesBoy said:

Reading a previous thread of ivan&alice I believe they went for a Hotpoint WMTF722h washing machine, if so the total watt rating is 2300W. The standard size element in Hotpoint machines is 1700W.

If that's the case they will be close to overloading the inverter as it's only rated at 2.4 KW 

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7 hours ago, JonesBoy said:

Reading a previous thread of ivan&alice I believe they went for a Hotpoint WMTF722h washing machine, if so the total watt rating is 2300W. The standard size element in Hotpoint machines is 1700W.

That's the one. But I have no idea where you got that info from because I honestly cannot find it anywhere?! The only rating I see in the manual, online or anywhere on the machine itself is "A++" and a average per annum consumption, infuriating measurements...

 

6 hours ago, peterboat said:

If that's the case they will be close to overloading the inverter as it's only rated at 2.4 KW 

At the risk of starting up the inductive vs resistive loads debate again, the inverter is 3kVA. Considering that the majority of the load (the washing machine heating element) is a resistive load the inverter should be able to power this, right?

 

(Although I never plan to use it this way - this point in this thread is about testing the lithium system rather than getting my washing machine to work. I got the washing machine for its true cold wash button and will fill with hot water. I have a mixer valve for underfloor heating allowing me to set the temperature from 35 to 65 degrees, and the washing machine is 2ft away from the calorifier to try to maintain the heat.)

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3 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

That's the one. But I have no idea where you got that info from because I honestly cannot find it anywhere?! The only rating I see in the manual, online or anywhere on the machine itself is "A++" and a average per annum consumption, infuriating measurements...

 

At the risk of starting up the inductive vs resistive loads debate again, the inverter is 3kVA. Considering that the majority of the load (the washing machine heating element) is a resistive load the inverter should be able to power this, right?

 

(Although I never plan to use it this way - this point in this thread is about testing the lithium system rather than getting my washing machine to work. I got the washing machine for its true cold wash button and will fill with hot water. I have a mixer valve for underfloor heating allowing me to set the temperature from 35 to 65 degrees, and the washing machine is 2ft away from the calorifier to try to maintain the heat.)

I have the same inverter Ivan and had to buy a new kettle, does that answer your question? Wish my Hotpoint had that button as most times I have plenty of hot water. Ringers crossed for a good result Ivan 

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6 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I have the same inverter Ivan and had to buy a new kettle, does that answer your question? Wish my Hotpoint had that button as most times I have plenty of hot water. Ringers crossed for a good result Ivan 

What rating is your kettle?

 

The inverter didn't trip but the BMS did - would the inverter drop the voltage down lower than the current would suggest if it was maxed out? I would have thought the inverter itself would simply trip?

 

In any event - I'll run the system with the inverter loaded up this weekend, take current measurements and see if I can reproduce / trip it again.

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20 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

What rating is your kettle?

 

The inverter didn't trip but the BMS did - would the inverter drop the voltage down lower than the current would suggest if it was maxed out? I would have thought the inverter itself would simply trip?

 

In any event - I'll run the system with the inverter loaded up this weekend, take current measurements and see if I can reproduce / trip it again.

It was 2.5 kw if my memory serves right my mate has it now, it used to bring the overloaded light on (flashing red) so I bought a 1800 watt kettle, I run happily the dishwasher or washing machine on heat, but if I put on the toaster or microwave with them it puts on the overload light,  they really are only rated at 2.4 Kw is sorry to say 

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My guess would be the current surge when the motor starts, combined with the heaters being on is causing the voltage to dip momentarily at the batteries. Does the BMS have any time delay or filtering functionality to prevent a momentary dip in voltage from tripping the battery disconnect?

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ivan&alice

Nowt to do with lithium but regarding washer info, if you put your model number in internet search and then pick Hotpoint site it will show you your machine and then go down to documents and the info is there.

Not the element rating, but I used to work for them.

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15 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

That's the one. But I have no idea where you got that info from because I honestly cannot find it anywhere?! The only rating I see in the manual, online or anywhere on the machine itself is "A++" and a average per annum consumption, infuriating measurements...

