The Tragic Loss Of Entering A Flooding Vessel.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I reckon another 10 years all hull outlets will be 2 foot above the roof.

Raise snorkel ………………….

 

[Dav and Pen]

12 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Maybe they had been on holiday in France

Or the grand canal Ireland.we had a big problem going uphill in a double lock when the keeper didn’t shut the middle gates and when he lifted the top gate paddles a great arc of water started to fill the front deck, luckily I had closed the front doors so no water got in the cabin. Lots of shouting and blowing the horn before he realised what was going on.

[Scholar Gypsy]

17 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Maybe they had been on holiday in France

58 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Why on earth would someone try to use a staircase as 'one lock'. If the design enabled them to be used as one lock.....they'd be one lock wouldn't they?

There are some videos of the flight at Beziers, which I think ditchcrawler may be referring to!  

 

If you skip through this you get the general idea ...

 

 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

You can come unstuck with that as well as lots dont have weak link on fenders, I dont use chains just cord  https://www.facebook.com/groups/NarrowboatOwnersGroup/permalink/2457893817822225/

 

Surely the last thing you need on a front fender is a permalink!

[rusty69]

Ok. Hands up all those that haven't got a rear fender that is longer than the rudder protrusion from the stern of the boat.

 

✋

Edited October 11, 2019 by rusty69

[Captain Pegg]

2 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Why on earth would someone try to use a staircase as 'one lock'. If the design enabled them to be used as one lock.....they'd be one lock wouldn't they?

Quite. Although I suspect someone might try and claim that you can technically operate it with less winding of paddles but I’d have thought it would take longer overall and it’s certainly risky. The exception is perhaps the lower staircase at Stourport narrow locks which does not have an invert between the chambers. The lower level is of course whatever the Severn happens to be doing at that point in time and is I guess the reason the lock is different. There are days when the fall of the lower chamber is negative. I did once suggest on here that both Stourport staircases were the same - which is what I believe I was told - but I’ve since checked and the upper staircase is of conventional design.

 

As for the Droitwich incident I can’t see that it would have been a factor even if true.

 

JP

Edited October 11, 2019 by Captain Pegg

[Sea Dog]

23 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Ok. Hands up all those that haven't got a rear fender that is longer than the rudder protrusion from the stern of the boat.

 

✋

Even then, this accident might have been avoided had the steerer put the tiller hard over such that the rudder blade is athwartships and hence impossible to trap in the gates (having previously ensured that the tiller arm was of insufficient length to contact the lock wall, of course). 

[Pie Eater]

26 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Ok. Hands up all those that haven't got a rear fender that is longer than the rudder protrusion from the stern of the boat.

 

✋

Our fender is too short but we always have the tiller roped to one side when in locks.

[rusty69]

Just now, Sea Dog said:

Even then, this accident might have been avoided had the steerer put the tiller hard over such that the rudder blade is athwartships and hence impossible to trap in the gates (having previously ensured that the tiller arm was of insufficient length to contact the lock wall, of course). 

True. That is what I have previously done, but it is easy to forget. If nothing else,this sad story has prompted me to get a longer rear fender(s).So much can happen in a lock, it is one less thing to worry about.

Either that, or I will get 6 inches cut off the rudder.

4 minutes ago, Pie Eater said:

32 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

 

Our fender is too short but we always have the tiller roped to one side when in locks.

I guess doing this is a solution, but a bit of a pain each time.For our boat it would involve a rope through the hole in the rudder.

[Sea Dog]

2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

True. That is what I have previously done, but it is easy to forget. If nothing else,this sad story has prompted me to get a longer rear fender(s).So much can happen in a lock, it is one less thing to worry about.

Either that, or I will get 6 inches cut off the rudder.

It's easy to forget to put your trousers on, but some things are worth making a routine...

 

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

It's easy to forget to put your trousers on, but some things are worth making a routine...

 

So,is it a hands up for you then Sea Dog?(don't do this before you have done your top button up,trousers, not fenders)

Edited October 11, 2019 by rusty69

[Iain_S]

2 hours ago, rusty69 said:

They were apparently too close to the water line with respect to the door sill for insurance purposes.

So how do you get water off the front deck?

 

Similar situation in reverse with a trip boat I skipper. Original design had front deck draining into a shower pump tank, one of these white plastic things that always leak. When it did, an "engineer" drilled deck drains. At the next MCA inspection, the inspector insisted that these were blocked when passengers were on board, so I made up wooden bungs.

 

Following a change of MCA inspector, the loaded water line was calculated, and marked on the hull with a line of weld. The boat is now officially at its maximum load without passengers and crew, and is overloaded on every trip ...

 

 

[rusty69]

Just now, Iain_S said:

So how do you get water off the front deck?

The obvious and ludicrous solution of a cratch cover preventing water ingress (until it doesn't)

3 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Following a change of MCA inspector, the loaded water line was calculated, and marked on the hull with a line of weld. The boat is now officially at its maximum load without passengers and crew, and is overloaded on every trip ...

Would one way Scuppers work?

[Wanderer Vagabond]

55 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Ok. Hands up all those that haven't got a rear fender that is longer than the rudder protrusion from the stern of the boat.

