Is this the thin end of the wedge ?

[mrsmelly]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

We have to pay Biffa £15 + VAT per bin, per collection and then 20p/kg to remove / dispose of the contents.

 

I can understand C&RTs money-saving plans when you consider the cost of emptying the 86,000 bins that they have (C&RT figure)

I think many people who have never run a business dont understand many of the costs? Having paid many thousands of pounds out over the years for rubbish disposal at various premises I have often wondered at the cost for something the size of CART. I was at my old mums earlier in the week and her parish council leaflet came through the door so I had a squint. Her local council had an article proudly stating up to five articles removed for fifty pounds to a household. The list included such as old doors etc.

[Momac]

23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

We have to pay Biffa £15 + VAT per bin, per collection and then 20p/kg to remove / dispose of the contents.

I have done a few waste projects.

When in operation they tend to have a certain aroma. It's the smell of money. 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

We have to pay Biffa £15 + VAT per bin, per collection and then 20p/kg to remove / dispose of the contents.

 

I can understand C&RTs money-saving plans when you consider the cost of emptying the 86,000 bins that they have (C&RT figure)

 

I too was thinking the cost to CRT for disposal of rubbish is probably a lot bigger than most people think.

 

What would be a typical weight of contents in one of those commercial wheeled bins that CRT give us Alan? I'd guess they hold about 50 bin bags of domestic waste each bag weighing perhaps 5kg. So that is 250kg x 20p = £50. So each of the 86,000 bins costs £65 to empty say once a month. A total of £5.59m a month, or £67m a year. 

 

Even I'm staggered!

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

28 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

What would be a typical weight of contents in one of those commercial wheeled bins that CRT give us Alan?

We have 750 litre wheely bins (medium sized - I think C&RT's are 1100 litre)

Domestic wheely-bins are normally 240 litre & we have two of those issued by the Council (one 'black' and one 'green') I try to ensure as much heavy stuff as possible goes into the council bin (not charged by weight and paid for out of council tax)

 

Ours is collected fortnightly and with 'domestic rubbish' (excluding re-cyclable) the 750 litre bin would normally have 40-50kgs contents.

 

Edit to add :

 

Our marina has 6 x 1100 litre 'general waste' bins and 2 x 1100 litre 'recyclable' bins - they are all emptied weekly.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[bagginz]

16 hours ago, The Dreamer said:

What always gets me is that almost all CRT bin compounds, that I visit, are not locked.  I know that just about anyone can get a rip off Watermate key from eBay, but it’s the fact that they don’t even try to prevent “abuse” of these facilities...

This ^

 

An obvious and reasonably cheap measure that would prevent *most* of the abuse. 

[MtB]

41 minutes ago, bagginz said:

This ^

 

An obvious and reasonably cheap measure that would prevent *most* of the abuse. 

 

They put a fence around the bins at Great Bedwyn a few years ago and a CRT padlock. The padlock was busted off the other day presumably by local residents, given all boaters have a key. 

 

 

[bagginz]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

They put a fence around the bins at Great Bedwyn a few years ago and a CRT padlock. The padlock was busted off the other day presumably by local residents, given all boaters have a key. 

 

 

 

A broken padlock or even ongoing broken padlocks doesn't invalidate a good idea. 

 

Almost everyone breaks the speed limit, speed cameras are vandalised, yet it's a still good idea to enforce speed limits. 

 

Any system will require some ongoing maintenance/resources to ensure enforcement/compliance.   

 

Given: 1. The system is already in place  2. all boaters have a key, 3. replacing padlocks, chains and gate locks are relatively cheap  it strikes me as the cheapest, most cost effective and non-disruptive solution. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by bagginz

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

15 hours ago, dmr said:

 

If I was the sort of person who took a winter mooring and did not move for several months then paying somebody to take a bin bag away might be tempting if the alternative was a very long walk to a CRT bin.

It will take time, at present we all regard rubbish disposal as a free service but its actually getting more and more expensive. The big problem is that if there is not some level of free service then it encourages fly tipping.

Its never easy to start charging for a service that is currently free which is why I suggested that collection from the boat could be an optional extra.

Its a bit like buying diesel, I could maybe save a few pence by collecting my own diesel but buying off Halsall is more convenient and much more enjoyable. 

 

As for emptying CRT wheeley bins then I really don't know, but it would obviously have to be priced such that somebody could make a basic living out of doing it.

 

..............Dave

I’ve never thought of it as a free service. Always thought that’s why we pay a license fee. 

 

A really easy thing: 

leave hoppers dotted about on the offside for passing boaters to chuck their rubbish in. 

the hoppers can be compartmented with bottle banks etc. 

Then the compartments are lift on to the bank at CRT compounds. 

