Newb Technical Questions (narrowboat spaceships)

[cksantos85]

EDIT: perhaps due to the shear amount of questions feel free to focus on one question instead of dismissing the entire list. 

 

So I posted a silly questions post last night. Today i have some more serious technical questions as follows below. 

 

1. Why are narrow boats not designed to be bidirectional so that winding holes are not necessary. Either engines at both sides or directional thruster jets with an impeller(think jetski with more thrust vectoring.) or even Voith Schneider propellers(VSP) or perhaps just mount the entire boat with a dozen bow thrusters all over. Joy stick controls even. 

 

2. Why don't narrow-boaters use peltier modules or freepiston sterling generators on their stoves and engines to create power from waste heat. 

 

3. Why dont pump out toilet users have aerobic membrane filters with UV treatment. This would allow the discharge of most the liquids of black water and grey water together into canal cleaner than the canal is. Pump outs would occur 10x less often. Aerobic treatment removes a huge percentage of fecal mass via methanogen bacteria. Membrane filter removes only clean water from tank. Can be uv filtered and disposed in canal as it would be near drinkable at that point. Pump out biannually like a septic tank

 

4. Why do the canals not have active or passive filtration via artificial wetlands or even waste water treatment technology? Water quality could be pristine. You could even require a small filter on each vessel so that its distributed. 

 

5. Do narrow boaters use dripless bearings? Why is everyone on youtube using grease packing? Dripless is so superior from a technical standpoint. 

 

6. Why is there so much wood and not drywall or even cement board on a boat walls. Wood rots, its ugly, lights on fire etc.

 

7. Why is no ones floor tiled with radiant heating? Seems like it could be part of ballast if designed properly. 

 

8. Why dosent the canal trust put more electrical sockets on the cut. I imagine that a for-profit could manage and grow the system with some kind of access cards and normal financing. I think you could have sockets on 20% of moorings within a few years just with leases from canal side houses and businesses. Could charge boaters 10x cost to buy power from utility and it would still be better than what most are paying/doing for power now. 

 

9. Why dosent the canal authority use suction dredges to clean the canals. I only see back hoes and such in videos. 

 

10. Why are people using outboards at all? Also why arent more people using them?

 

11. Why dont more people steer from the front or middle using hydraulic steering cables? Is there advantages to the old school steering rudder design? 

 

12. Would an electric trolling motor move a narrow boat? Why dont people have a trolling motor for short hops and silent maneuvering slowly. In addition the the main motor. 

 

13. Why dont people who own canalside land develop the relationhip with the canal better in terms of real estate development. Seems like many opportunities to turn the canals into a world treasure. 

 

14. How much does it cost to make a length of canal or a lock. Assuming volunteers and what not like river trust does. Im trying to figure out why their isent more of these systems being built around the world. Do they only exist because of cheap labor done by coal extraction long ago? What is the monetary value of the canal system in total or even sections. 

 

15. Why is there no connections into Scotland. Why dosent Scotland have canals. 

 

16. Is there a website with statistical data on canals. 

 

17 Why is there no visible micro hydro dams on the canal for power generation. Could power sections of the cut that are remote. See question 8. 

 

18 Are the canals that bad water quality? How does it vary from place to place. Does anyone test water quality. What are common poisons, lead, oil? Why are the clean areas clean and dirty areas dirty. What could be changed in the dirty areas to make them cleaner. 

 

19. Can you filter canal water enough to drink it or tank it? Reverse osmosis, and particulate filters come to mind. Also atmospheric water generators as everyone seems to get condensation a lot from my readings. 

 

20. Does anyone tank rain water?

 

21. Do you drink your tap water on the cut. 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by cksantos85

[MtB]

16 minutes ago, cksantos85 said:

So I posted a silly questions post last night. Today i have some more serious technical questions. 

 

And they are????

 

 

[cksantos85]

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

And they are????

 

 

Awww common. lol this is me being serious lol. No one else on this planet could answer these. 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, cksantos85 said:

Awww common. lol this is me being serious lol. No one else on this planet could answer these. 

 

Off board opinion is you are just asking stupid questions that you could answer for yourself with a moment's thought, as a wind-up.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Mike the Boilerman
Speeling!

