Lithiums only beat LA if you don't have enough solar

[Dr Bob]

10 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Teslarati or summat like that

Thanks Peter. Great for finding out where all the superchargers are in Florida.

Being a lazy sod, I should have googled it. Found a UK forum now.

[peterboat]

51 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

It would appear thst whilst the bstteries may last a million miles, the body won't. ?

 

https://insideevs.com/news/372613/tesla-model-3-new-kind-rust-problem/

I have been looking at Model S they have a composite body and alloy chassis better by design

[cuthound]

29 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I have been looking at Model S they have a composite body and alloy chassis better by design

 

Really?

 

 

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Really?

 

 

 

 

Jeez how does that bloke manage to be so mind-numbingly DULL...?

 

Its like listening to a vintage engine enthusiast!!

 

 

 

 

 

[peterboat]

19 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Really?

 

 

Google it it's 98% aluminium it will be bolts that are rusted 

[jetzi]

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

Right Ivan, I have 2 Midnite classic 200s one is for leisure [24 volts] and one is for drive [72 volts] they are made in the USA and are maybe the best money can buy! I can give you where to buy them easily but you will need to do it now as its in Spain. I have 3 strings of solar 4 panels in series, in each string 8 of the panels are 310 watts, the 4 are 300 watts. The larger panels are paralleled together and feed the drive controller or can be switched to either the immersion heater or to the domestic controller. All the panels can also be switched to the drive controller, its complicated but very easy in the flesh.

Because my leisure system is 24 volts I can have more effective solar onto it

look at this chart

 

Classic Sizing Tool. - MidNite Solar

 

www.midnitesolar.com › sizingTool

 

Its very useful and will show you the problems of 12 volt systems and how you can normally only use 1100 ish watts of your 1500 watt solar system, some solar controllers are even less many are 720 watts!

If you have any more questions please ask

 

When you must say I must buy now, do you mean if I wanted them to arrive by April 2020? A quick look says they output are around the same price as the 100A Victron, are they of better quality?

I did for a second consider the idea of having a larger than 12V system (to save money on the solar controller) but as all of my stuff is 12V it didn't make sense to me to have to step down everywhere. Of course, I don't have an electric drive and never will in this boat, it's a wonderful idea for a new build but it's unlikely I'll ever have that kind of money. So apart from (potentially) an immersion heater I only need 12V and 240V for washing.

 

You answered my question though - your panels are switched before the controller to feed the immersion heater at whatever voltage they are naturally coming out at.

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

 

When you must say I must buy now, do you mean if I wanted them to arrive by April 2020? A quick look says they output are around the same price as the 100A Victron, are they of better quality?

I did for a second consider the idea of having a larger than 12V system (to save money on the solar controller) but as all of my stuff is 12V it didn't make sense to me to have to step down everywhere. Of course, I don't have an electric drive and never will in this boat, it's a wonderful idea for a new build but it's unlikely I'll ever have that kind of money. So apart from (potentially) an immersion heater I only need 12V and 240V for washing.

 

You answered my question though - your panels are switched before the controller to feed the immersion heater at whatever voltage they are naturally coming out at.

We are leaving the EU so if you order it now it will be easier and cheaper, and yes they are the best my first one is a good few years old, no issues with it, also their is a good repair system for them. Read about how the company started and why they really are the best 

[Dr Bob]

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

We are leaving the EU so if you.....

......Oh no we're not.

[cuthound]

13 hours ago, peterboat said:

Google it it's 98% aluminium it will be bolts that are rusted 

 

Thanks for the tip.

 

Seems Teslas are subject to galvanic corrosion and have had to recall tne Model 3's because of corroded steering components.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/7kld7f/discussion_galvanic_bimetalic_corrosion_in_tesla/

 

https://www.inc.com/peter-economy/tesla-recalls-123000-cars-due-to-excessive-corrosion-amid-production-problems-for-model-3.html

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

Thanks for the tip.

 

Seems Teslas are subject to galvanic corrosion and have had to recall tne Model 3's because of corroded steering components.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/7kld7f/discussion_galvanic_bimetalic_corrosion_in_tesla/

 

https://www.inc.com/peter-economy/tesla-recalls-123000-cars-due-to-excessive-corrosion-amid-production-problems-for-model-3.html

My Honda insight gen 1 is aluminium with plastic wings, none of the bolts have rusted on it (front end has been removed after motor bike hit me) quality bolts and copper slip is the cure

[cuthound]

3 hours ago, peterboat said:

My Honda insight gen 1 is aluminium with plastic wings, none of the bolts have rusted on it (front end has been removed after motor bike hit me) quality bolts and copper slip is the cure

 

Agreed, most manufacturers of aluminium cars have sorted the corrosion problems.

