Is this the thin end of the wedge ?

[Quaffer]

32 minutes ago, MartynG said:

It seems whatever C&RT do it receives objections from this forum. 

 

The removal of bins to reduce abuse  fly tipping is clearly an experiment. 

People who think it will not succeed may themselves be potential fly tippers ?

 

The presence if a small bin may act as a sign to say dump your rubbish here. The empty space does not attract tipping of rubbish any more than any other spot.

 

The removal of the open topped litter bins along The Regents Canal and Hertford Union has been a reasonable success and happened almost 2 years ago.Previously it only took about three boater black sacks to fill these bins,and once they started to overflow it ,just attracted more fly tipping safe in the knowledge that ultimately the whole mess would get removed. The litter bins were being abused but their removal seems to have altered some boaters behaviour as there is now  no fly tipping these day where the bins once stood.

 

Fountains do a regular towpath litter pick in the area where the bins were removed ,and this clears away cans,bottles and dog shit in bags.

 

Letter box style litter bins still remain at Mare Street and Broadway Market and work fine,boaters can't stuff their black bin liners in the narrow gaps.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by Quaffer

[ditchcrawler]

44 minutes ago, MartynG said:

It seems whatever C&RT do it receives objections from this forum. 

 

The removal of bins to reduce abuse  fly tipping is clearly an experiment. 

People who think it will not succeed may themselves be potential fly tippers ?

 

The presence if a small bin may act as a sign to say dump your rubbish here. The empty space does not attract tipping of rubbish any more than any other spot.

 

As I witnessed in Middlewich above Kings Lock, boater came out of his boat,crossed the fence and put his boat crap in a litter bin

14 minutes ago, Quaffer said:

The removal of the open topped litter bins along The Regents Canal and Hertford Union has been a reasonable success and happened almost 2 years ago.Previously it only took about three boater black sacks to fill these bins,and once they started to overflow it ,just attracted more fly tipping safe in the knowledge that ultimately the whole mess would get removed. The litter bins were being abused but their removal seems to have altered some boaters behaviour as there is now  no fly tipping these day where the bins once stood.

 

Fountains do a regular towpath litter pick in the area where the bins were removed ,and this clears away cans,bottles and dog shit in bags.

 

Letter box style litter bins still remain at Mare Street and Broadway Market and work fine,boaters can't stuff their black bin liners in the narrow gaps.

 

 

Just look at the rubbish some people leave beside the dog poo bins

[Quaffer]

13 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

As I witnessed in Middlewich above Kings Lock, boater came out of his boat,crossed the fence and put his boat crap in a litter bin

Just look at the rubbish some people leave beside the dog poo bins

Maybe those bins should also be removed ?

[Momac]

8 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As I suggested in post #60

Yes you did.

But it was with repeating.

3 minutes ago, Quaffer said:

Maybe those bins should also be removed ?

That's exactly the sort of bin they are planning to remove...... I think.

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

18 minutes ago, Quaffer said:

Maybe those bins should also be removed ?

Maybe they should but they are not CRT bins, they are on the public roadside pavement over the fence from the tow path

[Momac]

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Maybe they should but they are not CRT bins, they are on the public roadside pavement over the fence from the tow path

Do you think the boater witnessed abusing that bin would have dumped his bag of rubbish if there had been no bin ?

[ditchcrawler]

Just now, MartynG said:

Do you think the boater witnessed abusing that bin would have dumped his bag of rubbish if there had been no bin ?

No, I think that is probably why he moored in that spot. But that is only my thoughts on the matter, I have no way of knowing

[tree monkey]

20 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Do you think the boater witnessed abusing that bin would have dumped his bag of rubbish if there had been no bin ?

Who knows but I did watch a boater carefully unload their bottles onto the floor next to almost full bins, despite me suggesting that wasn't a good idea and it could cause issues when the contractors came to empty the bins.

I eventually put the bottles in the bin myself

[Boater Sam]

There was a skip in the King's Lock Chandlery but it was so abused by the immediate traders that it was removed.

There was a skip in Middlewich Narrowboats yard, since the business went that has gone too.

There is nowhere on the T&M from Red Bull to Preston Brook that I know of for rubbish disposal.

There is a combination lock on the compound gate at Cropredy Wharf for the skipper to access the bins and recycling. Since a local resident boater  "obtained " the combination it is frequently left open for the local builders and householders to fill to overflowing.

