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Bjarki06

Alde comfort 2920 Problem

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10 minutes ago, frangar said:

Mines 22mm  as well apart from the branch to the calorifier which is 15mm. The Alde is at the bow with the calorifier in the Mid engine room. 
 

One other thought is if you have added more antifreeze/water you did pre mix it? Otherwise it doesn’t always mix well and stays separate which disrupts the flow. 

 

 

Good thought, often catches people out.

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This is the Alde pump that works fine with our boiler for hot water and/or heating, what's confusing me is why the op needs to run the engine in conjunction with the boiler for hot water, surely it should be one or the other, not both.

20191021_094631.jpg

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1 hour ago, frangar said:

Mines 22mm  as well apart from the branch to the calorifier which is 15mm. The Alde is at the bow with the calorifier in the Mid engine room. 
 

One other thought is if you have added more antifreeze/water you did pre mix it? Otherwise it doesn’t always mix well and stays separate which disrupts the flow. 

I mixed it in a 1.5l water bottle and poured it in with a funnel at the top. The circulation pump which is usually in the expansion tank has been removed and replaced with this one so it was fairly easy to get it in

56 minutes ago, Rickent said:

This is the Alde pump that works fine with our boiler for hot water and/or heating, what's confusing me is why the op needs to run the engine in conjunction with the boiler for hot water, surely it should be one or the other, not both.

20191021_094631.jpg

That pump has been removed on ours and replaced with the new circulation pump (a Johnson pump).

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3 minutes ago, Bjarki06 said:

I mixed it in a 1.5l water bottle and poured it in with a funnel at the top. The circulation pump which is usually in the expansion tank has been removed and replaced with this one so it was fairly easy to get it in

That's good, it rules stratified liquid out.

 

The problem is that when you get one very non-standard feature like that pump one has to wonder what else is non-standard. It was suggested that you said that you had to run the engine and boiler to (not going back to check) get hot water and if so that is very odd. It is more likely to be a misunderstanding of something on your part rather than the truth. It is even possible that the Alde is not connected to the calorifier so the only way of getting hot water is from the engine with the Alde only heating the rads. Not being on the boat we simply can not know. Is there any chance that you can trace the pipes and  draw a diagram of what is connected to what and showing all the gizmos you find.

 

If it is piped conventionally with two calorifier coils I still suspect air in the calorifier coil.

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12 hours ago, David Mack said:

I assume the Alde heats a calorifier (hot water tank), and that in turn feeds the hot taps. There should be a pipe running from the top of the boiler to the upper of two connections on the side (or end if horizontal) of the calorifier, and a return pipe from the lower connection to the bottom of the boiler. One of these pipes will be via the pump. The upper connection should get hot within a few minutes of firing up the boiler. Is it?

I just checked that pipe again further up near the boiler and it is warm. Not super hot but definitely warm and it’s quite thick pipe. I’ll include a few pics to show the full setup with the isolator tap for the radiators in the middle.

 

Thanks everyone for your patience and help. I think the next step is to look for the calorifier. What I don’t understand is that we’ve had hot water before but now it’s just lukewarm. I work in IT and my general diagnostic stream of thought would suggest to me that if it works AT ALL that rules a few things out. If the water wasn’t getting hotter at all It would be one thing but it’s just very very slowly warming (although the radiators heat up great).

7D73F300-4532-4927-BBEF-0659FCC19392.jpeg

CB562E94-7752-44EC-B66E-659457FF824E.jpeg

77BF23A4-308D-4D34-AC4D-C69A0CCF88E4.jpeg

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Hang on, what is that Jabsco water puppy pump doing (the one with the brass pump body)? Those are nowadays normally only used as shower pumps and then only on older boats. I doubt its a domestic water pump but if it is then it is again very non-standard.

 

I am sorry but you seem to have repeated what you posted much earlier in the topic. Sundry photos with no indication of where the pipework goes are pretty much useless and that is why I asked for a diagram. To be honest the top photo shows no T on the pump outlet pipe so the system may not even be p[lumber to heat the calorifier.