[cksantos85]

7 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Off board opinion is you are just asking stupid questions that you could answer for yourself with a moment's thought, as a wind-up.

 

 

Definitely not. Did you read them? Keep in mind i put this in the new boater part of forum. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by cksantos85

[MtB]

Just now, cksantos85 said:

Definitely not. Did you read them?

 

Yes.

 

 

[cksantos85]

Its possible means that you know much more than I do about narrowboats and UK canals then. Rather than i could answer these questions easily you may just be smarter than me. I have been researching narrow boats for about 6 months. I still cant answer these from the other side of the earth. The people who have narrowboat youtubes are not technical. I want to build a narrowboat from a project hull. 50% of these questions are things i want to do on my narrowboat but perhaps their is good reasons why not. So far my questions on this forum have gotten me more details than hours of youtubes. Many thanks for your help in advance. 

 

I could summarize as :

1. What are the long term aspirations of the river and canal trust. Whats the long term vision or goal to make the canals better?  Answer - nothing its a bureaucratic mess and we are all lucky if they widen and fix the absolute worst canals and locks from being unusable.  

 

2. Why dont narrowboats use more modern techology? answer - cost everyone on a narrow boat is broke. 

 

These answers are my answers and they suck. So i hope someone would have better ones. Thus me listing my musings in detail. Do you have any interest in even one of the questions? Or all of them are retarded?

 

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by cksantos85

[Mac of Cygnet]

I read them too, but I'm not answering them, because they're a mixture of the blindingly obvious, answerable by your own research, and just silly.  There are a few which have been asked and answered previously in these forums and canalside by boaters to passers-by.  There are also too many at once for people to be bothered.

 

Welcome to the forums, and when you have done a bit of research on UK canals and boating, one or two questions at a time may be better received.

 

Cheers

 

Mac

 

 

 

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, cksantos85 said:

Its possible means that you know much more than I do about narrowboats and UK canals then. Rather than i could answer these questions easily you may just be smarter than me. I have been researching narrow boats for about 6 months. I still cant answer these from the other side of the earth. The people who have narrowboat youtubes are not technical. I want to build a narrowboat from a project hull. 50% of these questions are things i want to do on my narrowboat but perhaps their is good reasons why not. So far my questions on this forum have gotten me more details than hours of youtubes. Many thanks for your help in advance. 

 

 

The thing you are not grasping from your six months of research is narrow boats and canals are basic, agricultural standard engineering. Everything needs to be simple so it csn be easily understood at a glance and fixed when it goes wrong. Surprises help no-one. Doing things the same way as everyone else pays massive dividends. Yes there are dripless stern tubes but when they fail (and the do), no-one has spares on the shelf unlike conventional rope-packed glands. No-one has micro hydro generators by each lock because the canals are full of mud and rubbish and they would fail within minutes. Well there is one, and I've never seen it working. Boats are not double-ended with complicated reverseable propulsion pods because they need to be SIMPLE, and the canal is only 2ft deep. And so on.....

[cksantos85]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The thing you are not grasping from your six months of research is narrow boats and canals are basic, agricultural standard engineering. Everything needs to be simple so it csn be easily understood at a glance and fixed when it goes wrong. Surprises help no-one. Doing things the same way as everyone else pays massive dividends. Yes there are dripless stern tubes but when they fail (and the do), no-one has spares on the shelf unlike conventional rope-packed glands. No-one has micro hydro generators by each lock because the canals are full of mud and rubbish and they would fail within minutes. Well there is one, and I've never seen it working. Boats are not double-ended with complicated reverseable propulsion pods because they need to be SIMPLE, and the canal is only 2ft deep. And so on.....

hey you are the man. love those answers, i could never have gotten that anywhere else. and answers so many of the questions. Its like owning a model t vs some custom car in 1900. 

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by cksantos85

[MtB]

Whats a maholo? 

 

I want one!!!!

 

[cksantos85]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Whats a maholo? 

 

I want one!!!!

