Newb Technical Questions (narrowboat spaceships)

[ditchcrawler]

For number 3, I got fed up reading shortly after that see 

 

14 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

Its possible means that you know much more than I do about narrowboats and UK canals then. Rather than i could answer these questions easily you may just be smarter than me. I have been researching narrow boats for about 6 months. I still cant answer these from the other side of the earth. The people who have narrowboat youtubes are not technical. I want to build a narrowboat from a project hull. 50% of these questions are things i want to do on my narrowboat but perhaps their is good reasons why not. So far my questions on this forum have gotten me more details than hours of youtubes. Many thanks for your help in advance. 

 

I could summarize as :

1. What are the long term aspirations of the river and canal trust. Whats the long term vision or goal to make the canals better?  Answer - nothing its a bureaucratic mess and we are all lucky if they widen and fix the absolute worst canals and locks from being unusable.  

 

 

To survive unscathed until the boss man gets his pension and some other poor bugger picks up the dross left behind Nothing in the UK is planned more than 5 years ahead especially government as they may not still be here

[ditchcrawler]

To save you searching it is here https://www.canalboat.co.uk/canal-boats/boat-tests/fernwood-a-a-white-1-2257916

[Mac of Cygnet]

I must say I'm full of admiration for Tony's patience.  He must have been hard up for something to do this morning.

[The Dreamer]

I wonder if you are treating the British canal and river network, narrowboats, and the kind folk who frequent them as a problem that needs solving?  If so, with respect you are missing the point.  Yes the Canal and River Trust can be a bureaucratic pain, yes the canals lack depth and at times even water, and yes narrowboats are 19th century technology, slightly updated in the 20th century.  But to say that all of this needs to be modernised is like attempting to straighten that slightly crooked Italian tower!  For sure, things move on, otherwise we would all still have a horse and towline, but at a pace that suits the community.

 

All of the above said, if you want to build a technological revolution of a boat, go right ahead, but I am not so sure you will enjoy it as much as if you stuck with what is already out there.   

[Tony Brooks]

38 minutes ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

I must say I'm full of admiration for Tony's patience.  He must have been hard up for something to do this morning.

I suspect the man's a dreamer (or insert own words) but he needs to be given some kind of answers and then we will see by his responses. He certainly seem to think canal boats tow a big electric cable behind able to power his modern gizmos ideas. His best way forward would be to come over and hire a narrowboat for a week to see how it all fits rather than watching U tube videos that can only ever show a partial view of things.

[Boater Sam]

Nah, the answer is in the title, he's from another planet, or just another nutter. The waterways are full of 'em.

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

I must say I'm full of admiration for Tony's patience.  He must have been hard up for something to do this morning.

 

Yes, a virtual greeno from me enawll.

[The Dreamer]

45 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I suspect the man's a dreamer

Don’t tarnish the good name of Dreamers!  Some of us actually get on and do the doing...

Edited October 5, 2019 by The Dreamer

[cksantos85]

12 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Look up the narrowboat Whitfield to see wha happens when yo deviate from the proven. The owners pay loads of money and sold within a year or so.

Discussed only a few days ago on here. Very low efficiency and the amount of electricity generated would be insignificant compared with the demand.

The biggest problem on boats is provision of sufficient electricity so anything "new" that demands it is a non-starter in most cases. Anyway Methane is a greenhouse gas and that should be discouraged. A number of boaters are trying to run aerobic partial treatment systems that do not produce (much) methane. Anyway I nsuspect such system need very regular maintenance like back flushing etc.

And who is going to pay for that? You don't need pristine water and even if you could get it you would still have rat urine etc. to worry about.

Some do. I disagree with your technical conclusion. When packless glands start to leak they are far more difficult to bodge than packed glands so you can get to help. Anyway in the UK packless glands tend to be coupled with rubber Cutless bearings that may not be such a bright idea when boating through mud slurry.

Ever looked at how well dry wall boards fare when kept damp? Wood only rots if not treated and kept reasonably dry. Not ugly in many peoples eyes when properly finished including mine. Fire board is used where there is a danger of ignition but is usually covered with a noncvombustible decorative finish. Maybe you would do away with PVC electrical cables because it can catch fire - and the plastic/rubber parts associated with the engine etc.

Some do fit underfloor heating but the underfloor space is very small height wise. Anyway if you are using tiles it almost certainly uses electricity and as a very knowledgable chap once said - only an idiot woudl try to use electricity to produce heat on a boat.

Answered

Because they produce loads of runny waste that is deemed "hazardous waste" in the UK so is very expensive to deal with.

Answered

Some do but you loose most of the feel/feed back and it is hard to steer a long boat from the front - see Whitfield. Yes, you can feel and see what is going on in confined canals. You can also feel when the prop fouls.

Probably but try stopping a 14 ton boat with a low HP motor. Back to the shortage of eletricity

No idea but have you seen the number of so called traveler boats that most sensible people would not want moored near their properties burning very smokey stove fuel?

No idea bout many tens of thousands or pounds, maybe hundreds of thousands of pounds depending upon the structure, access and ground. It seems the UK  governemnt thinks the value is very little and considers canals and their infrastructure a drain on the Treasury.