They really want to keep this a secret dont they :( On this page it says "Electrical Connection Rating (W) 2300" - whatever that means?

 

https://whirlpool-cdn.thron.com/static/1B54M8_PRF087755en_WECETE.pdf?xseo=&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D"Product-Data-Sheet.pdf"

 

 

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2 hours ago, JonesBoy said:

Nowt to do with lithium but regarding washer info, if you put your model number in internet search and then pick Hotpoint site it will show you your machine and then go down to documents and the info is there.

 

Not the element rating, but I used to work for them.

Thanks for the inside info! The energy label looks like this:

 image.png.bf598745cf47f3b9360e522c65d1a322.png
 

47 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

They really want to keep this a secret dont they :( On this page it says "Electrical Connection Rating (W) 2300" - whatever that means?

 

https://whirlpool-cdn.thron.com/static/1B54M8_PRF087755en_WECETE.pdf?xseo=&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D"Product-Data-Sheet.pdf"

But thanks Richard - I guess the "Electrical Connection Rating" is the maximum wattage that I'm looking for! Thank you both for that. 

 

---

 

I'm busy running a 60 degree 2.3h wash now. It's an hour in. It should be noted that my MPPT is currently in bulk mode and feeding about 35A to 40A of current into the system. When I last tested there was no assistance from the solar. 

 

It's hard to say exactly what the washing machine is doing, but I can guess - I can hear the motor, and when the heating element comes on my inverter starts to buzz quite loudly. After a bit the fan turns on. 


I am monitoring my BMV current (shunt is on the negative for the whole battery), as well as the current to my inverter only with my Uni-T clamp meter.

 

Here are some results

  1. the 3.15V per-cell alarm on my ISDT BG-8S sounded pretty soon into the cycle. The lowest I've seen any cell go was 3.03V on a cell. I have now set the BG-8S low voltage alarm to 3.00V so that I can see if the voltage dips lower than what I saw. 
  2. The 12.4V low voltage alarm on my BMV sounded, under heavy load once the battery SoC was depleted some. The lowest the battery went was 12.1V.
  3. My GWL cell monitoring board ("BMS") has not touched my emergency relays this time (yet) - (it has a 2.9V low voltage cut off - which is set too low for my comfort).
  4. My Volex B6 circuit breaker on my 240V distribution box has tripped twice (the washer is drawing more than 6A at 240V), so I should definitely rewire the washing machine socket to my 16A breaker - that was a bit of a silly oversight.
  5. During the start of the cycle, the inverter draws about 23A with the washer motor only. (Not sure what the machine is doing - I think it is weighing or distributing the load).
  6. The inverter draws about 190A with the heating element only.
  7. With both the heating element on and motor, when the motor first kicks in it surges to 240A or so but quickly settles to 210A once the motor is turning.

I perhaps should test on a 90 degree wash. But I believe my inverter can handle the load - 240A surge and 210A continuous is within bounds, as long as I don't use any other power. I'm a bit worried about the 190A relays that I'm using though. 

I'm not however sure if my batteries are up to it. They seem to be fine with having the solar assist (or alternator assist when I get there). But I am very uncomfortable with setting a low voltage cutoff on all my monitors that is low enough to cope with the voltage drop with my inverter running flat out. 

I suppose that one option is to add more cells? If I did that, they should be more robust against voltage drop? Otherwise, to upgrade to the "traction capable" cells. One thing I should do at least is to hook up my BMV to a relay that can cut the load based on a 20% SoC, but a) that relies on the BMV staying synced up, and b) that seems to make my two other cell-level monitoring systems redundant if I set them low enough to handle the voltage drops. 

Just to reiterate, this is not about getting the washing machine running, this is about my system performing under pressure. Even though I will run the machine on cold wash only, I want the system to be robust enough to handle (for example) someone forgetting to hit the cold wash button. I want enough margin so that as the cells degrade over time the system will stay powerful enough for my needs. I can't be having my cells dip into the sub 3V range when they are still >50% full and under load, because setting the voltage cutoff this low makes all of the layers of protection I've added pointless.

