Newb Technical Questions (narrowboat spaceships)

[cksantos85]

46 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

But is he from another planet?

In the other thread I mentioned a beach in Hawaii and he never responded (but then everyone ignores me). I also am not seeing much (any) americanisms in this posts. Maybe he's from another forum?

I am from Hawaii. I have never used another forum. Didn't see that post. I live on Maui, was born here so im some what stuck on the rock. I don't have as many Americanisms because Hawaii is more multicultural. I am also into space habitats as a hobby here is a link to my previous spaceship projects. 

 

https://www.instructables.com/id/Hackerspace-Earthship-HAESH-Homemade-Environmental/

 

43 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

That suggest you don't know anything about cassette toilets. I can assure you they need NO power.

Your mixing my two statements as if they are connected. I am poor communicator. I understand the process for both. 

[Iain_S]

22 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

EDIT: perhaps due to the shear amount of questions feel free to focus on one question instead of dismissing the entire list. 

 

So I posted a silly questions post last night. Today i have some more serious technical questions as follows below. 

 

1. Why are narrow boats not designed to be bidirectional so that winding holes are not necessary. Either engines at both sides or directional thruster jets with an impeller(think jetski with more thrust vectoring.) or even Voith Schneider propellers(VSP) or perhaps just mount the entire boat with a dozen bow thrusters all over. Joy stick controls even. 

 

2. Why don't narrow-boaters use peltier modules or freepiston sterling generators on their stoves and engines to create power from waste heat. 

 

3. Why dont pump out toilet users have aerobic membrane filters with UV treatment. This would allow the discharge of most the liquids of black water and grey water together into canal cleaner than the canal is. Pump outs would occur 10x less often. Aerobic treatment removes a huge percentage of fecal mass via methanogen bacteria. Membrane filter removes only clean water from tank. Can be uv filtered and disposed in canal as it would be near drinkable at that point. Pump out biannually like a septic tank

 

4. Why do the canals not have active or passive filtration via artificial wetlands or even waste water treatment technology? Water quality could be pristine. You could even require a small filter on each vessel so that its distributed. 

 

5. Do narrow boaters use dripless bearings? Why is everyone on youtube using grease packing? Dripless is so superior from a technical standpoint. 

 

6. Why is there so much wood and not drywall or even cement board on a boat walls. Wood rots, its ugly, lights on fire etc.

 

7. Why is no ones floor tiled with radiant heating? Seems like it could be part of ballast if designed properly. 

 

8. Why dosent the canal trust put more electrical sockets on the cut. I imagine that a for-profit could manage and grow the system with some kind of access cards and normal financing. I think you could have sockets on 20% of moorings within a few years just with leases from canal side houses and businesses. Could charge boaters 10x cost to buy power from utility and it would still be better than what most are paying/doing for power now. 

 

9. Why dosent the canal authority use suction dredges to clean the canals. I only see back hoes and such in videos. 

 

10. Why are people using outboards at all? Also why arent more people using them?

 

11. Why dont more people steer from the front or middle using hydraulic steering cables? Is there advantages to the old school steering rudder design? 

 

12. Would an electric trolling motor move a narrow boat? Why dont people have a trolling motor for short hops and silent maneuvering slowly. In addition the the main motor. 

 

13. Why dont people who own canalside land develop the relationhip with the canal better in terms of real estate development. Seems like many opportunities to turn the canals into a world treasure. 

 

14. How much does it cost to make a length of canal or a lock. Assuming volunteers and what not like river trust does. Im trying to figure out why their isent more of these systems being built around the world. Do they only exist because of cheap labor done by coal extraction long ago? What is the monetary value of the canal system in total or even sections. 

 

15. Why is there no connections into Scotland. Why dosent Scotland have canals. 

 

16. Is there a website with statistical data on canals. 

 

17 Why is there no visible micro hydro dams on the canal for power generation. Could power sections of the cut that are remote. See question 8. 

 

18 Are the canals that bad water quality? How does it vary from place to place. Does anyone test water quality. What are common poisons, lead, oil? Why are the clean areas clean and dirty areas dirty. What could be changed in the dirty areas to make them cleaner. 

 

19. Can you filter canal water enough to drink it or tank it? Reverse osmosis, and particulate filters come to mind. Also atmospheric water generators as everyone seems to get condensation a lot from my readings. 