 

We can only apply our knowledge of how things are normally done and how they may be done to give help but if your boat is abnormal (as it is with the remote pump) then the pipes need tracing and the system drawn out. If you find something you do not know what it is just post a photo and ask. I doubt much more help can be given unless you draw out the system or you give a rough location so a knowledgeable local member might offer to come and look at it for you.

 

 

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I still can't work out why the engine and the Alde need to be running to heat the water, or am I  misreading an earlier post.

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Just now, Rickent said:

I still can't work out why the engine and the Alde need to be running to heat the water, or am I  misreading an earlier post.

I don't think you are and I agree unless the Alde is not connected to the calorifier and the OP has misunderstood. However until this point is clarified and/or a diagram of the system is supplied we can never knowe.

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1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

I don't think you are and I agree unless the Alde is not connected to the calorifier and the OP has misunderstood. However until this point is clarified and/or a diagram of the system is supplied we can never knowe.

As you have stated earlier it looks a very strange non standard set up.

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Looking at the wiring I would suggest this is quite an elderly boat with a lot of DIY so anything is possible and non standard

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3 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Looking at the wiring I would suggest this is quite an elderly boat with a lot of DIY so anything is possible and non standard

Yup. Flat T&E all over the place... chock blocks... who knows what’s what. 

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17 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

That's good, it rules stratified liquid out.

 

The problem is that when you get one very non-standard feature like that pump one has to wonder what else is non-standard. It was suggested that you said that you had to run the engine and boiler to (not going back to check) get hot water and if so that is very odd. It is more likely to be a misunderstanding of something on your part rather than the truth. It is even possible that the Alde is not connected to the calorifier so the only way of getting hot water is from the engine with the Alde only heating the rads. Not being on the boat we simply can not know. Is there any chance that you can trace the pipes and  draw a diagram of what is connected to what and showing all the gizmos you find.

 

If it is piped conventionally with two calorifier coils I still suspect air in the calorifier coil.

Here are two drawings of the setup. Please excuse my technical drawing skills! I’ve colour coded each pipe which seems to run separately in the second picture. The first is a basic overview of the boiler in the bow and how it runs to two rads on one side of the boat (one in the room pictured) and one rad in the bathroom on the other side.

 

The second picture is a more detailed diagram of the wardrobe plumbing itself. Please ignore the mess at the bottom left I accidentally drew in an extra pipe and crossed it out. The pipes which are there are all shaded.spacer.png

 

https://imgur.com/a/d4jKE8U

 

edit: to clarify the top red shaded pipe and the middle green shaded pipe go into the boiler. The others disappear out of the wardrobe towards the stern

Edited by Bjarki06

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14 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Hang on, what is that Jabsco water puppy pump doing (the one with the brass pump body)? Those are nowadays normally only used as shower pumps and then only on older boats. I doubt its a domestic water pump but if it is then it is again very non-standard.

 

I am sorry but you seem to have repeated what you posted much earlier in the topic. Sundry photos with no indication of where the pipework goes are pretty much useless and that is why I asked for a diagram. To be honest the top photo shows no T on the pump outlet pipe so the system may not even be p[lumber to heat the calorifier.

 

We can only apply our knowledge of how things are normally done and how they may be done to give help but if your boat is abnormal (as it is with the remote pump) then the pipes need tracing and the system drawn out. If you find something you do not know what it is just post a photo and ask. I doubt much more help can be given unless you draw out the system or you give a rough location so a knowledgeable local member might offer to come and look at it for you.

 

 

Hi, sorry I was in the middle of drawing a diagram this morning when I had a call from a customer and had to rush out. I’ve drawn a rough diagram in the above post now. It’s not anyone here’s responsibility to fix obviously and I can get by with lukewarm water so it’s not an emergency, if anything I’m just trying to learn a bit about how this system works in case I can fix it myself before I call out a plumber and I appreciate the help.