 

I guess the ultimate solution is to have a microprocessor controlled system like @MoominPapa's, that can be programmed to judge the situation based on more than just voltage. 

Edited by ivan&alice
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3 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

Here are some results

  1. the 3.15V per-cell alarm on my ISDT BG-8S sounded pretty soon into the cycle. The lowest I've seen any cell go was 3.03V on a cell. I have now set the BG-8S low voltage alarm to 3.00V so that I can see if the voltage dips lower than what I saw. 
  2. The 12.4V low voltage alarm on my BMV sounded, under heavy load once the battery SoC was depleted some. The lowest the battery went was 12.1V.
  3. My GWL cell monitoring board ("BMS") has not touched my emergency relays this time (yet) - (it has a 2.9V low voltage cut off - which is set too low for my comfort).
  4. My Volex B6 circuit breaker on my 240V distribution box has tripped twice (the washer is drawing more than 6A at 240V), so I should definitely rewire the washing machine socket to my 16A breaker - that was a bit of a silly oversight.
  5. During the start of the cycle, the inverter draws about 23A with the washer motor only. (Not sure what the machine is doing - I think it is weighing or distributing the load).
  6. The inverter draws about 190A with the heating element only.
  7. With both the heating element on and motor, when the motor first kicks in it surges to 240A or so but quickly settles to 210A once the motor is turning.

I perhaps should test on a 90 degree wash.

 

4. Oops!  This is the problem with not reading the power label on the back of the machine, usually near where the wire comes in ... 

 

5, 6, 7. That's about what we would expect to see on a 2300W machine.  If you use 10V as a rule of thumb to allow for inefficiencies in the inverter, you would expect to see 230A which is close enough to what you measured.

 

Testing on a 90 degree wash won't draw a higher current, it will just hold it at the 200+ Amps level for a lot longer.  It's a good test of your batteries as it will draw a lot of power from them for quite a while, and you will see what bad things happens to your cell voltages. ;)

 

 

 

 

 

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Might be worth taking a look at how the heating element is wired. If you're very lucky there might be 2 elements in parallel, which can easily be reconfigured. I'm doubtful though.

Other options; to fit a series diode on the heater to half the power, fit a series capacitor in the heater circuit, install a trasformer/autotransformer, lower the voltage at the inverter (some are adjustable e.g. 210-240v), disconnect the heater, fit a lower power heater, mod the hardware to shut off the heater when motor runs, mod the software, choose a different wash cycle, only run the wash when batteries are at a high SOC and warm, adjust the low battery voltage trips to be less sensitive to transients, install more batteries. 

 

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5 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

Thanks for the inside info! The energy label looks like this:

 image.png.bf598745cf47f3b9360e522c65d1a322.png
 

But thanks Richard - I guess the "Electrical Connection Rating" is the maximum wattage that I'm looking for! Thank you both for that. 

 

---

 

I'm busy running a 60 degree 2.3h wash now. It's an hour in. It should be noted that my MPPT is currently in bulk mode and feeding about 35A to 40A of current into the system. When I last tested there was no assistance from the solar. 

 

It's hard to say exactly what the washing machine is doing, but I can guess - I can hear the motor, and when the heating element comes on my inverter starts to buzz quite loudly. After a bit the fan turns on. 


I am monitoring my BMV current (shunt is on the negative for the whole battery), as well as the current to my inverter only with my Uni-T clamp meter.