 

20. Does anyone tank rain water?

 

21. Do you drink your tap water on the cut. 

 

 

1) KISS principle (and, I suppose, KIC(heap)S

2) Doesn't work. (search "ecofan" on this site)

3) Time and storage, plus KISS again. When owners of compost toilets advocate dumping double bagged supposedly composted waste in landfill bins, there is no chance of a full sewage treatment system being adopted.

4) CaRT seem unable to maintain the existing infrastructure. What chance filtration systems?

5) some do. However, KISS comes in again, plus dripless tend not to be when treated to a dose of silt, and, when they fail, can fail in a big way. The traditional greased bearing gives a lot of warning that it needs attention.

6) If God had meant us to have drywall boats, he'd have made drywall trees.

7) Powered by what?

8 )already answered

 9) Dunno, but the slow bit appears to be the removal of spoil, not the actual dredging. 

10) Because Inboard is easier. How big an outboard to power 17 tons or so of boat?

11) Yes. KISS, yet again, plus it's a lot easier steering from the back. Centre cockpit does work, but you do have to look behind to see what the blunt end is doing. I have driven a boat which steered from the front, and spent more time looking in the mirrors than looking ahead. All canal  boating is close quarters.

12)Met one of these once; 30' boat with two electric trolling motors on the back. Would have been quicker getting out and pushing. Various hybrid and other electric options available.

13) Have to ask them, starting with CaRT!

14)  Not just the digging; gotta make it waterproof, ensure water supply, etc. A relatively simple section on the Union Canal in Scotland came in at about £1,000,000 per mile

15) Scotland does have Canals (see above). No connection with the English system, as there are a few hills in the way, and Scotland is already connected by waterway to England. (Irish and North Seas)

16)  Try the Canal and River Trust site as a starter. Also the Canalplan site (CanalplanAC)

17) I'm sure there's at least one. Difficulties would be silt, plus water supply. If a leaky paddle can drain a pound, imagine what a hydro scheme would do. CaRT spend a fair bit pumping water uphill; negative return if that's used to generate electricity!

18) Water quality is usually pretty good; the fish do OK, anyway.

19) Yes. A mate of mine did just that; particulate filters and ultra violet for drinking water. Not really worth the bother, IMO. Lots of water points (except for London, where demand has outstripped supply)

20) Is it worth it? 

21) Yes

 

(Easy seen I've time on my hands tonight  )

 

[cksantos85]

17 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Only if the sun shines.

 

You get a lot more of in Hawaii than Yorkshire ...

 

And it's only "free" if you don't count the cost of the solar systems.   Didn't you need to spend quite a bit on *ahem* monitoring devices and batteries as well as the solar panels? 

 

And the whispergen that I'm jealous about.

You do know that wasent me that responded right? Thanks for the reply anyway. 

[cksantos85]

25 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

1) KISS principle (and, I suppose, KIC(heap)S

2) Doesn't work. (search "ecofan" on this site)

3) Time and storage, plus KISS again. When owners of compost toilets advocate dumping double bagged supposedly composted waste in landfill bins, there is no chance of a full sewage treatment system being adopted.

4) CaRT seem unable to maintain the existing infrastructure. What chance filtration systems?

5) some do. However, KISS comes in again, plus dripless tend not to be when treated to a dose of silt, and, when they fail, can fail in a big way. The traditional greased bearing gives a lot of warning that it needs attention.

6) If God had meant us to have drywall boats, he'd have made drywall trees.

7) Powered by what?

8 )already answered

 9) Dunno, but the slow bit appears to be the removal of spoil, not the actual dredging. 

10) Because Inboard is easier. How big an outboard to power 17 tons or so of boat?

11) Yes. KISS, yet again, plus it's a lot easier steering from the back. Centre cockpit does work, but you do have to look behind to see what the blunt end is doing. I have driven a boat which steered from the front, and spent more time looking in the mirrors than looking ahead. All canal  boating is close quarters.

12)Met one of these once; 30' boat with two electric trolling motors on the back. Would have been quicker getting out and pushing. Various hybrid and other electric options available.

13) Have to ask them, starting with CaRT!

14)  Not just the digging; gotta make it waterproof, ensure water supply, etc. A relatively simple section on the Union Canal in Scotland came in at about £1,000,000 per mile

15) Scotland does have Canals (see above). No connection with the English system, as there are a few hills in the way, and Scotland is already connected by waterway to England. (Irish and North Seas)

16)  Try the Canal and River Trust site as a starter. Also the Canalplan site (CanalplanAC)

17) I'm sure there's at least one. Difficulties would be silt, plus water supply. If a leaky paddle can drain a pound, imagine what a hydro scheme would do. CaRT spend a fair bit pumping water uphill; negative return if that's used to generate electricity!