 

i think you’re right actually the waterpuppy is to drain the shower and the domestic pump is somewhere buried in the wall behind a chest of drawers. This whole boat has a very non standard setup with the inverter running off the batteries without any input from the mains power so when it’s plugged in all the mains power does is keep the batteries charged. Very strange setup but we were desperate to get out of a dangerous living situation when we bought it and just wanted a boat we could sail away and live in that wasn’t going to need blacking overplating and engine work any time soon

Edited by Bjarki06

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3 hours ago, Bjarki06 said:

Hi, sorry I was in the middle of drawing a diagram this morning when I had a call from a customer and had to rush out. I’ve drawn a rough diagram in the above post now. It’s not anyone here’s responsibility to fix obviously and I can get by with lukewarm water so it’s not an emergency, if anything I’m just trying to learn a bit about how this system works in case I can fix it myself before I call out a plumber and I appreciate the help.

 

i think you’re right actually the waterpuppy is to drain the shower and the domestic pump is somewhere buried in the wall behind a chest of drawers. This whole boat has a very non standard setup with the inverter running off the batteries without any input from the mains power so when it’s plugged in all the mains power does is keep the batteries charged. Very strange setup but we were desperate to get out of a dangerous living situation when we bought it and just wanted a boat we could sail away and live in that wasn’t going to need blacking overplating and engine work any time soon

The diagrams.  Thank you for that but unfortunately they  are not complete. I can see that you haver a heating pipe going down each side of the boat. This is very non-standard for that type of heater. I can also see a red thing that looks as if it may be a radiator and if so the digram suggests the radiators are piped as a single pipe system with the calorifier at the far end of the circuit - if indeed it is connected to the calorifier. A characteristic of a single pipe system is that the further away you get from the boiler the cooler the radiator will be because the previous ones have taken heat away. That in itself might explain why you have only warm water if you only run for an hour or so but you said that you turned all the radiators off and that should have solved the heat loss thing as long as water could still flow around the system and you ran if for a couple of hours.

 

Unfortunately the diagrams are not complete. They do not show how the radiators are connected to the pipe work, any radiator valves and there is no sign of a calorifier or how it is connected so we are still guessing. What may seem an inconsequential detail to you might be the thing that unlocks the problem. Lets have a diagram of the calorifier (hot water cylinder) showing all the pipes that are connected to it and where they go to/come from.

 

This problem is likely to turn out to have  a simple fix once we can see how the total system fits together.

 

 

Only very expensive inverters can synchronise themselves to the shore supply and augment it. Likewise only expensive units are inverter chargers. Your inverter setup seems perfectly normal to me and some would say has the advantage that if one part of the unit fails you (charger or inverter) you can still use the other.

 

If you take the bottom draw out of the chest of draws you will hopefully see the domestic pump in the cavity below it.

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I've just reviewed this thread and the OP seems completely at sea some about what is going on here (as am I), yet seems keen to learn.

 

It might be helpful to consider the basics. The principle of wet central heating system is actually very simple. For it to work,  there needs to be four things present. If all four are are present, it WILL work. When it doesn't work, one of the four things WILL turn out to be missing. We need to find out which of the four things is missing and fix it Here are the four things:

 

1) A circuit

2) A motive force

3) Sufficient fluid 

4) A heat source

 

In this thread, the system worked until the pipe came out of the water pump, which stopped the system working by removing 1) and 2) from the list. The OP appears to have fixed the pipe thus restoring the circuit, so 1) can be ruled out as the fault.

 

Lets consider 2) The motive force or in this case the pump. We know it is there but is it running? Can the OP confirm please? When running it will be humming quietly and can be felt vibrating to the touch. If it is still and silent, the water pouring out possibly blew the pump fuse. (If there is one). 

 

3) Fluid. Filling the system and purging the pump of air can be quite difficult and intuitive. The pump tone lowers noticeably as it clears of air, takes up the load and starts pumping. Assuming the pump is running, I do suspect an air-locked pump. How does air escape from the pump? If there is no way for it to escape, this is likely to be the cause. A Johnson pump will only pump water, not air. 