 

Here are some results

  1. the 3.15V per-cell alarm on my ISDT BG-8S sounded pretty soon into the cycle. The lowest I've seen any cell go was 3.03V on a cell. I have now set the BG-8S low voltage alarm to 3.00V so that I can see if the voltage dips lower than what I saw. 
  2. The 12.4V low voltage alarm on my BMV sounded, under heavy load once the battery SoC was depleted some. The lowest the battery went was 12.1V.
  3. My GWL cell monitoring board ("BMS") has not touched my emergency relays this time (yet) - (it has a 2.9V low voltage cut off - which is set too low for my comfort).
  4. My Volex B6 circuit breaker on my 240V distribution box has tripped twice (the washer is drawing more than 6A at 240V), so I should definitely rewire the washing machine socket to my 16A breaker - that was a bit of a silly oversight.
  5. During the start of the cycle, the inverter draws about 23A with the washer motor only. (Not sure what the machine is doing - I think it is weighing or distributing the load).
  6. The inverter draws about 190A with the heating element only.
  7. With both the heating element on and motor, when the motor first kicks in it surges to 240A or so but quickly settles to 210A once the motor is turning.

I perhaps should test on a 90 degree wash. But I believe my inverter can handle the load - 240A surge and 210A continuous is within bounds, as long as I don't use any other power. I'm a bit worried about the 190A relays that I'm using though. 

I'm not however sure if my batteries are up to it. They seem to be fine with having the solar assist (or alternator assist when I get there). But I am very uncomfortable with setting a low voltage cutoff on all my monitors that is low enough to cope with the voltage drop with my inverter running flat out. 

I suppose that one option is to add more cells? If I did that, they should be more robust against voltage drop? Otherwise, to upgrade to the "traction capable" cells. One thing I should do at least is to hook up my BMV to a relay that can cut the load based on a 20% SoC, but a) that relies on the BMV staying synced up, and b) that seems to make my two other cell-level monitoring systems redundant if I set them low enough to handle the voltage drops. 

Just to reiterate, this is not about getting the washing machine running, this is about my system performing under pressure. Even though I will run the machine on cold wash only, I want the system to be robust enough to handle (for example) someone forgetting to hit the cold wash button. I want enough margin so that as the cells degrade over time the system will stay powerful enough for my needs. I can't be having my cells dip into the sub 3V range when they are still >50% full and under load, because setting the voltage cutoff this low makes all of the layers of protection I've added pointless.

 

I guess the ultimate solution is to have a microprocessor controlled system like @MoominPapa's, that can be programmed to judge the situation based on more than just voltage. 

Regarding the point about the 190A relays, look carefully at the data sheet. The 190A is at an ambient temperature of 85C. It is 260A at 23C and you can have 1000A for 1 second.

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I'm still struggling with the reason for the voltage drop. The calculator at 12 volt planet says you should have a drop of 0.12V at 240A.

 

Given your lithium spend most of their time at around 13.1-13.2V, the above suggests they should never get close to 12V with the washer drawing 240A unless I'm missing something? 

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34 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I'm still struggling with the reason for the voltage drop. The calculator at 12 volt planet says you should have a drop of 0.12V at 240A.

 

Given your lithium spend most of their time at around 13.1-13.2V, the above suggests they should never get close to 12V with the washer drawing 240A unless I'm missing something? 

Might be high cycles cells Richard,  yours and mine are low cycles which can be proved by simply plugging them in, individual cells don't have that luxury 

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Might be high cycles cells Richard,  yours and mine are low cycles which can be proved by simply plugging them in, individual cells don't have that luxury 

Ivan, I asked earlier if Jeremy had said if your cells had been tested for EV use or were they slightly weak in that area. What did he specify when he sold you the batteries?

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9 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

your cells had been tested for EV use or were they slightly weak in that area.

I got the weaker ones. Even so, a 0.3V drop per cell when under 200A load seems to be rather extreme. I figured more, cheaper cells would still be able to provide the current I require with more overall capacity, but I think that was the wrong decision because the voltage drop makes it very difficult to manage the battery. Jeremy has agreed for me to return and upgrade them to the traction capable ones - I just want to be sure that the problem is with the cells and not what I'm doing with them.

 

11 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

I'm still struggling with the reason for the voltage drop. The calculator at 12 volt planet says you should have a drop of 0.12V at 240A.