18) Water quality is usually pretty good; the fish do OK, anyway.

19) Yes. A mate of mine did just that; particulate filters and ultra violet for drinking water. Not really worth the bother, IMO. Lots of water points (except for London, where demand has outstripped supply)

20) Is it worth it? 

21) Yes

 

(Easy seen I've time on my hands tonight  )

 

Great answers. I think between the lot of you all the questions are answered. #7 powered by what? answer is powered by the diesel motor hot water tank and heat exchanger and propane same way radiator systems are powered. Just seems like radiant floor pipes work well for regular houses. So it might allow ridding of raidators. Assuming you have one. 

 

Also on #2 eco fan is shit quality peltier modules. but yes they are very low conversion efficiency. sterling engines are a great alternative to an eco fan. and freepistion sterling engines exist that allow conversion to power with 70% efficiencies. 

 

KISS makes sense. I have a tendancy to over engineer beyond economically viable. 

 

Canals are amazing we should make them everywhere on the earth to the same dimensions. 

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by cksantos85

[dmr]

45 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Ahem.

 

My electricity is free for nine months of the year.

 

 

But what about the other three months?

If your toilet was critically dependent on electricity to work it would be a right pain in the ars* if you couldn't have a poo for three months

 

.........Dave

[cksantos85]

Just now, dmr said:

But what about the other three months?

If your toilet was critically dependent on electricity to work it would be a right pain in the ars* if you couldn't have a poo for three months

 

.........Dave

I guess if you wernt on the boat in the winter that might not be a problem?

[dmr]

3 minutes ago, cksantos85 said:

I guess if you wernt on the boat in the winter that might not be a problem?

More research needed!

A whole lot of us actually live in these things, all year round, generating heat and electricity is a challenge in Winter and the olde low tech ways still work best.

 

If you can invent me a nice small low cost fusion generator then I might take you seriously

 

................Dave

[MtB]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

Only if the sun shines.

 

No, I get 100% SoC by about 7am when the sun shines. When it's slashing with rain in July it can take till nearly 8.00am.

 

According to the SmartGauge anyway.

 

(See what I did there?) 

[MtB]

33 minutes ago, dmr said:

But what about the other three months?

If your toilet was critically dependent on electricity to work it would be a right pain in the ars* if you couldn't have a poo for three months

 

.........Dave

 

Then I'd come and use yours....

 

 

[cksantos85]

22 minutes ago, dmr said:

More research needed!

A whole lot of us actually live in these things, all year round, generating heat and electricity is a challenge in Winter and the olde low tech ways still work best.

 

If you can invent me a nice small low cost fusion generator then I might take you seriously

 

................Dave

I understand that but i don't think i would personally. I do have an epic idea for on-board power using coal that i may keep armchair engineering. If you made a coal syngas gassifier and integrated it with a solid oxide fuel cell you could get coal power and heat. Technology exists its not scaled for boats tho. Energy conversion rate would make your boat stove higher efficiency than a full size coal plant. 

[MtB]

7 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

I do have an epic idea for on-board power using coal that i may keep armchair engineering. If you made a coal syngas gassifier and integrated it with a solid oxide fuel cell you could get coal power and heat. Technology exists its not scaled for boats tho. Energy conversion rate would make your boat stove higher efficiency than a full size coal plant. 

 

You'd get on well with our very own Tash and Bex here, with ideas like that!

 

See this thread for example:

 

 

 

[Col_T]

9 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

No, I get 100% SoC by about 7am when the sun shines. When it's slashing with rain in July it can take till nearly 8.00am.

 Might that be because your batteries have lost over 50% of badged capacity by any chance?

[dmr]

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

I understand that but i don't think i would personally. I do have an epic idea for on-board power using coal that i may keep armchair engineering. If you made a coal syngas gassifier and integrated it with a solid oxide fuel cell you could get coal power and heat. Technology exists its not scaled for boats tho. Energy conversion rate would make your boat stove higher efficiency than a full size coal plant. 

I don't think developing anything that runs off coal is a good long term investment.

 

.................Dave

[MtB]

18 minutes ago, Col_T said:

 Might that be because your batteries have lost over 50% of badged capacity by any chance?

 

No. its because the solar output replaces what I used the day before in real time as I used it, until nightfall when the trivial bit of leccy I use in the dark gets replaced as soon as it gets light.