 

haha i edited it out realized you had no idea what i was talking about. 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=hmahalo 

 

its an expression of deep gratitude in hawaiian. and i just gave you a bunch lol

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, cksantos85 said:

haha i edited it out realized you had no idea what i was talking about. 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=hmahalo 

 

its an expression of deep gratitude in hawaiian. and i just gave you a bunch lol

 

Lol fanx!!!

 

[rusty69]

7 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

I want to build a narrowboat from a project hull. 50% of these questions are things i want to do on my narrowboat but perhaps their is good reasons why not. So far my questions on this forum have gotten me more details than hours of youtubes. Many thanks for your help in advance. 

My dalas worth. Don't do it. Don't try to reinvent the wheel. Buy a boat, yes, travel the system, yes, enjoy the country, yes. Put ten years of your life into building you're own quirky boat no. Have fun on the rivers /canals of the UK, then move onto Llama trekking in the himalaya, or fruit picking in new Zealand,or surf instructor in Hawaii.

 

BTW, there are canals in Scotland.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

8. Why dosent the canal trust put more electrical sockets on the cut. I imagine that a for-profit could manage and grow the system with some kind of access cards and normal financing. I think you could have sockets on 20% of moorings within a few years just with leases from canal side houses and businesses. Could charge boaters 10x cost to buy power from utility and it would still be better than what most are paying/doing for power now. 

Ok - just one answer.

 

Because it is the law in the UK that resellers of electricity (caravan / RV parks, marinas etc) CANNOT sell electricity at a higher price than they pay the utility company.

 

From the Government website

 

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/ofgem-publications/74486/11782-resaleupdateoct05pdf

[rusty69]

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

10. Why are people using outboards at all? Also why arent more people using them?

Oh, if we are doing serious answers, I'll take no 10.

 

Outboards are significantly less expensive than diesel engines, and are typically better suited to smallish GRP/wooden cruiser type boats due to their lower weight and smaller physical size. Their cooling water is usually obtained directly from the weedy canal, so can be prone to blocking.They can be transom hung which saves on space in the boat, but are more exposed, thus more likely to be damaged in locks unless protected. 

 

An outboard would propel a small narrowboat,but would not charge a battery as well as an alternator on a diesel engine. 

 

Most outboards run on petrol, which is generally more difficult to obtain on the canals than red diesel. 

 

Diesel tanks on narrowboats tend to have a larger capacity and less prone to spillage when filling from a canalside vendor. 

Edited October 5, 2019 by rusty69

[cksantos85]

Sounds like a lot of the design elements I was questioning are durability/usability issues specific to locks canals and their infrastructure thanks for the response. Never though about clogging intake of outboard. Roast an impeller real quick. 

1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

My dalas worth. Don't do it. Don't try to reinvent the wheel. Buy a boat, yes, travel the system, yes, enjoy the country, yes. Put ten years of your life into building you're own quirky boat no. Have fun on the rivers /canals of the UK, then move onto Llama trekking in the himalaya, or fruit picking in new Zealand,or surf instructor in Hawaii.

 

BTW, there are canals in Scotland.

Point taken. Maybe ill stick to some smaller mods to a functioning boat. I was leaning towards building a canal spaceship tho. Then u said 10 years and i was like UM YA and remembered all my other projects. 

 

Also on the Scotland comment theirs only 1 correct? and its no where near the nothern london system. and irelands system is a pipe dream away from england on a narrowboat so my dreams of UK wide boating are dashed none the less. 

Edited October 5, 2019 by cksantos85

[Bee]

A few years ago BWB introduced hydraulic paddle gear, standard on canals all over Europe and probably the rest of the world. From the passions that raised you would have thought they were hell bent on destroying the system.

[cksantos85]

44 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Ok - just one answer.

 

Because it is the law in the UK that resellers of electricity (caravan / RV parks, marinas etc) CANNOT sell electricity at a higher price than they pay the utility company.

 

From the Government website

 

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/ofgem-publications/74486/11782-resaleupdateoct05pdf

Fascinating. Theoretically they could add electric but my pyramid scheme is out for funding mechanisms so were back to volunteers and grants. Prob more pressing issues. Thanks for the reply. 

[cksantos85]

4 minutes ago, Bee said:

A few years ago BWB introduced hydraulic paddle gear, standard on canals all over Europe and probably the rest of the world. From the passions that raised you would have thought they were hell bent on destroying the system.