 

Given your lithium spend most of their time at around 13.1-13.2V, the above suggests they should never get close to 12V with the washer drawing 240A unless I'm missing something? 

Is that 0.12V per cell? I'm not sure I understand this calculation - isn't the volt drop dependent on the resistance of the load? (I'm not sure how to work out the resistance of the washing machine...)

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3 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

I got the weaker ones. Even so, a 0.3V drop per cell when under 200A load seems to be rather extreme. I figured more, cheaper cells would still be able to provide the current I require with more overall capacity, but I think that was the wrong decision because the voltage drop makes it very difficult to manage the battery. Jeremy has agreed for me to return and upgrade them to the traction capable ones - I just want to be sure that the problem is with the cells and not what I'm doing with them.

 

Is that 0.12V per cell? I'm not sure I understand this calculation - isn't the volt drop dependent on the resistance of the load? (I'm not sure how to work out the resistance of the washing machine...)

 

Volt drop is dependent upon the resistance in the circuit supplying in your case the washing machine (i.e. the resistance of the cables and connections to and from the inverter to the washing machine on the ac side and again (but seperately) from the battery to the inverter on the dc side and the current being drawn. The resisitance of the washing machine can be ignored as it is the voltage supplying the washing machine you are concerned with.

 

All types of battery also drop voltage  when a heavy load is placed on them. This is dependent on capacity, condition and internal resistance.

Edited by cuthound
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Changing the topic slightly, I thought I would update you on my re-install of my Lifepo4s on my new boat – rather than start a new thread.

For those of you keeping up, you will remember I had my 480Ahrs of Lifepo4s in parallel with the 660ahrs of LAs on my last boat. These were removed in March as we prepared to sell the boat leaving the LA's intact and fully operational. I now have a newly built boat and am installing the Li's as per the old boat with some subtle differences. The new boat came with 480Ars of AGMs, a 240A alternator (and a 50A one) and a Victron Quattro 5K combi thingy. One limitation is not to mess too much with the warranty on the new boat so taking the alternator apart is not an option for 12 months – but then it will be! (Nick, I am watching your progress closely!!).

So, the set up is that I am putting the 480Ahrs of Li's in parallel with the LA's but using a pair of Sterling 60A BtoB's. See summary diagram below. The BMS side (battery management system – not battery monitoring system) is the same as before. I am using a BEP701-md motorised switch to isolate the Li bank in the event of over or under voltage (or temp excursions) as measured by the dedicated BMV701 and BMM8v2 (Aussi cell monitoring unit) and with multiple layers of warning alarms (now the BMV701 has had its firmware updated so we can hear the alarm!). This system has worked very well for 12 months so has proven itself.

The difference to the old boat is how it is paralleled in to the LAs. Previously I had an alternator which could be controlled to back off when over 80% full and a full controllable solar set up. Now however I have an alternator that can deliver over 200A (and it does) plus a combi box that can also do 200A – and neither have controllers with a Lithium setting.

I am therefore going with a manual arrangement of a “1 2 Switch”. It can be in the 'Off” position in which case the Li bank is isolated. This will be the position most of the time when we are on shore power and the Combi and the LAs will be doing all the duty. When off shore power – and the engine not running- the switch will be in the '2' position with the Li's directly connected to the 12V 'bus bar' therefore providing 'all' the power. On starting the engine I will turn to the '1' position so isolating the bank from the 12V LA side but opening up the feed from the two BtoB's. I have chosen 2 *60A units which should give circa 100A together (in parallel). The BtoB's have a number of charge profiles including a 'custom' but I am starting on the AGM1 setting which gives 14.1V/13.75V/13.40V for bulk/conditioning/float. As the Li's have circa 4M of 50mm cable, there is a drop of around 0.2V down the line so although the BtoB will charge to 14.1V in bulk/abs, the Li's will only be at 13.9V (this is the way it worked on the old boat). The BtoB's should therefore reduce the voltage when I am at 80-90% full. If this doesnt work, then I can move to a custom setting. I was used to charging only at 30-40A and it may be that I need to go to higher voltages for bulk/abs if I am charging between 50A and 100A. It should be possible to therefore charge with the engine running without the emergency disconnect being activated.