It does, it has three/four. Look on a decent map and also take note of the topography.

Depends upon what you mean

Water is, in the main, a very precious commodity so can not be spared to run such items 24/7. In all probability the amount generated woudl be less than the maintenance costs. They are used on several river locations where water is readily available.

Some are fairly clean apart from mud in suspension and some may still be heavily polluted from past industry, especially after dredging.Look up anal side industries of teh past and you will get an idea of probable pollutants.

At least one filter company says you can but I am not convinced because of the industrial pollutants present in some areas. Back to the need for electricity again. Not a lot of condensation in summer.

I am sure some hippy boats do but the number of water points makes it totally unnecessary. You will pass several most days and NB tanks hold sebveral days worth of water.

If you mean tank water then yes and most probably do not even filter it. In the UK the tap water contains sufficient residual chlorine to render it safe in tanks fo a reasonable time.

 

Bro Ima  buy you a beer for talking me out of so many stupid ideas i thought were great. Getting mud and silt into a drip less bearing sounds terrifying now that u mention it. The only idea that might work is a small aerobic membrane for the toilet. But it would need smallest power draw possible and its own small battery and isolator. The whole "feeling the canals" reasoning for tiller style location and use makes sense and ultimately affects resale i bet if you get all weird. I never thought about what happens when an ecological disaster shows up at a million dollar canal house to moor up lol. I also had no idea the govt didnt like the locks, you guys need to run for office stuff the courts with boaters. Create a canal secret society to funnel money into canals. They only were public in the 90s? Boaters going from 0 to 20k to 30k in a decade or 2 crazy. They should all be world heritage sites even the ones that need restoration. 

12 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Currently on (the majority of) locks the paddles (to let the water in/out) are wound up/down by a handle (lock key) / windlass) on the end of a shaft, the shaft has a toothed cog which engages with a toothed cog on the paddle, winding lifts / drops the paddle.

 

Hydraulic ones are simply that - replace all the paddle gear with a hydraulic system.

 

 

 

Got it. Sounds like more shit to break given what youve told me so far. 

Edited October 5, 2019 by cksantos85

[cksantos85]

12 hours ago, Jerra said:

3. Why dont pump out toilet users have aerobic membrane filters with UV treatment. This would allow the discharge of most the liquids of black water and grey water together into canal cleaner than the canal is.

 

You do realise that pump out toilets don't empty into the canal don't you?

yes. but with proper filtration you could. Im a plumber most this stuff is off the shelf for septic tanks in locations with poor soil absorption or heavy use. membranes can be bought from china as they are used in wastewater treatment plants. 

[Iain_S]

12 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

(snip)

Also on the Scotland comment theirs only 1 correct? and its no where near the nothern london system. and irelands system is a pipe dream away from england on a narrowboat so my dreams of UK wide boating are dashed none the less. 

4 ; Caledonian, Crinan, Forth and Clyde and Edinburgh and Glasgow Union. That's not counting the numerous closed and disused ones. None of the Scottish ones are designed for narrowboats (narrowboats are very much discouraged on the Caledonian, and ours is one of two that have traversed the Crinan) ; the Union was 70' (ish) by 12'6", the Forth and Clyde was 66' x 19'6", Crinan same beam, but 80' length, Caledonian 150' x 35'.

Apart from the Union Canal, best boat is sea going, but is constrained by depth on the Forth and Clyde to 1.8 metres. (2 metres is OK, provided the Kelpie Cut isn't used, and the boat is long keeled)

[cksantos85]

6 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

To save you searching it is here https://www.canalboat.co.uk/canal-boats/boat-tests/fernwood-a-a-white-1-2257916

epic this sounds similar to my line of thinking. great to know it failed. failures teach us more than success. and id much rather go off other failures. 

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, cksantos85 said:

yes. but with proper filtration you could. Im a plumber most this stuff is off the shelf for septic tanks in locations with poor soil absorption or heavy use. membranes can be bought from china as they are used in wastewater treatment plants. 

And I guess you flush a gallon of water to every pee. What is in a boat tank is a lot more concentrated 

[cksantos85]

5 hours ago, The Dreamer said:

I wonder if you are treating the British canal and river network, narrowboats, and the kind folk who frequent them as a problem that needs solving?  If so, with respect you are missing the point.  Yes the Canal and River Trust can be a bureaucratic pain, yes the canals lack depth and at times even water, and yes narrowboats are 19th century technology, slightly updated in the 20th century.  But to say that all of this needs to be modernised is like attempting to straighten that slightly crooked Italian tower!  For sure, things move on, otherwise we would all still have a horse and towline, but at a pace that suits the community.

 

All of the above said, if you want to build a technological revolution of a boat, go right ahead, but I am not so sure you will enjoy it as much as if you stuck with what is already out there.   

I have come to the same conclusion. I was missing the point of the history, etc. My fascination with technology led me to want to apply any of that knowlegde i could but at some point its not a british narrowboat any more and then there is less sense of purpose. 

 

[Ray T]

A variation of steering control, never caught on, possibly more to capture rope, poly bags mattresses etc.