 

✋

Yup, I'll put my hand up to that one. The problem I have is that should the stern fender bump anything it drops so that I can't steer anyway until I've lifted it up again so a longer rear fender would solve nothing at all, the secret it not to hit anything with your stern fender if possible . I tend to regard it as the last straw if everything else has failed, but otherwise try not to hit anything with it (including lock gates). Yes it would probably be ideal to have a stern fender that is longer than my rudder, it's not going to happen though.

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Yup, I'll put my hand up to that one. The problem I have is that should the stern fender bump anything it drops so that I can't steer anyway until I've lifted it up again so a longer rear fender would solve nothing at all, the secret it not to hit anything with your stern fender if possible . I tend to regard it as the last straw if everything else has failed, but otherwise try not to hit anything with it (including lock gates). Yes it would probably be ideal to have a stern fender that is longer than my rudder, it's not going to happen though.

Ok. Next question.Starter for 10. Why does the rudder protrude from the boat profile at all? why not contain it beneath the boat?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

A sad tale. After this happened a few years ago I put an extra rear fender button on my boat to reduce the risk of this happening. The projection of the rudder wasn't as bad, only an inch or so, but not worth the risk. Borrowed a "how to make fenders" book and fid from a neighbour and made my own.

 

Jen

[Iain_S]

4 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

 

Would one way Scuppers work?

I think so, yes. Might be prone to blockage, though. If it was up to me, I'd re-do the original system, using a decent tank and a  Whale Gulper pump, and also incorporating an extra float switch for a bilge alarm, which the MCA are now insisting on.

 

The load line problem arises from it being calculated in dry dock, using the sill of the front doors as the downflooding height. Without the drain holes, the downflooding height is the back deck.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

2 hours ago, The Dreamer said:

 

With hindsight, the question I should have asked at the time!  Am far more cautious about accepting help from anyone now, bystander, or volunteer...

I have to say that all of the help I accept is under instruction from me. I'll accept anyone's help, provided they are doing what I tell them, if not they can go and do something else and I am more than capable of working the lock/bridge/whatever myself.

[Sea Dog]

23 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

So,is it a hands up for you then Sea Dog?(don't do this before you have done your top button up,trousers, not fenders)

No, my fender does project beyond the rudder, but I see that as a backstop for any steerer oversight which would allow the centred rudder to contact anything. Belt and braces are justified by the potential consequences.

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Borrowed a "how to make fenders" book and fid from a neighbour and made my own.

So, how difficult is it? Something a semi literate beagle-cat hybrid could undertake over the gloomy months?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

7 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Ok. Next question.Starter for 10. Why does the rudder protrude from the boat profile at all? why not contain it beneath the boat?

Don't forget that the design of the rear counter on modern narrowboats is based on working boats that were towing a butty. When towed close, the butty relied on the motor boats rear fender to keep it off. The rudder could project underneath. This allowed an extra few inches of space for cargo in the hold, if the rudder could be turned 90 degrees in a lock.

4 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

So, how difficult is it? Something a semi literate beagle-cat hybrid could undertake over the gloomy months?

Not hard. The one I made isn't particularly neat, but it is still working fine several years later. Used a go-kart tyre, stuffed with rope as a base and 50m of 8mm polypropylene rope to make it. Something to do on those wet winter days.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Wanderer Vagabond]

6 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Ok. Next question.Starter for 10. Why does the rudder protrude from the boat profile at all? why not contain it beneath the boat?

Probably 'cos you'd need to put the engine even further forward in the boat. Unlike 'proper' ocean going sailing boats, all the rudder on the narrow boat does it divert the thrust from the prop so you could have a rudder within the boat profile so long as the engine was somewhere amidships.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Wanderer Vagabond

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

I think so, yes. Might be prone to blockage, though. If it was up to me, I'd re-do the original system, using a decent tank and a  Whale Gulper pump, and also incorporating an extra float switch for a bilge alarm, which the MCA are now insisting on.

 

The load line problem arises from it being calculated in dry dock, using the sill of the front doors as the downflooding height. Without the drain holes, the downflooding height is the back deck.

I see what you are saying,but all that seems way over complicated compared to simple hole in the side of the boat,which clearly may not be appropriate for a trip boat, but suited our boat fine until the insurers said it didn't.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

4 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

So, how difficult is it? Something a semi literate beagle-cat hybrid could undertake over the gloomy months?

It is actually a piece of cake making your own fenders, get yourself a load of scrap rope and a fid and rock on, passes away many a quiet winter evening. I'm sure there must be a You Tube video on it. I was given one of these 'do it yourself' fender kits (complete with fid) and knocked a couple up inside a week, it is quite therapeutic.

[rusty69]

Just now, Wanderer Vagabond said:

It is actually a piece of cake making your own fenders, get yourself a load of scrap rope and a fid and rock on, passes away many a quiet winter evening. I'm sure there must be a You Tube video on it. I was given one of these 'do it yourself' fender kits (complete with fid) and knocked a couple up inside a week, it is quite therapeutic.

Sounds like a plan. I know how to do eye splices and backsplices, so am already au fait with the possibility of the frustrating learning curve.