Its abuse that will lead to the total removal of facilities

Its the  responsibility  of us all to report abuse and demand that CRT take action under the existing waste carrying and disposal regulations which lead to the increase in fly tipping in the first place.

[BWM]

On 06/10/2019 at 09:43, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I too was thinking the cost to CRT for disposal of rubbish is probably a lot bigger than most people think.

 

What would be a typical weight of contents in one of those commercial wheeled bins that CRT give us Alan? I'd guess they hold about 50 bin bags of domestic waste each bag weighing perhaps 5kg. So that is 250kg x 20p = £50. So each of the 86,000 bins costs £65 to empty say once a month. A total of £5.59m a month, or £67m a year. 

 

Even I'm staggered!

 

 

Aside of the weight i would imagine Crt pay a premium due to the mixture of hazardous and other problematic materials that end up in the domestic waste bins, it's as if being a boater exempts some from the normal journey to the tip.

On 06/10/2019 at 11:56, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

They put a fence around the bins at Great Bedwyn a few years ago and a CRT padlock. The padlock was busted off the other day presumably by local residents, given all boaters have a key. 

 

 

I'm not sure these locks are broken by random members of the public, you often find Elsan doors forced open, even open types with locked lids...not to forget water point cowlings, they get broken within days of being fitted. 

[Boater Sam]

15 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

There was a skip in the King's Lock Chandlery but it was so abused by the immediate traders that it was removed.

There was a skip in Middlewich Narrowboats yard, since the business went that has gone too.

There is nowhere on the T&M from Red Bull to Preston Brook that I know of for rubbish disposal.

There is a combination lock on the compound gate at Cropredy Wharf for the skipper to access the bins and recycling. Since a local resident boater  "obtained " the combination it is frequently left open for the local builders and householders to fill to overflowing.

Its abuse that will lead to the total removal of facilities

Its the  responsibility  of us all to report abuse and demand that CRT take action under the existing waste carrying and disposal regulations which lead to the increase in fly tipping in the first place.

As an addendum to my reply, the Recycling centre tip in Middlewich on the side of the canal do now allow boaters to walk in and dispose of practically all waste except tyres and gas cylinders.

This is a distinct advance as there was for a time a ban on "none vehicular access" on H&S grounds. There is an oil disposal but quantity is limited I believe.

[Momac]

12 minutes ago, BWM said:

.....not to forget water point cowlings, they get broken within days of being fitted. 

I cant say I have witnessed that .

Is it boat owners?

[BWM]

10 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I cant say I have witnessed that .

Is it boat owners?

I can't imagine who else would be carrying the necessary tools or need to use one in some of the more remote locations, but more common in and around London. It's not unusual to meet people boating through nowadays who don't possess mooring pins so i suspect there are even more without a bw key.

[bagginz]

3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I too was wondering why we need bins when there is a perfectly good canal there to throw our rubbish in, in the traditional time-honoured manner.

 

 

No.     I can't believe you'd be so irresponsible

 

The canal is for shopping trolleys, bicycle frames and old spring mattresses

[BruceinSanity]

1 hour ago, Boater Sam said:

There is nowhere on the T&M from Red Bull to Preston Brook that I know of for rubbish disposal.

Wheelock, Anderton.

[Mike Todd]

On 06/10/2019 at 19:45, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I disagree. I think boats and boaters cost CRT an absolute shedload of money far in excess of the sum of their licence fees. 

 

Without boats, CRT would only need to keep the water 6" deep as a linear duck pond. Locks would rarely need rebuilding, winter stoppages for engineering works would be a thing of the past and the massively expensive boat spotting/movement enforcement operation could be scrapped. Also the large bureaucracy administering licensing would no longer be needed. Also the £67m spent annually on rubbish collection would be unnecessary.

 

'Tis my opinion too that CRT's long term aim is to get rid of boaters having done some sums and realised they would be financially better off without them. Their behaviour towards boaters certainly indicates this unwritten policy. 

As happened with parts if the Rochdale when closed, making restoration harder and we still live with the effects.

[dmr]

On 06/10/2019 at 19:45, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I disagree. I think boats and boaters cost CRT an absolute shedload of money far in excess of the sum of their licence fees. 

 

Without boats, CRT would only need to keep the water 6" deep as a linear duck pond. Locks would rarely need rebuilding, winter stoppages for engineering works would be a thing of the past and the massively expensive boat spotting/movement enforcement operation could be scrapped. Also the large bureaucracy administering licensing would no longer be needed. Also the £67m spent annually on rubbish collection would be unnecessary.