 

 

"Modern" ideas tend not to work well on 200 year old systems & technology.

 

One reason we like the canals and our 20 year old boat is to get away from modern gizmos & technology and above all to slow down and live life at 3mph not the frenetic pace of today.

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by Ray T

[cksantos85]

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I suspect the man's a dreamer (or insert own words) but he needs to be given some kind of answers and then we will see by his responses. He certainly seem to think canal boats tow a big electric cable behind able to power his modern gizmos ideas. His best way forward would be to come over and hire a narrowboat for a week to see how it all fits rather than watching U tube videos that can only ever show a partial view of things.

Im the dreamerest dreamer. Im gonna make the canals great again. Hahahahha im totally joking by the way. I will definitely come visit soon. Runs about 8k in tickets from where i live with my family size. Its not economical to just hop on over and check it out. Im either buying a boat or doing it once. Seems like 6 months of renting costs as much as a shitty boat. I could go by myself to check things out and get a reality check for the rest of family but then my wife might kill me.  Growing up on an island in the middle of the sea im kinda weird and a dreamer. So i figured i might fit in just fine. 

Edited October 5, 2019 by cksantos85

[cksantos85]

13 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

And I guess you flush a gallon of water to every pee. What is in a boat tank is a lot more concentrated 

Ha yes. Im used to regular toilets. I hate boat toilets they are not ideal IMO. As a plumber im picky about my shitting situation. A cassette toilet dosent seem to bad if i was solo. But family of 6? Im gonna need a ton of power and poop capacity. 

[Ray T]

Just now, cksantos85 said:

Ha yes. Im used to regular toilets. I hate boat toilets they are not ideal IMO. As a plumber im picky about my shitting situation. A cassette toilet dosent seem to bad if i was solo. But family of 6? Im gonna need a ton of power and poop capacity. 

Buy an ex hire boat that sleeps 8/10 has two bogs.

 

 

An example from here: https://rose-narrowboats.co.uk/narrowboat.htm

Edited October 5, 2019 by Ray T

[Dr Bob]

4 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

Nah, the answer is in the title, he's from another planet, or just another nutter. The waterways are full of 'em.

But is he from another planet?

In the other thread I mentioned a beach in Hawaii and he never responded (but then everyone ignores me). I also am not seeing much (any) americanisms in this posts. Maybe he's from another forum?

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

But is he from another planet?

In the other thread I mentioned a beach in Hawaii and he never responded (but then everyone ignores me). I also am not seeing much (any) americanisms in this posts. Maybe he's from another forum?

Nah.  Cole is both real and posting under his own name.  He's just American.  Two nations divided by a common language and all that ... 

 

 

[Graham Davis]

13 minutes ago, cksantos85 said:

Ha yes. Im used to regular toilets. I hate boat toilets they are not ideal IMO. As a plumber im picky about my shitting situation. A cassette toilet dosent seem to bad if i was solo. But family of 6? Im gonna need a ton of power and poop capacity. 

That suggest you don't know anything about cassette toilets. I can assure you they need NO power.

[TheBiscuits]

@cksantos85

 

I don't feel the need to respond to your list of questions, as you have had enough replies to them.

 

You probably need to figure out that narrowboats are not boats as you understand them.  A 70ft yacht is a huge creature, and a great place to live even with a family.  For a better idea, get a skip (dumpster).  Stretch it to between 50 and 70 feet long.  Try to live in it.

 

The only reason anyone would choose to have a 70ft x 7ft boat is so it fits through canal locks that were built on the cheap about the time the United States were declaring independence from Britain. 

 

The liveaboards who don't pay for a mooring with electric hookup generate all their own power from diesel or petrol (gasoline) at about $6 per (US) gallon.  There was a recent thread on here that worked it out at about £14 per KWh compared to buying off the grid at about £0.15 per KWh.  The reason we are tightwads with electricity is that it costs us about a hundred times more to make it ourselves than it does to buy it in, and we don't have anywhere to plug into.

 

 

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

The reason we are tightwads with electricity is that it costs us about a hundred times more to make it ourselves than it does to buy it in, and we don't have anywhere to plug into.

 

Ahem.

 

My electricity is free for nine months of the year.

 

 

[cksantos85]

4 minutes ago, Ray T said:

Buy an ex hire boat that sleeps 8/10 has two bogs.

 

 

An example from here: https://rose-narrowboats.co.uk/narrowboat.htm

I am slowly coming to the realization that is the best course of action. The only downside is that ex hire boats are pricey. I was thinking about buying a dump and working on it before family shows up. Its amazing how cheap some boats are and i love projects. I built my boat in hawaii from a bare old hull. Yes i understand they need more work but to be honest i cant see much diff from a 5k boat and a 15k boat. IF i go up to 25k or 40k i can have what i want. 

[TheBiscuits]

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

My electricity is free for nine months of the year.

Only if the sun shines.

 

You get a lot more of in Hawaii than Yorkshire ...

 

And it's only "free" if you don't count the cost of the solar systems.   Didn't you need to spend quite a bit on *ahem* monitoring devices and batteries as well as the solar panels? 

 

And the whispergen that I'm jealous about.