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13 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

Cheers I'm probably showing how little I know here! The only red wire in the vicinity is the one that connects to the wire that runs the length of the unit, close to the fuse units. All other wires are black. So, each of the 6 toggles has 2 black wires, and one black wire from its fuse.

We had a similar problem earlier in the year. I kept moving the water pump supply to different switches. Solved the problem by disconnecting the -ve wire from the panel to earth ( i.e. The battery -ve ......not real earth) to provide the circuit for the switch illumination. The panel now only has 12v +ve wires. No problems ever since. The weird voltage readings must have been due to the -ve  circuit. No switch illumination but no water pump problems any more.

Maybe you have a similar issue.

Edited by Dr Bob
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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

A bit more about the switch panel, following further investigation. I can't take pictures, unfortunately.

 

The panel isn't illuminated. There are 6 toggle switches. Now to the back of the unit:

 

Behind each toggle switch there are 2 soldered black wires. One of these runs to behind the fuse cavity, it's soldered here. The other one runs behind the wall where it's connected via a small blue plastic block, assume a connector, to a red wire. So, despite the black wire giving the impression (to me) that this is a negative part of the circuit the red wires behind the wall now suggests (to me) that they are positive.

 

To the side of the fuse cavities is a single thickish wire that's soldered to each of the fuse cavities. This ends in a spade connector to which is connected a thick red wire which then disappears behind the wall.

 

My knowledge is tiny (that will be obvious!) but it now seems to me that the whole switch assembly deals with what I call positive, some call +ve I think. Quite where the negative comes in I'm not sure, perhaps that's continuous from the battery to everywhere? I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud.

 

I'd like to try to by pass the switch unit, I feel that this might be the problem. 

 

Incidentally I've just measured some more voltages. Battery voltage 13.5. Water switch off: voltage of positive wire at water pump: 0. Water switch on: Between positive and negative wires at the water pump: 1.6v. Between positive wire at pump and copper pipe nearby: 1.6v. Both these were higher last night; 7-8 volts.     

 

 

 

Edited by The Welsh Cruiser
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3 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

I'm at Congleton. I'm getting by, I can wire up an old battery directly to the pump to get some bottles of water but it's not ideal. I need to lug the battery to the other end of the boat, connect it to the others and run the engine and the battery is old, it doesn't last long. 

Would you like a hand at some point in the week? 

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56 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

Very kind of you! I'm going to be moving in the middle of the week, probably to Macclesfield. Hopefully sort it before then but right now, that doesn't seem certain.

I'm in manchester city centre and would be happy to take a look if I can get near

 

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I think this is worth saying:

 

6 toggle switches in the panel. All switches in the 'off' position.

 

If I touch a probe from my multimeter on the soldered connection behind each toggle switch that runs to a positive wire, and the other probe to the wire that runs along the fuse side of the switch unit I get a voltage reading similar to that of my batteries; 13.6.

 

However, there is an exception to this:

 

If I perform the same test with the toggle switch that controls the water pump I only get a reading of 0.5-0.6 volts.

 

I don't really understand but this leads me to believe that the fault is either with the switch, the fuse holder, or both.

 

Does anyone know which conclusion I might draw, or any further testing I might do to narrow this down further? 

7 minutes ago, Tash and Bex said:

I'm in manchester city centre and would be happy to take a look if I can get near

 

Probably 20 miles, heck of a distance but it's a kind thought, thanks. Maybe you could ascertain something from what I've just posted?

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2 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

Behind each toggle switch there are 2 soldered black wires. One of these runs to behind the fuse cavity, it's soldered here. The other one runs behind the wall where it's connected via a small blue plastic block, assume a connector, to a red wire. So, despite the black wire giving the impression (to me) that this is a negative part of the circuit the red wires behind the wall now suggests (to me) that they are positive.

 

2 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

To the side of the fuse cavities is a single thickish wire that's soldered to each of the fuse cavities. This ends in a spade connector to which is connected a thick red wire which then disappears behind the wall.

You appear to have 'black' wires connected to a red wire that disappears thru the wall, and

You appear to have a (Red ?) wire with a spade connector that disappears thru the wall.

 

Do you have a common 'negative' (black wire) busbar where all the 'appliance' negatives go to ?

 

It doe not bode well for fault identification.

 

If Bex / Tash is prepared to come and help you I'd take her up on her offer - I'm sure she'd be grateful for a mug of tea and some petrol money, but it will be quicker & cheaper than getting a 'boat electrician' to come out.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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43 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You appear to have 'black' wires connected to a red wire that disappears thru the wall, and

You appear to have a (Red ?) wire with a spade connector that disappears thru the wall.

 

Do you have a common 'negative' (black wire) busbar where all the 'appliance' negatives go to ?

 

It doe not bode well for fault identification.

 

If Bex / Tash is prepared to come and help you I'd take her up on her offer - I'm sure she'd be grateful for a mug of tea and some petrol money, but it will be quicker & cheaper than getting a 'boat electrician' to come out.

What He said.....probably wouldn't take me too long tbh, and Tash works in Northwich, it's about 30 mins from there, I can go in with her and take the car 

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3 minutes ago, Tash and Bex said:

What He said.....probably wouldn't take me too long tbh, and Tash works in Northwich, it's about 30 mins from there, I can go in with her and take the car 

Well if you could, I'd be ever so grateful. Would Congleton or Macclesfield be better? I'm due to move by Thursday, but could delay.