 

Although  hear from my neighbour who works for a classic car restoration firm that the last of the Jag XJ6's used aluminium bodies and are getting galvanic corrosion between the aluminium panels and galvanised steel rivets that hold the panels together. Apparently the zinc coating on the rivets begins to fail which then causes galvanic corrosion of the panels.

[WotEver]

54 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Although  hear from my neighbour who works for a classic car restoration firm that the last of the Jag XJ6's used aluminium bodies and are getting galvanic corrosion between the aluminium panels and galvanised steel rivets that hold the panels together. Apparently the zinc coating on the rivets begins to fail which then causes galvanic corrosion of the panels.

JLR are still not completely on top of this. Some F-Types are suffering from galvanic corrosion, as are some later XKRs. 

[Col_T]

On 29/09/2019 at 23:10, ivan&alice said:

On 29/09/2019 at 22:43, Dr Bob said:

I spend far less time managing my Li's than I used to spend looking at my LA's. A lot less time.

Point 4 for Li's then - less time mucking about with batteries is a fair pro.

 

Perhaps not - we, like many others, have sealed, maintenance free batteries installed. The only faffing I do is a quick wipe over with a cloth, and a quick check that there is no corrosion around the terminals, when I'm winterising the boat. I don't have lithiums, obviously, but I would expect they would require some kind of annual check, even if only to check that connections are still tight?

 

If that is correct, then you may be back down to three plus points for lithiums.

 

FWIW - I have also pondered installing lithiums and come to the conclusion that, because we cruise for only six or seven months a year, they don't really offer enough positives to outweigh the cost.

[Dr Bob]

4 minutes ago, Col_T said:

 

Perhaps not - we, like many others, have sealed, maintenance free batteries installed. The only faffing I do is a quick wipe over with a cloth, and a quick check that there is no corrosion around the terminals, when I'm winterising the boat. I don't have lithiums, obviously, but I would expect they would require some kind of annual check, even if only to check that connections are still tight?

 

If that is correct, then you may be back down to three plus points for lithiums.

 

FWIW - I have also pondered installing lithiums and come to the conclusion that, because we cruise for only six or seven months a year, they don't really offer enough positives to outweigh the cost.

No, the faffing around I am talking about is the need to get back up to 100% a few times a week with LA's. This requires monitoring and action to make sure you get enough charge in. With Li's I glance at the meter twice per day to make sure I know I will be between 20 and 80%. Far less effort/looking/worry/planning (ie can I park under trees for 2 days cause it is going to be 90°F).

[Tom and Bex]

We've had our lithiums installed for just over a year now and best investment we've made. We've been living off grid on our last boat with 1kw solar and 4x t105 batteries for 2.5 years, and this boat with 500w solar and 5x cheapo sealed batteries for 18 months, and now 1 year with our lithiums and 500w solar. 

 

With 1kw solar and the t105s we were just about coping from April to September with solar, but still having to top up charge quite often, and running generator if using washing machine etc. With the cheapo batteries and 500w solar we'd decided it wasn't enough as weren't coping except on long sunny days. Batteries were also completely knackered after less than a year, but managed to struggle on for a second summer. 

 

The lithiums have been a complete transformation for us living off grid. 500w solar is coping very well, and even allows us run washing machine from solar. As others have said, these batteries just soak up what ever charge is available from solar. I believe charge efficiencies of 99-100% are common with lithiums (our bmv is set to 99% and seems to track charge well).

 

Yes they are more expensive, but the extra more than pays for itself in reduced recharge times. As mentioned above, they are available 2nd hand from various sources. When no longer suitable for  ev use they are still fine for our light duty use (I got mine as they dropped voltage slightly too much under very heavy load, 200A+ on 160AH cells). They also have very stable voltage profile, ours are nearly always between 13.3-13.8v regardless of load or charge rate. 

 

As to installation and BMS, yes it needs some planning, but not too hard to do, and new products coming out all the time. There's some very slight changes I'd consider if doing it again, but would not consider having a boat without them now. Also never even bother looking at the monitor for days at a time in the summer, they just sit there and work as they should with no monitoring or fussing!

[MoominPapa]

We have a similar system to Tom&Bex but with less solar and we're CCers rather than liveaboards on a fixed mooring, so rely more on engine charging and less on solar. I echo his statements entirely: just the ability to go weeks without fully charging the bank without knackering it is enough to make this worthwhile. It's a transformation.

 

MP.

 

[jetzi]

10 hours ago, Tom and Bex said:

We've had our lithiums installed for just over a year now and best investment we've made. We've been living off grid on our last boat with 1kw solar and 4x t105 batteries for 2.5 years, and this boat with 500w solar and 5x cheapo sealed batteries for 18 months, and now 1 year with our lithiums and 500w solar. 