I did a search for hydraulic paddle gear and got nothing, What exactly are you refering too. 

[Jerra]

3. Why dont pump out toilet users have aerobic membrane filters with UV treatment. This would allow the discharge of most the liquids of black water and grey water together into canal cleaner than the canal is.

 

You do realise that pump out toilets don't empty into the canal don't you?

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, cksantos85 said:

I did a search for hydraulic paddle gear and got nothing, What exactly are you refering too. 

Currently on (the majority of) locks the paddles (to let the water in/out) are wound up/down by a handle (lock key) / windlass) on the end of a shaft, the shaft has a toothed cog which engages with a toothed cog on the paddle, winding lifts / drops the paddle.

 

Hydraulic ones are simply that - replace all the paddle gear with a hydraulic system.

 

 

 

[rusty69]

34 minutes ago, cksantos85 said:

Also on the Scotland comment theirs only 1 correct? and its no where near the nothern london system. and irelands system is a pipe dream away from england on a narrowboat so my dreams of UK wide boating are dashed none the less. 

No, there are 5 canals in Scotland:-

1.Union Canal

2.Caledonian Canal

3.Crinan canal

4.Forth and Clyde canal

5.Monkland canal(you may need a spaceship for this one)

 

It's elementary stuff.

https://www.scottishcanals.co.uk/

 

No where near is irrelevant if you have a canal spaceship.

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by rusty69

[Tony Brooks]

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

EDIT: perhaps due to the shear amount of questions feel free to focus on one question instead of dismissing the entire list. 

 

So I posted a silly questions post last night. Today i have some more serious technical questions as follows below. 

 

1. Why are narrow boats not designed to be bidirectional so that winding holes are not necessary. Either engines at both sides or directional thruster jets with an impeller(think jetski with more thrust vectoring.) or even Voith Schneider propellers(VSP) or perhaps just mount the entire boat with a dozen bow thrusters all over. Joy stick controls even. 

Look up the narrowboat Whitfield to see wha happens when yo deviate from the proven. The owners pay loads of money and sold within a year or so.

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

2. Why don't narrow-boaters use peltier modules or freepiston sterling generators on their stoves and engines to create power from waste heat. 

Discussed only a few days ago on here. Very low efficiency and the amount of electricity generated would be insignificant compared with the demand.

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

3. Why dont pump out toilet users have aerobic membrane filters with UV treatment. This would allow the discharge of most the liquids of black water and grey water together into canal cleaner than the canal is. Pump outs would occur 10x less often. Aerobic treatment removes a huge percentage of fecal mass via methanogen bacteria. Membrane filter removes only clean water from tank. Can be uv filtered and disposed in canal as it would be near drinkable at that point. Pump out biannually like a septic tank

The biggest problem on boats is provision of sufficient electricity so anything "new" that demands it is a non-starter in most cases. Anyway Methane is a greenhouse gas and that should be discouraged. A number of boaters are trying to run aerobic partial treatment systems that do not produce (much) methane. Anyway I nsuspect such system need very regular maintenance like back flushing etc.

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

4. Why do the canals not have active or passive filtration via artificial wetlands or even waste water treatment technology? Water quality could be pristine. You could even require a small filter on each vessel so that its distributed. 

And who is going to pay for that? You don't need pristine water and even if you could get it you would still have rat urine etc. to worry about.

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

5. Do narrow boaters use dripless bearings? Why is everyone on youtube using grease packing? Dripless is so superior from a technical standpoint. 

Some do. I disagree with your technical conclusion. When packless glands start to leak they are far more difficult to bodge than packed glands so you can get to help. Anyway in the UK packless glands tend to be coupled with rubber Cutless bearings that may not be such a bright idea when boating through mud slurry.

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

6. Why is there so much wood and not drywall or even cement board on a boat walls. Wood rots, its ugly, lights on fire etc.

Ever looked at how well dry wall boards fare when kept damp? Wood only rots if not treated and kept reasonably dry. Not ugly in many peoples eyes when properly finished including mine. Fire board is used where there is a danger of ignition but is usually covered with a noncvombustible decorative finish. Maybe you would do away with PVC electrical cables because it can catch fire - and the plastic/rubber parts associated with the engine etc.