 

4) The heat source. No-one has asked, but does the boiler actually light and warm up?  

 

One point puzzles me enormously. The OP says the engine and the heating system need to be both run together to get hot, water and hot radiators. This is bizarre. My gut feeling is running both together was not actually necessary. If it was, then possibly the gas boiler does not work and the engine was providing all the heat. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Its hard to tell from the photo but it looks as if the pump outlet might be running down hill away from the pump and if so Mike's thoughts on an air locked pump may well be correct. That pipe should be running level or up hill slightly to a point at which air can be bled out.

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3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I've just reviewed this thread and the OP seems completely at sea some about what is going on here (as am I), yet seems keen to learn.

 

It might be helpful to consider the basics. The principle of wet central heating system is actually very simple. For it to work,  there needs to be four things present. If all four are are present, it WILL work. When it doesn't work, one of the four things WILL turn out to be missing. We need to find out which of the four things is missing and fix it Here are the four things:

 

1) A circuit

2) A motive force

3) Sufficient fluid 

4) A heat source

 

In this thread, the system worked until the pipe came out of the water pump, which stopped the system working by removing 1) and 2) from the list. The OP appears to have fixed the pipe thus restoring the circuit, so 1) can be ruled out as the fault.

 

Lets consider 2) The motive force or in this case the pump. We know it is there but is it running? Can the OP confirm please? When running it will be humming quietly and can be felt vibrating to the touch. If it is still and silent, the water pouring out possibly blew the pump fuse. (If there is one). 

 

3) Fluid. Filling the system and purging the pump of air can be quite difficult and intuitive. The pump tone lowers noticeably as it clears of air, takes up the load and starts pumping. Assuming the pump is running, I do suspect an air-locked pump. How does air escape from the pump? If there is no way for it to escape, this is likely to be the cause. A Johnson pump will only pump water, not air. 

 

4) The heat source. No-one has asked, but does the boiler actually light and warm up?  

 

One point puzzles me enormously. The OP says the engine and the heating system need to be both run together to get hot, water and hot radiators. This is bizarre. My gut feeling is running both together was not actually necessary. If it was, then possibly the gas boiler does not work and the engine was providing all the heat. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Could the batteries be so borked it needs the engine to provide the power to run the electrical needs?

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3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Its hard to tell from the photo but it looks as if the pump outlet might be running down hill away from the pump and if so Mike's thoughts on an air locked pump may well be correct. That pipe should be running level or up hill slightly to a point at which air can be bled out.

Those sorts of pumps can be buggers to get the air out if the pipe rings aren't quite right, I have an expensive Johnson one and had the same problem

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If its only the engine heating the calorifier and the waters only luke warm, is the engine getting up to normal temp, is the there a temp gauge for the engine, is there a thermostat in the engine?

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9 hours ago, Bjarki06 said:

Hi, sorry I was in the middle of drawing a diagram this morning when I had a call from a customer and had to rush out. I’ve drawn a rough diagram in the above post now. It’s not anyone here’s responsibility to fix obviously and I can get by with lukewarm water so it’s not an emergency, if anything I’m just trying to learn a bit about how this system works in case I can fix it myself before I call out a plumber and I appreciate the help.

 

i think you’re right actually the waterpuppy is to drain the shower and the domestic pump is somewhere buried in the wall behind a chest of drawers. This whole boat has a very non standard setup with the inverter running off the batteries without any input from the mains power so when it’s plugged in all the mains power does is keep the batteries charged. Very strange setup but we were desperate to get out of a dangerous living situation when we bought it and just wanted a boat we could sail away and live in that wasn’t going to need blacking overplating and engine work any time soon

PM sent

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My calorifier has the Alde connected to the upper coil and the pipes run just above floor level so its terrible for getting an airlock. The little Alde pump does not have enough push to remove the air, hopefully the OPs pump is a bit stronger. I had to install two separate air bleeds to get mine running.

 

I don't actually use it as I am too mean to pay for the gas, but like to know its working "just in case".

 

the "was working now not working" does sound like an airlock.

