Survey! Council trying to close Saltford Meadow mooring site

[Tim Lewis]

https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/boaters-set-allowed-back-river-5613692

[Dave123]

Good news that common sense and due process have prevailed over pitch fork wielding nimby villagers😂😁👍

[Murflynn]

AFAIK the issue isn't just about whether boats can moor there, it's about whether they can set up a semi-permanent camp, using all the available bank-side, and preventing others from stopping for an hour or a day or two.

[Mike Todd]

Another example of a media item that shows little understanding of the complex legal situation:

 

The council believes the Canal and River Trust has issued a significant number of continuous cruising licences despite the lack of facilities, increasing pressure on the Kennet and Avon Canal and the River Avon.

 

Firstly, CaRT do not issue continuous cruising licences  but simply allow some licensees to state that they have no home mooring and that they will CC.

 

Secondly, if they genuinely were cc licences then the licensee could (should?) go almost anywhere that their boat will fit and not be restricted o one area. Indeed, the 'no home mooring' licensee does not have to state in advance where they will be going. 

 

Thirdly, as I understand it, the pressure on the K&A (inc River Avon) is more from non-CC boaters who stay put without a designated mooring, than from those who do CC - at least in the spirit of the original; provisions. (in effect unlicensed residential moorers)

 

Fourthly, CaRT are not a housing authority and do not have an obligation (nor the resources) to provide 'facilities' for those who wish to use the network in ways not permitted by their licences.

 

It seems to be widely believed that the 'pressure' on the canals stems from the on-going housing situation (not really a crisis since its seems almost irradicable) which is most definitely in the hands of the government and local authority. Perhaps the councillor quoted could be challenged to state what his council are doing to provide housing for those on minimum wages who cannot provide homes for themselves in bricks and mortar. In particular ask him how long is his council's housing waiting list? Is it getting any shorter?

 

I am no special advocate for unlicensed residential boaters but I do think that it is too easy for councils and governments to disguise their permanent failure to resolve the basic housing problem by allowing groups such as boaters to be highlighted as causing the 'problem' (what ever that problem might be).

[Alan de Enfield]

41 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Firstly, CaRT do not issue continuous cruising licences  

 

Yet.

 

But their new T&Cs look as if they do intend to split the licences and add a new CC licence category  - otherwise why split out of the standard licence ?

They could simply have said there are two routes to a 'Pleasure Boat Licence', with, or without a home mooring etc etc ...........

 

 

Cut and paste from the new T&Cs issuing CC licences.

 

Types of Licences The following types of licence can be applied for.

 

These Conditions (including any Schedules) below apply to these options:

 

• A Pleasure Boat Licence (“standard boat licence”) for either 3, 6 or 12 months is required to navigate on Our Canals & Rivers. You will need a home mooring for Your boat for this licence type.

 

• A Rivers Only Licence is valid for ‘River Waterways’. These are defined in Schedule 1 of the British Waterways Act 1971, as amended. A Rivers Only Licence constitutes a “pleasure boat certificate” for the purposes of the Act.

 

• A Continuous Cruising licence does not need Your boat to have a home mooring. This licence is either for 6 or 12 months and You’ll have to follow Our ‘Guidance for Boaters Without a Home Mooring’

 

• A Gold Licence, allows You to travel on Our Waterways and Environment Agency (EA) navigations in England & Wales. It is available for 12 months only, beginning on 1st January.

 

• Short Term licences for periods of 1 month or less are for boats visiting Our Waterways for short periods. They are not available to Continuous Cruisers, boats floating in marinas or on moorings connected to Trust Waterways. Further details about short term licences, can be found at https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/buy-your-boat-licence/short-termvisitor-licences

 

• Houseboat Certificates are only issued for boats where the Houseboat Certificate and the mooring agreement run at the same time and have the same expiry date. Houseboat means a boat not mainly used for navigation and which has planning permission for the site where it is moored, if needed

Edited July 7, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Mike Todd]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Yet.

 

But their new T&Cs look as if they do intend to split the licences and add a new CC licence category  - otherwise why split out of the standard licence ?

They could simply have said there are two routes to a 'Pleasure Boat Licence', with, or without a home mooring etc etc ...........

 

 

Cut and paste from the new T&Cs issuing CC licences.

 

Types of Licences The following types of licence can be applied for.

 

These Conditions (including any Schedules) below apply to these options:

 

• A Pleasure Boat Licence (“standard boat licence”) for either 3, 6 or 12 months is required to navigate on Our Canals & Rivers. You will need a home mooring for Your boat for this licence type.