 

'Tis my opinion too that CRT's long term aim is to get rid of boaters having done some sums and realised they would be financially better off without them. Their behaviour towards boaters certainly indicates this unwritten policy. 

And hence diverting their energy into cycling and wellbeing etc.

The fact that they were set up to look after canals and navigation is of no importance, CRT have become an "organisation" and the main drive of many organisations is their own survival and "profitability". The fact that they need to keep stating that "boating is at the centre of everything we do" means that it almost certainly isn't.

 

Remember a brewery called Whitbread?, they did not really want to keep brewing beer because they were not very good at it, but the organisation wanted to survive, so now they do coffee shops and hotels.

Pubs to coffee shops?

Canals to cycleways?

 

................Dave

[Momac]

12 hours ago, BWM said:

I can't imagine who else would be carrying the necessary tools or need to use one in some of the more remote locations, but more common in and around London. It's not unusual to meet people boating through nowadays who don't possess mooring pins so i suspect there are even more without a bw key.

It's been at least 10 years since I bought a key and it was about a fiver.... not exactly expensive.

I guess there will inconsiderate and otherwise undesirable people among any large group. 

[Athy]

13 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

There is a combination lock on the compound gate at Cropredy Wharf for the skipper to access the bins and recycling. Since a local resident boater  "obtained " the combination it is frequently left open for the local builders and householders to fill to overflowing.

 

Not exactly.

"The skipper" (by which I assume you mean someone on a boat) has direct access to the bins, which are kept behind fencing which has no lock. The yard has a gate on the road side, but it isn't particularly high and has a low (about 2'6") stone wall either side so that if, for example, you're moored nearby and want to take your rubbish and your cassette, access is fairly easy. There are also recycling bins, though for glass only.

The gate was left unlocked for a while about 2 years ago, but in my experience it has always been locked since then unless CART vehicles are using the yard.

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, Athy said:

… the yard has a gate on the road side, but it isn't particularly high and has a low (about 2'6") stone wall either side

A less than waist high wall wouldn't appear to be much of a barrier to entry.

[Athy]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A less than waist high wall wouldn't appear to be much of a barrier to entry.

Fortunately not - many boaters use the site, especially the elsan disposal facility, and if they all tried to moor at the wharf to use it there would be traffic chaos.

It does stop builders' lorries from getting into the yard, though. I am not sure that I have seen builders' waste there, though it would be hard to distinguish between it and boat fit-out waste.

[Momac]

At West Stockwith a few weeks ago the bins had some bulky  upholstered seating in them. Stuff that should have been taken to the local council waste site.

 

 

[Boater Sam]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

Not exactly.

"The skipper" (by which I assume you mean someone on a boat) has direct access to the bins, which are kept behind fencing which has no lock. The yard has a gate on the road side, but it isn't particularly high and has a low (about 2'6") stone wall either side so that if, for example, you're moored nearby and want to take your rubbish and your cassette, access is fairly easy. There are also recycling bins, though for glass only.

The gate was left unlocked for a while about 2 years ago, but in my experience it has always been locked since then unless CART vehicles are using the yard.

Skipper, man with truck who empties skips. He has the key code.

 

Athy, watch a certain Pearson's farm moorer with 2 dogs and a Volvo when he opens the gate. He also has the key code!

[David Mack]

14 hours ago, dmr said:

 

Remember a brewery called Whitbread?, they did not really want to keep brewing beer because they were not very good at it, but the organisation wanted to survive, so now they do coffee shops and hotels.

That was as a result of the 1989 Beer Orders, which broke up all the previous big brewery/pub chains. No brewery could own more than 2000 pubs, so lots of pubs were sold to the new pubcos, Grand Metropolitan and Courage did a pubs for breweries swap, Allied sold to Carlsberg and Bass and Whitbread both sold their brewing interests to concentrate on their hotel businesses. 

And Whitbread no longer have much interest in coffee, having sold Costa to Coca-Cola earlier this year.

[Athy]

4 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

Skipper, man with truck who empties skips. He has the key code.

 

Athy, watch a certain Pearson's farm moorer with 2 dogs and a Volvo when he opens the gate. He also has the key code!

I hadn't met "skipper" in that meaning, but it makes perfect sense - and of course he'd need the code. I thought the local dustbin lorries emptied the skips at the yard.

 

You mean the man (whose name I do know) whom we refer to  as "Mr. Manydogs". I think he and his wife have four or five on board.