As I am expecting to get 100A with the 2 BtoBs, they will likely be taking 120A from the alternator which should be OK for temperature. That is something to keep an eye on but the BtoB's have a setting to reduce to half power or turn one off (and one has an isolation switch) – so I have the option to charge at 25A, 50A, 75A or 100A with the alternator.

I have so far checked the system out with the combi box firing up one of the BtoBs (need to wire the other one in yet) and that was putting in 45A in.

So the only manual intervention is to set the '1 2 switch' to '1' setting before we start the engine and then turn it back to '2' when we stop it. If we forget and start the engine in the '2' position – ie direct to the LAs, then the alternator is likely to be putting 150A plus into the Li's and we will soon notice as I ALWAYS check the alternator is putting power in when we start the engine. I could automate this with a motorised 1 2 switch but happy to test it all out this way.

Anyone got any comments on the set up? Have I missed anything? I am not that well up on the BtoB's so not sure how they operate other than what is in the manual. There are no dire warnings in the manual on turning the power on/off to the unit or if the Li's isolate via the motorised switch so I assume they are robust to that. Any inputs?

 

 

 

lifepo4 layout S'A'Chroin.png

Edited by Dr Bob
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3 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

I got the weaker ones. Even so, a 0.3V drop per cell when under 200A load seems to be rather extreme. I figured more, cheaper cells would still be able to provide the current I require with more overall capacity, but I think that was the wrong decision because the voltage drop makes it very difficult to manage the battery. Jeremy has agreed for me to return and upgrade them to the traction capable ones - I just want to be sure that the problem is with the cells and not what I'm doing with them.

 

Is that 0.12V per cell? I'm not sure I understand this calculation - isn't the volt drop dependent on the resistance of the load? (I'm not sure how to work out the resistance of the washing machine...)

AFAIK, it’s the drop for the bank. There is a calculation you can do, but there are lots of voltage drop calculators online that do it for you. None refer to the size of the bank. I tend to use the one at 12 Volt Planet:

 

https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/cable-sizing-selection.html
 

Cuthound tends to suggest that there is an even higher voltage drop as the load is applied. I thought this was taken account of in the calculation, but am happy to bow to those who know.

 

There are obviously other points in a circuit that increase resistance, over and above the cable.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Volt drop is dependent upon the resistance in the circuit supplying in your case the washing machine (i.e. the resistance of the cables and connections to and from the inverter to the washing machine on the ac side and again (but seperately) from the battery to the inverter on the dc side. The resisitance of the washing machine can be ignored as it is the voltage supplying the washing machine you are concerned with.

 

All types of battery also drop voltage  when a heavy load is placed on them. This is dependent on capacity, condition and internal resistance.

However in this case the issue is about cell internal voltage drop, so external wiring voltage drop doesn’t have any effect other than to slightly increase current draw when the load is something like an inverter (constant input  power for a given output power).

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3 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

However in this case the issue is about cell internal voltage drop, so external wiring voltage drop doesn’t have any effect other than to slightly increase current draw when the load is something like an inverter (constant input  power for a given output power).

 

True, but the OP was asking about the resistance of the washing machine as well as cell internal volt drop.

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52 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

AFAIK, it’s the drop for the bank. There is a calculation you can do, but there are lots of voltage drop calculators online that do it for you. None refer to the size of the bank. I tend to use the one at 12 Volt Planet:

 

https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/cable-sizing-selection.html
 

Cuthound tends to suggest that there is an even higher voltage drop as the load is applied. I thought this was taken account of in the calculation, but am happy to bow to those who know.

 

There are obviously other points in a circuit that increase resistance, over and above the cable.

 

 

That calculator is relevant to voltage drop in wiring, not to drop within cells and the resultant calculation of at what voltage and current combination to activate low state of charge isolation.

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