 

 

 

 

 

Then the contents can be fly tipped at random places. 

 

 

 

[Nobag]

7 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I too was thinking the cost to CRT for disposal of rubbish is probably a lot bigger than most people think.

 

What would be a typical weight of contents in one of those commercial wheeled bins that CRT give us Alan? I'd guess they hold about 50 bin bags of domestic waste each bag weighing perhaps 5kg. So that is 250kg x 20p = £50. So each of the 86,000 bins costs £65 to empty say once a month. A total of £5.59m a month, or £67m a year. 

 

Even I'm staggered!

 

 

In Saul Junction they have 3 X 1100 bins in the car park. 2 general waste , 1 recycling. All emptied into the same lorry. How does that work.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

13 minutes ago, Nobag said:

In Saul Junction they have 3 X 1100 bins in the car park. 2 general waste , 1 recycling. All emptied into the same lorry. How does that work.

Off to the incinerator 

[Nobag]

1 minute ago, Goliath said:

Off to the incinerator 

Spect they pay extra for the recycling bin.

[cuthound]

The company I used to.work for operated an incinerator in Slough.

 

By gradually heating it up, they could recover different metals because each metal melts at a different temperature.

 

The wastevheat was used to make steam to drive a turbine to make electricity to sell back to the national grid.

 

They used to obtain rubbish to burn by charging local authorities less than the landfill tax.

 

They also bought food waste and put it in an aerobic digester, which gave off methane. This was used to drive a spark compression generator, which made electricity to sell back to the national grid.

Edited October 6, 2019 by cuthound
Missing spaces

[dmr]

3 hours ago, Goliath said:

I’ve never thought of it as a free service. Always thought that’s why we pay a license fee. 

 

A really easy thing: 

leave hoppers dotted about on the offside for passing boaters to chuck their rubbish in. 

the hoppers can be compartmented with bottle banks etc. 

Then the compartments are lift on to the bank at CRT compounds. 

 

 

 

 

 

Then the contents can be fly tipped at random places. 

 

 

 

Its a free service for the local residents.

 

The way I see it is that we pay a one-off licence fee and then everything is free. (except pump-outs)

It would be a very sad if rubbish disposal and tap water became a pay as you go service, then pay per mile, pay per lock.

I can see an argument for CCers and share boats paying a bit extra as we are "high usage" boaters. I realise this is a turkey voting for Christmas but boaters paying more might be good. I see a slightly sinister trend in CRT selling off BWML, and now thinking of dropping winter moorings, they are working toward a future where boating income is a much smaller percentage of the total income, then one day they won't want or need boats anymore.

 

Just arrived at Fradley, up the T&M tomoro, where are you? we could meet for a beer and invent a new rubbish system for CRT

 

.............Dave

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

15 minutes ago, dmr said:

Its a free service for the local residents.

 

The way I see it is that we pay a one-off licence fee and then everything is free. (except pump-outs)

It would be a very sad if rubbish disposal and tap water became a pay as you go service, then pay per mile, pay per lock.

I can see an argument for CCers and share boats paying a bit extra as we are "high usage" boaters. I realise this is a turkey voting for Christmas but boaters paying more might be good. I see a slightly sinister trend in CRT selling off BWML, and now thinking of dropping winter moorings, they are working toward a future where boating income is a much smaller percentage of the total income, then one day they won't want or need boats anymore.

 

Just arrived at Fradley, up the T&M tomoro, where are you? we could meet for a beer and invent a new rubbish system for CRT

 

.............Dave

Not that old chestnut. 

We pay for a licence to use the system as much or little as we need. If someone don’t make use of their license that’s their tough cheese. 

 

Have to be in Stone next weekend. Going through tunnel Saturday. 

If I can go earlier I will. 

 

A meeting at the Holy Inadequate would be perfect. But might be hard to time.

 

 

 

[Momac]

17 minutes ago, dmr said:

 one day they won't want or need boats anymore.

I dont  want to think about the UK waterways without boats.

 

 

[Mike Todd]

19 hours ago, dmr said:

 

If I was the sort of person who took a winter mooring and did not move for several months then paying somebody to take a bin bag away might be tempting if the alternative was a very long walk to a CRT bin.

It will take time, at present we all regard rubbish disposal as a free service but its actually getting more and more expensive. The big problem is that if there is not some level of free service then it encourages fly tipping.

Its never easy to start charging for a service that is currently free which is why I suggested that collection from the boat could be an optional extra.

Its a bit like buying diesel, I could maybe save a few pence by collecting my own diesel but buying off Halsall is more convenient and much more enjoyable. 

 

As for emptying CRT wheeley bins then I really don't know, but it would obviously have to be priced such that somebody could make a basic living out of doing it.