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4 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

I'm at Congleton. I'm getting by, I can wire up an old battery directly to the pump to get some bottles of water but it's not ideal. I need to lug the battery to the other end of the boat, connect it to the others and run the engine and the battery is old, it doesn't last long. 

Bugge, if I had known I would have stopped , I came through there 2 days ago

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I think I may be able to solve this by buying a new toggle switch locally.

 

Multimeter readings, all with switches in 'off' position.

 

DC Volts between the 2 terminals behind each switch:

 

5 switches 12.6v

Water pump switch 0.9V

 

Connectivity between power terminal behind switch (rather than the terminal that goes to the fuse) and the main power lead:

 

5 switches o/s (no connectivity)

Water pump switch 10.13 

 

There clearly seems to be something wrong with the water pump switch, given the inconsistency with the voltage reading. The connectivity difference has thrown me though, I don't understand.

 

Given these readings might fitting a new switch (4 quid, Halfrauds) be a reasonable way to go, then take it from there? 

 

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5 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

Given these readings might fitting a new switch (4 quid, Halfrauds) be a reasonable way to go, then take it from there?

If you are confident you can find a suitable replacement or identify which wires to attatch to a different type of switch, then yes,it would be worth a go. A cheaper way would be to bypass the switch altogether to prove it. 

 

The problem I am having, is that I am far from clear what actual measurements you are taking. It is very difficult without a diagram or photo. 

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16 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

Given these readings might fitting a new switch (4 quid, Halfrauds) be a reasonable way to go, then take it from there? 

Earlier you said that all the connections were soldered and you didn't have a soldering iron.

 

Do you now have one, or will you buy one from Halfrauds at the same time ?

 

Are the Halfrauds ones the same connections (or are they spade type) and are the current ratings the same ?

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15 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

The test results you describe, if I understand correctly (voltage across the switch) does not indicate a switch problem to me. What voltage do you have across the fuse with switch on?

It's just a few mv. If I hold the probes in place for a few seconds it works its way down to zero. 

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20 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

The test results you describe, if I understand correctly (voltage across the switch) does not indicate a switch problem to me. What voltage do you have across the fuse with switch on?

Its the correctly understanding bit I am finding hard because the description of what has been done where and under what conditions is not clear from the text. Certainly my suggestions to avoid connecting between two positives or two negatives and thus isolating the fault to either the positive or negative side of the seem to have been ignored. Also the talk of three wires on each switch without  (as far as I can remember) clarifying if it is three wires on three terminals or three wires with two on one terminal and one on the other does nothing to help understanding.  I fear the OP is in effect doing volt drop tests between two positives without understanding what he is doing or seeing. I have seen nothing to suggest his meter has one lead connected to a decent negative.

 

If the water pump switch was on and the fuse in between switch and pump in the last reading then it sounds like a high resistance between the main positive feed to the switch.

 

If the fuse is between the main positive feed to the panel and the switch and the switch is turned on then it sounds like a high resistance between the main panel feed positive and the switch - probably in the fuse assembly.

 

BUT and its a big but this assumes we have understood exactly how the meter has been connected.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Earlier you said that all the connections were soldered and you didn't have a soldering iron.

 

Do you now have one, or will you buy one from Halfrauds at the same time ?

 

Are the Halfrauds ones the same connections (or are they spade type) and are the current ratings the same ?

The Halfrauds switch comes with 'fly leads' attached. The tentative plan is to connect one of the 'fly leads' to the wire that goes to the pump. One of those scotchlock connectors there at the moment, get rid of that, connect with one of those small screw connectors you buy in a block. Then for the wire to the fuse, cut the existing connection, connect the other 'fly lead' with another screw connector.

 

The rating on the Halfrauds switch isn't stated. Similar ones on ebay are rated at 20/25a, pump is 6 I think. I'd check on the packaging before buying it.

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4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Its the correctly understanding bit I am finding hard because the description of what has been done where and under what conditions is not clear from the text. Certainly my suggestions to avoid connecting between two positives or two negatives and thus isolating the fault to either the positive or negative side of the seem to have been ignored. Also the talk of three wires on each switch without  (as far as I can remember) clarifying if it is three wires on three terminals or three wires with two on one terminal and one on the other does nothing to help understanding.  I fear the OP is in effect doing volt drop tests between two positives without understanding what he is doing or seeing. I have seen nothing to suggest his meter has one lead connected to a decent negative.

 

If the water pump switch was on and the fuse in between switch and pump in the last reading then it sounds like a high resistance between the main positive feed to the switch.

 

If the fuse is between the main positive feed to the panel and the switch and the switch is turned on then it sounds like a high resistance between the main panel feed positive and the switch - probably in the fuse assembly.

 

BUT and its a big but this assumes we have understood exactly how the meter has been connected.

Sorry Tony it's all a bit tricky for me this, haven't given up, but sometimes I find it difficult to follow some instructions, and I don't have long pieces of wire to carry out all suggested tests.

 

One thing I can clarify: when I wrote about 3 terminals on the switches, that was nonsense. There are 2, the other terminal is on the fuse holder. 

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38 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

If you are confident you can find a suitable replacement or identify which wires to attatch to a different type of switch, then yes,it would be worth a go. A cheaper way would be to bypass the switch altogether to prove it. 

 

The problem I am having, is that I am far from clear what actual measurements you are taking. It is very difficult without a diagram or photo. 

I think I know how to bypass the switch but could only do it by wrapping a bit of wire around a ring connector, then a joint at the other end by twisting 2 wires together. I don't have any crocodile clips or similar. I'm a bit nervous about doing it to be honest, but might just give it a go. 

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