 

I guess you don't have solar panels in any quantity or you would know this is what they do.

 

 

 

 

[cksantos85]

59 minutes ago, dmr said:

I don't think developing anything that runs off coal is a good long term investment.

 

.................Dave

Coal is easily avail and cheap no (i was trying to do as the romans do)? Propane or diesel is possible with a sterling engine. 

[MtB]

24 minutes ago, cksantos85 said:

Propane or diesel is possible with a sterling engine. 

 

Now this is the sort of throw away comment that damages your credibility. Which Sterling engine, commercially available for a sensible price, would you recommend please? I don't think there is one. 

[Graham Davis]

13 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

Your mixing my two statements as if they are connected. I am poor communicator. I understand the process for both. 

Then perhaps you need to explain why cassette toilet systems need so much power, because I can assure you that the ones I use need none?

 

Frankly I suggest that you save up some/lots of money, buy a plane ticket, come to the UK and hire a boat for a month and experience exactly what the canals and canal boats are, why they are like that, and then start to reconsider some of the fanciful ideas that you have suggested. Perhaps then more people will take you seriously.

[Ray T]

13 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

I am slowly coming to the realization that is the best course of action. The only downside is that ex hire boats are pricey. I was thinking about buying a dump and working on it before family shows up. Its amazing how cheap some boats are and i love projects. I built my boat in hawaii from a bare old hull. Yes i understand they need more work but to be honest i cant see much diff from a 5k boat and a 15k boat. IF i go up to 25k or 40k i can have what i want. 

Double any original cost estimate and possible triple your time scale to refit.

Oh, don't use a spirit level on a English Narrowboat.

[Tony Brooks]

Also don't underestimate the difficulty in working with 8ft x 4ft boards or anything on a typical narrowboat, especially if you are living no it and storing materials on it at the same time. You can't just tie up to the towpath indefinitely so unless you have a mooring you will have to move on at most every two weeks and often less.

 

Cheap boats are cheap for a reason and all to often it is because they are a very short time away from becoming multi-point porous or are of composite construction and leay rain water in like sieves. Be very wary.

[Col_T]

3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

No. its because the solar output replaces what I used the day before in real time as I used it, until nightfall when the trivial bit of leccy I use in the dark gets replaced as soon as it gets light.

 

I guess you don't have solar panels in any quantity or you would know this is what they do.

 

 

 

 

Fair cop, MtB, we only have 360W of solar fitted so not many. That said, I'm sure I remember a post in which you said your Trojanoids had lost about half their capacity - something else I must have imagined!?

[MtB]

58 minutes ago, Col_T said:

Fair cop, MtB, we only have 360W of solar fitted so not many. That said, I'm sure I remember a post in which you said your Trojanoids had lost about half their capacity - something else I must have imagined!?

 

No you're quite right, but they seem to have reached a floor and in winter, letting them drop to a really low SoC doesn't seem to make them get any worse. 

[cuthound]

5 hours ago, Col_T said:

 Might that be because your batteries have lost over 50% of badged capacity by any chance?

 

You can generate syngas from a gasifier and woodchip. I managed two commercial projects with them.

 

However the gasifiers I installed ran at over 1000°C and needed large electric fans to blow air into them, so it might be a tad warm in any narrow boat fitted with one!

 

The gas produced was fed into Sterling engines to provide power and hot water but ultimately the projects were commercially unsuccessful due to the unreliability of the Stirling engines.

[Chewbacka]

28 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

You can generate syngas from a gasifier and woodchip. I managed two commercial projects with them.

 

However the gasifiers I installed ran at over 1000°C and needed large electric fans to blow air into them, so it might be a tad warm in any narrow boat fitted with one!

 

The gas produced was fed into Sterling engines to provide power and hot water but ultimately the projects were commercially unsuccessful due to the unreliability of the Stirling engines.

So to heat my narrowboat I will need a butty to carry the gasifiers, another boat to house the generator that burns the gas to power the fans and a fleet of boats carrying wood chips to  keep the system fed.

 

 

[cuthound]

5 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

So to heat my narrowboat I will need a butty to carry the gasifiers, another boat to house the generator that burns the gas to power the fans and a fleet of boats carrying wood chips to  keep the system fed.

 

 

 

Yup, it's not easy being innovative and green. ?

[rusty69]

15 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Yup, it's not easy being innovative and green. ?

That may be so, but it's important we Kermit to these things.