 

..............Dave

Seems torok in central London.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

3 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I dont  want to think about the UK waterways without boats.

 

 

I don’t want to think. 

 

 

 

 

[dmr]

7 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Not that old chestnut. 

We pay for a licence to use the system as much or little as we need. If someone don’t make use of their license that’s their tough cheese. 

 

Have to be in Stone next weekend. Going through tunnel Saturday. 

If I can go earlier I will. 

 

A meeting at the Holy Inadequate would be perfect. But might be hard to time.

 

 

 

Old, but increasingly important.

The percentage of CRT income from boating is rapidly falling.

I also suspect CRT are selling of canalside property and re-investing in general property so even the property income will no longer be canal related.

They are cheating quite a bit because they include towpath upgrades (cyclepaths) as income whilst really they are letting third parties (sustrans) build their own infrasture (cyclepaths) on CRT property free of charge so actually its not really income at all.

 

I also note that the new boaters report that they are producing emphasis that boating cost CRT a lot of money.

 

..............Dave

 

[The Dreamer]

51 minutes ago, dmr said:

one day they won't want or need boats anymore.

Oh, woe is the poor boater.  The CRT will always need boaters, we still contribute a good chunk of money, albeit nothing like a majority, to their overall income.  However aside from that, boats are part of the waterways landscape, that add to the attraction for ramblers, cyclists, pub goes, and dare I say it, probably even fisherfolk.

 

With respect, comments like this are just a tad scaremongery.

Edited October 6, 2019 by The Dreamer

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, The Dreamer said:

Oh, woe is the poor boater.  The CRT will always need boaters, we still contribute a good chunk of money, albeit nothing like a majority, to their overall income.

 

I disagree. I think boats and boaters cost CRT an absolute shedload of money far in excess of the sum of their licence fees. 

 

Without boats, CRT would only need to keep the water 6" deep as a linear duck pond. Locks would rarely need rebuilding, winter stoppages for engineering works would be a thing of the past and the massively expensive boat spotting/movement enforcement operation could be scrapped. Also the large bureaucracy administering licensing would no longer be needed. Also the £67m spent annually on rubbish collection would be unnecessary.

 

'Tis my opinion too that CRT's long term aim is to get rid of boaters having done some sums and realised they would be financially better off without them. Their behaviour towards boaters certainly indicates this unwritten policy. 

[dmr]

9 minutes ago, The Dreamer said:

Oh, woe is the poor boater.  The CRT will always need boaters, we still contribute a good chunk of money, albeit nothing like a majority, to their overall income.  However aside from that, boats are part of the waterways landscape, that add to the attraction for ramblers, cyclists, pub goes, and dare I say it, probably even fisherfolk.

 

With respect, comments like this are just a tad scaremongery.

I don't fully share your optimism here.

Boaters put in a small part of CRTs total income, but maintaining navigation costs a big part of CRTs expenditure.

Boaters are not at all cost effective and building weirs across the locks would keep the cyclists and fishers happy.

Remember only recently Scottish Waterways said "we have re-imagined our canals and this does not include navigation".

There ARE people in CRT who think the same way.

A few static boats at popular visitor hotspots could provide the boating interest for walkers.

We are safe for now, but don't be complacent.

If a couple more reservoirs fail we could be in big trouble.

 

...............Dave

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Tis my opinion too that CRT's long term aim is to get rid of boaters having done some sums and realised they would be financially better off without them. Their behaviour towards boaters certainly indicates this unwritten policy. 

Some years ago we had a business evaluation of 'where we are & where we want to be'.

 

We found that in the UK we had approximately 5000 customers of which 3000+ spent under £100 per annum with us and that it was uneconomical to service their account, so, we decided to pass them over to a few nominated distributors, the distributors were geared up to handle small orders and they could place consolidated (large) orders with us.

 

Many of the customers were not happy but the majority accepted the situation and purchased from the distributors.

 

The following year our profitability rose tremendously.

 

Nothing to do with canals - but - a supporting example that the ethos that getting rid of customers can be beneficial to the business.

 

I too believe that over the short to medium term C&RT will increase prices, reduce services and gradually 'force' boaters off the water.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

 

At least one thing we can all look forward to is death. 

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by Goliath

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Goliath said:

 

At least that’s  one thing we can all look forward to is death. 

 

 

Life.. a sexually transmitted condition that is invariably fatal.

[The Dreamer]

12 minutes ago, dmr said:

We are safe for now, but don't be complacent.

Not complacent, and appreciate that boats will always need to lobby, and also need to prove our worth.

 

13 minutes ago, dmr said:

If a couple more reservoirs fail we could be in big trouble.

This I accept, in so much as the reservoirs are needed to maintain water depth, however the failure of a reservoir and the associated liability impacts all users of the network, not just boaters.