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

7. Why is no ones floor tiled with radiant heating? Seems like it could be part of ballast if designed properly. 

Some do fit underfloor heating but the underfloor space is very small height wise. Anyway if you are using tiles it almost certainly uses electricity and as a very knowledgable chap once said - only an idiot woudl try to use electricity to produce heat on a boat.

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

8. Why dosent the canal trust put more electrical sockets on the cut. I imagine that a for-profit could manage and grow the system with some kind of access cards and normal financing. I think you could have sockets on 20% of moorings within a few years just with leases from canal side houses and businesses. Could charge boaters 10x cost to buy power from utility and it would still be better than what most are paying/doing for power now. 

Answered

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

9. Why dosent the canal authority use suction dredges to clean the canals. I only see back hoes and such in videos. 

Because they produce loads of runny waste that is deemed "hazardous waste" in the UK so is very expensive to deal with.

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

10. Why are people using outboards at all? Also why arent more people using them?

Answered

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

11. Why dont more people steer from the front or middle using hydraulic steering cables? Is there advantages to the old school steering rudder design? 

Some do but you loose most of the feel/feed back and it is hard to steer a long boat from the front - see Whitfield. Yes, you can feel and see what is going on in confined canals. You can also feel when the prop fouls.

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

12. Would an electric trolling motor move a narrow boat? Why dont people have a trolling motor for short hops and silent maneuvering slowly. In addition the the main motor. 

Probably but try stopping a 14 ton boat with a low HP motor. Back to the shortage of eletricity

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

13. Why dont people who own canalside land develop the relationhip with the canal better in terms of real estate development. Seems like many opportunities to turn the canals into a world treasure. 

No idea but have you seen the number of so called traveler boats that most sensible people would not want moored near their properties burning very smokey stove fuel?

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

14. How much does it cost to make a length of canal or a lock. Assuming volunteers and what not like river trust does. Im trying to figure out why their isent more of these systems being built around the world. Do they only exist because of cheap labor done by coal extraction long ago? What is the monetary value of the canal system in total or even sections. 

No idea bout many tens of thousands or pounds, maybe hundreds of thousands of pounds depending upon the structure, access and ground. It seems the UK  governemnt thinks the value is very little and considers canals and their infrastructure a drain on the Treasury.

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

15. Why is there no connections into Scotland. Why dosent Scotland have canals. 

It does, it has three/four. Look on a decent map and also take note of the topography.

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

16. Is there a website with statistical data on canals. 

Depends upon what you mean

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

17 Why is there no visible micro hydro dams on the canal for power generation. Could power sections of the cut that are remote. See question 8. 

Water is, in the main, a very precious commodity so can not be spared to run such items 24/7. In all probability the amount generated woudl be less than the maintenance costs. They are used on several river locations where water is readily available.

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

 

18 Are the canals that bad water quality? How does it vary from place to place. Does anyone test water quality. What are common poisons, lead, oil? Why are the clean areas clean and dirty areas dirty. What could be changed in the dirty areas to make them cleaner. 

Some are fairly clean apart from mud in suspension and some may still be heavily polluted from past industry, especially after dredging.Look up anal side industries of teh past and you will get an idea of probable pollutants.

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

19. Can you filter canal water enough to drink it or tank it? Reverse osmosis, and particulate filters come to mind. Also atmospheric water generators as everyone seems to get condensation a lot from my readings. 

At least one filter company says you can but I am not convinced because of the industrial pollutants present in some areas. Back to the need for electricity again. Not a lot of condensation in summer.

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

20. Does anyone tank rain water?

I am sure some hippy boats do but the number of water points makes it totally unnecessary. You will pass several most days and NB tanks hold sebveral days worth of water.

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

21. Do you drink your tap water on the cut. 

If you mean tank water then yes and most probably do not even filter it. In the UK the tap water contains sufficient residual chlorine to render it safe in tanks fo a reasonable time.

8 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

 

 

[rusty69]

....A greenie for you sir for answering nearly ALL the questions.