 

• A Rivers Only Licence is valid for ‘River Waterways’. These are defined in Schedule 1 of the British Waterways Act 1971, as amended. A Rivers Only Licence constitutes a “pleasure boat certificate” for the purposes of the Act.

 

• A Continuous Cruising licence does not need Your boat to have a home mooring. This licence is either for 6 or 12 months and You’ll have to follow Our ‘Guidance for Boaters Without a Home Mooring’

 

• A Gold Licence, allows You to travel on Our Waterways and Environment Agency (EA) navigations in England & Wales. It is available for 12 months only, beginning on 1st January.

 

• Short Term licences for periods of 1 month or less are for boats visiting Our Waterways for short periods. They are not available to Continuous Cruisers, boats floating in marinas or on moorings connected to Trust Waterways. Further details about short term licences, can be found at https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/buy-your-boat-licence/short-termvisitor-licences

 

• Houseboat Certificates are only issued for boats where the Houseboat Certificate and the mooring agreement run at the same time and have the same expiry date. Houseboat means a boat not mainly used for navigation and which has planning permission for the site where it is moored, if needed

If indeed that is really a new licence category then it only makes my description stronger!

[Steilsteven]

As there is a PRN on the Avon then there is a right to moor for a reasonable time.

On CRT waterways a reasonable time under the 1995 Act is defined as fourteen days.

 

Keith

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Steilsteven said:

As there is a PRN on the Avon then there is a right to moor for a reasonable time.

On CRT waterways a reasonable time under the 1995 Act is defined as fourteen days.

 

Keith

 

Isn't a 'reasonable time' classed by the EA (on the Thames) as overnight / 24 hours ?

[David Mack]

15 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

As there is a PRN on the Avon then there is a right to moor for a reasonable time.

 

The public right of navigation is just that - a right to move one's boat along the river, and over the river bed which belongs to the riparian landowner. There is no right whatsoever to moor to land fronting the river (or to anchor within the water area away from the bank) without the consent of the landowner.

[Iain_S]

12 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Another example of a media item that shows little understanding of the complex legal situation:

 

The council believes the Canal and River Trust has issued a significant number of continuous cruising licences despite the lack of facilities, increasing pressure on the Kennet and Avon Canal and the River Avon.

 

Firstly, CaRT do not issue continuous cruising licences  but simply allow some licensees to state that they have no home mooring and that they will CC.

 

Secondly, if they genuinely were cc licences then the licensee could (should?) go almost anywhere that their boat will fit and not be restricted o one area. Indeed, the 'no home mooring' licensee does not have to state in advance where they will be going. 

 

Thirdly, as I understand it, the pressure on the K&A (inc River Avon) is more from non-CC boaters who stay put without a designated mooring, than from those who do CC - at least in the spirit of the original; provisions. (in effect unlicensed residential moorers)

 

Fourthly, CaRT are not a housing authority and do not have an obligation (nor the resources) to provide 'facilities' for those who wish to use the network in ways not permitted by their licences.

 

It seems to be widely believed that the 'pressure' on the canals stems from the on-going housing situation (not really a crisis since its seems almost irradicable) which is most definitely in the hands of the government and local authority. Perhaps the councillor quoted could be challenged to state what his council are doing to provide housing for those on minimum wages who cannot provide homes for themselves in bricks and mortar. In particular ask him how long is his council's housing waiting list? Is it getting any shorter?

 

I am no special advocate for unlicensed residential boaters but I do think that it is too easy for councils and governments to disguise their permanent failure to resolve the basic housing problem by allowing groups such as boaters to be highlighted as causing the 'problem' (what ever that problem might be).

Fifthly, CaRT cannot use lack of facilities as grounds for refusing to issue a licence or registration certificate

[Steilsteven]

On 07/07/2021 at 16:23, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Isn't a 'reasonable time' classed by the EA (on the Thames) as overnight / 24 hours ?

It's what they ''interpret'' it to be but case law shows that their interpretation is merely conjecture.

As EA have no jurisdiction on the Avon what they think is of no consequence. 

 

Keith  

On 07/07/2021 at 16:39, David Mack said:

 

The public right of navigation is just that - a right to move one's boat along the river, and over the river bed which belongs to the riparian landowner. There is no right whatsoever to moor to land fronting the river (or to anchor within the water area away from the bank) without the consent of the landowner.

Totally wrong I'm afraid.

 

Keith

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

 

As EA have no jurisdiction on the Avon what they think is of no consequence. 

 

You totally misunderstand.

 

A comment was made that (as an example) C&RT considered that 14 days was a reasonable time, I said that the EA considered 24 hours to be a reasonable time.

 

At no point was any suggestion made that either had any authority over the AVON, the examples were simply provided as examples of the disparity between what other authorities considered 'reasonable'.