 

..........Dave

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If then pump is air locked I think loosening the four screws that hold the pump chamber to the pump body (the silver ones with heads downwards) a couple of turns may eb enough to let any air i there out without risking flooding the boat again. If mine I would give it a try.

 

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2 hours ago, bizzard said:

If its only the engine heating the calorifier and the waters only luke warm, is the engine getting up to normal temp, is the there a temp gauge for the engine, is there a thermostat in the engine?

I’m not sure if it’s the engine or the boiler because we’ve tried both and each one individually and seem to get different results but last night I was running the boiler for an hour and the water didn’t feel warm at all from the hot taps

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6 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I've just reviewed this thread and the OP seems completely at sea some about what is going on here (as am I), yet seems keen to learn.

 

It might be helpful to consider the basics. The principle of wet central heating system is actually very simple. For it to work,  there needs to be four things present. If all four are are present, it WILL work. When it doesn't work, one of the four things WILL turn out to be missing. We need to find out which of the four things is missing and fix it Here are the four things:

 

1) A circuit

2) A motive force

3) Sufficient fluid 

4) A heat source

 

In this thread, the system worked until the pipe came out of the water pump, which stopped the system working by removing 1) and 2) from the list. The OP appears to have fixed the pipe thus restoring the circuit, so 1) can be ruled out as the fault.

 

Lets consider 2) The motive force or in this case the pump. We know it is there but is it running? Can the OP confirm please? When running it will be humming quietly and can be felt vibrating to the touch. If it is still and silent, the water pouring out possibly blew the pump fuse. (If there is one). 

 

3) Fluid. Filling the system and purging the pump of air can be quite difficult and intuitive. The pump tone lowers noticeably as it clears of air, takes up the load and starts pumping. Assuming the pump is running, I do suspect an air-locked pump. How does air escape from the pump? If there is no way for it to escape, this is likely to be the cause. A Johnson pump will only pump water, not air. 

 

4) The heat source. No-one has asked, but does the boiler actually light and warm up?  

 

One point puzzles me enormously. The OP says the engine and the heating system need to be both run together to get hot, water and hot radiators. This is bizarre. My gut feeling is running both together was not actually necessary. If it was, then possibly the gas boiler does not work and the engine was providing all the heat. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. The pump is definitely running and seems to be able to pump lukewarm water through to the showers.

2. I filled the boiler and the level is between min and max on the expansion tank.

3. The boiler heats up well although a failure with the thermostat caused it to boil over previously (on the same day the circulation pump came free of the pipe. Most likely one caused the other) that has now been fixed. It pushes hot water through to the radiators which get nice and hot still.

4. It might be that we only need one or the other and my approach to isolating the problem has been messed up by frustration and thinking “fine I’ll just run both because I don’t want to be running one for two hours and still have no hot water. Having said that after trips running the engine for a few hours under load with no boiler we’ve had more warm water, almost hot enough but lately running it for 2 hours on tickover produces just lukewarm water and we’re in a marina where we can’t run our engine under load for very long. Surely if we have a boiler we should be able to get hot water from that?

5. Apologies for any confusion, I’ve had a lot of other problems I’m trying to sort out recently and have been going back and forth with it over the last few weeks so might not have expressed things as clearly as I could. I appreciate everyone’s patience and help here. Will work on getting a more full diagram but I don’t know where the calorifier is yet.

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6 minutes ago, Bjarki06 said:

I’m not sure if it’s the engine or the boiler because we’ve tried both and each one individually and seem to get different results but last night I was running the boiler for an hour and the water didn’t feel warm at all from the hot taps

I wonder if the engine cooling system and central heating system are linked using the same coolant. If so the engine may be well down on coolant and simply topping it up may still lave an airlock in the skin tank. Did you have  the engine up after the pipe came out and if so did you bleed the skin tank. There could also be an airlock in the engine calorifier circuit as well as the central heating. if they are linked. If the engine overheated the thermostat may have clipped itself open (being an older boat).

 

We still need to see the plumbing for the calorifier and a full diagram.

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