 

With 1kw solar and the t105s we were just about coping from April to September with solar, but still having to top up charge quite often, and running generator if using washing machine etc. With the cheapo batteries and 500w solar we'd decided it wasn't enough as weren't coping except on long sunny days. Batteries were also completely knackered after less than a year, but managed to struggle on for a second summer.

 

Thanks @Tom and Bex and @MoominPapa for your insight - it's certainly very helpful to hear the testimony of the people who have them.

 

Had you increased your solar to 1.5kW or 2kW on your 4 t105s or 5 sealed batteries, instead of going lithium, how would your life be different than it is with Li's?

[MoominPapa]

3 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

 

Thanks @Tom and Bex and @MoominPapa for your insight - it's certainly very helpful to hear the testimony of the people who have them.

 

Had you increased your solar to 1.5kW or 2kW on your 4 t105s or 5 sealed batteries, instead of going lithium, how would your life be different than it is with Li's?

Apologies that this probably isn't a helpful reply, but a big difference if we had 1.5Kw of solar is that I wouldn't be able to walk on the roof when locking.  ~200W of stick-down panels suits us because they don't get in the way.

 

Your point is valid: if you have a large and reliable supply of power, then your power storage facility is less critical. If you have a shore-line, you don't need any batteries at all

 

MP

 

[MtB]

5 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

Had you increased your solar to 1.5kW or 2kW on your 4 t105s or 5 sealed batteries, instead of going lithium, how would your life be different than it is with Li's?

 

I'd suggest the winter period when the solar doesn't work and the lithiums mean vastly reduced engine running/charging time, gets shorter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dr Bob]

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'd suggest the winter period when the solar doesn't work and the lithiums mean vastly reduced engine running/charging time, gets shorter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its not just the winter though.

The last two days have been nice in the morning but pouring down with leaden skies by 3pm. We did 2 hours motoring Monday and 3 hrs Tuesday with around 140Ahr out overnight - on both nights before. So at the end of each run (around 2ish) we were 90% charged. There was not +ve charge from the panels after that (TV/sky dish on). Today Wednesday, we are parked up again by 2pm at again 90% full.

For Li's it is not an issue. YOU DONT HAVE TO GET TO 100%.

With LA's, on the 3rd day of not getting to 100% you would be needing to run the engine if no sun, so even early october you cant rely on solar.

 

.....having said all that, the sun has come out again this afternoon so I'll probably get up to 95% (and the tail current will kill the input from a 1500W solar array on an LA bank). Did I mention parking under trees?

 

 

[MtB]

30 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Did I mention parking under trees?

 

I'm not sure why parking anywhere in particular would make a difference. Surely it's where the boat is moored that counts, not where the car is...

[peterboat]

My batteries were fully charged by 1600 today, after the last few days of constant rain they were reading 12.9 volts, by 1600 they were 13,9 volts and in float so a great day for solar! At some points the meter was showing over 50 amps going in

[Tom and Bex]

15 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

Had you increased your solar to 1.5kW or 2kW on your 4 t105s or 5 sealed batteries, instead of going lithium, how would your life be different than it is with Li's?

I don't see what difference it would make really other than possible extend the "solar season" by a few weeks. Not even sure it would be by much though as we find there is a point where solar just drops off the edge of a cliff. 

 

Our current solar is more than enough with lithiums, which would indicate it's the lead acid technology that is throttling output rather than solar as such. 

 

At the end of the day it's up to individuals to make their own judgement on what system is best for them and their needs, and I'd never advise anyone to blindly install lithiums without reading up and understanding them first. It's very very difficult to forget everything you know and understand about lead acid batteries, how they work, and how to look after them, and learn a completely new way of charging and using batteries. 

 

Once installed though, they really are fit and forget. If prepared to do some research, design your own system using advice on here and elsewhere, and source the components and batteries (used or new) then they have finally become an affordable alternative, and actually compare favourably on price with a decent lead acid setup. 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Tom and Bex

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, Tom and Bex said:

 

 

At the end of the day it's up to individuals to make their own judgement on what system is best for them and their needs, and I'd never advise anyone to blindly install lithiums without reading up and understanding them first. It's very very difficult to forget everything you know and understand about lead acid batteries, how they work, and how to look after them, and learn a completely new way of charging and using batteries. 

 

Once installed though, they really are fit and forget. If prepared to do some research, design your own system using advice on here and elsewhere, and source the components and batteries (used or new) then they have finally become an affordable alternative, and actually compare favourably on price with a decent lead acid setup. 

Well said that man!?

[MtB]

Thinking about my hobby boats, lithium would suit them very well for a completely different reason. 

 

On finishing a day's cruise out on a hobby boat I find I frequently moor up on the home mooring, stay for a while using leccy on the fridge, puter, lights, heater etc, then go home leaving LA batts partly charged. Solar partly overcomes this problem but lithium wouldn't care.