Choosing new batteries...

[IanD]

1 hour ago, magictime said:

And yes - AGMs. Now these really are in the same price bracket as Trojans (c. £150 per 100Ah at 12V). Do people find they compete, lifespan-wise? And will they object to going without equalisation charges?

What's that? I can't hear you over this AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Leoch pure lead-carbon 100Ah 12V are £240 now and are claimed to have several times the lifetime of any normal LA, especially when cycling at PSOC (Partial State Of Charge).

 

https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-leoch-pure-lead-carbon-plh-c100-deep-cycle-leisure-battery

[magictime]

18 minutes ago, IanD said:

Leoch pure lead-carbon 100Ah 12V are £240 now and are claimed to have several times the lifetime of any normal LA, especially when cycling at PSOC (Partial State Of Charge).

 

https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-leoch-pure-lead-carbon-plh-c100-deep-cycle-leisure-battery

Intriguing, thank you. At least 50% more expensive than Trojan T105s... But if I thought they were genuinely going to be happy cycling between say 50% and 90%, meaning no need for hours and hours of engine/gennie running in winter to ensure full charges...

[IanD]

32 minutes ago, magictime said:

Intriguing, thank you. At least 50% more expensive than Trojan T105s... But if I thought they were genuinely going to be happy cycling between say 50% and 90%, meaning no need for hours and hours of engine/gennie running in winter to ensure full charges...

It seems that Leoch aren't just making this up for marketing purposes, they've actually done some proper research...

 

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8214146

 

https://www.boatingbusiness.com/news101/inland-waterways/new-long-life-lead-carbon-batteries

 

The 100Ah model is considerably cheaper per Ah than any of the bigger batteries, probably because it sells in much bigger volumes.

[PeterF]

I have installed a bank of the 100Ah Leoch batteries but have less than one year to date so much to early to tell. I believe that the Leoch number of cycles chart is for full charging each cycle not the partial state of charge operation. If you check the Northstar Blue+ batteries that predate the Leoch batteries and are made in much the same range in the taller telecom style cases, they quote optimal charging giving circa 2000 cycles at 50% DOD and about half this for lesser charging regimes. Northstar also suggest for PSOC operation that they are recharged to 95% and that every 2 weeks they receive an equalization charge. See Northstar Blue+ lead carbon manual. Northstar give a lot more technical details on the operation of these batteries than Leoch. When I asked DBS Leoch what the recommending charge parameters were they just said, choose the AGM setting on your charger. The other good point about these is that they have a lower Peukert effect than standard lead acid batteries, so do not loose as much amp hours when discharging higher currents, nor does the terminal voltage fall as much, which helps reduce the amp demand for a given inverter output power. Victron also sell lead acid batteries and their cycle figures are more in line with the lower Northstar curve. Unless you are on a shoreline all the time I can not see canal use achieving "optimal" battery charging conditions.

 

Leoch

 

Northstar

 

 

[Slim]

4 hours ago, magictime said:

Fifteen minutes with a turkey baster and a bottle of water, not a deal breaker.

For some it's not so much a deal breaker as a back breaker.

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, Slim said:

For some it's not so much a deal breaker as a back breaker.

Precisely. these threads just prove there is no definitive answer. All battery types do the job, its more about how each of us see the fors and againsts each type. No one is right or indeed wrong. The threads do however bring information to people with little knowledge of living off grid and thats a good thing.

[magictime]

56 minutes ago, Slim said:

For some it's not so much a deal breaker as a back breaker.

Yeah fair enough. My leisure batteries are very easy to access; of course not everyone has that luxury. My starter battery is a awkward to get at and you can't see in properly to judge the electrolyte level, so yes it's a pain to top up and I look forward to replacing it with a sealed one when it dies!

[magictime]

1 hour ago, PeterF said:

I have installed a bank of the 100Ah Leoch batteries but have less than one year to date so much to early to tell. I believe that the Leoch number of cycles chart is for full charging each cycle not the partial state of charge operation. If you check the Northstar Blue+ batteries that predate the Leoch batteries and are made in much the same range in the taller telecom style cases, they quote optimal charging giving circa 2000 cycles at 50% DOD and about half this for lesser charging regimes. Northstar also suggest for PSOC operation that they are recharged to 95% and that every 2 weeks they receive an equalization charge. See Northstar Blue+ lead carbon manual. Northstar give a lot more technical details on the operation of these batteries than Leoch. When I asked DBS Leoch what the recommending charge parameters were they just said, choose the AGM setting on your charger. The other good point about these is that they have a lower Peukert effect than standard lead acid batteries, so do not loose as much amp hours when discharging higher currents, nor does the terminal voltage fall as much, which helps reduce the amp demand for a given inverter output power. Victron also sell lead acid batteries and their cycle figures are more in line with the lower Northstar curve. Unless you are on a shoreline all the time I can not see canal use achieving "optimal" battery charging conditions.

 

Leoch

 

Northstar

 

 

Thanks for this. The suggestion that a similar battery requires an equalization charge every fortnight is less than encouraging! Why should that be if the whole point is to avoid sulphation? A quick Google turns up some advice from Victron that their lead carbon batteries should not need equalization charges if fully charged at least every week or two, which fits with a winter cruising schedule, so if the Leochs are similar that would be OK. Hmm.

[Richard10002]

33 minutes ago, magictime said:

Yeah fair enough. My leisure batteries are very easy to access; of course not everyone has that luxury. My starter battery is a awkward to get at and you can't see in properly to judge the electrolyte level, so yes it's a pain to top up and I look forward to replacing it with a sealed one when it dies!

You probably don’t need to replace it with a sealed one to avoid topping up. If you avoid reaching the voltage at which gassing occurs, they will never need topping up. You will have to do this with sealed batteries, because you can’t top them up.

[PeterF]

1 hour ago, magictime said:

Thanks for this. The suggestion that a similar battery requires an equalization charge every fortnight is less than encouraging! Why should that be if the whole point is to avoid sulphation? A quick Google turns up some advice from Victron that their lead carbon batteries should not need equalization charges if fully charged at least every week or two, which fits with a winter cruising schedule, so if the Leochs are similar that would be OK. Hmm.

I do not believe that the equalization charge is anything to do with desulphation as the voltage is only 14.46V, neither will it be to cause gassing to stir electrolyte, again too low a voltage. I believe it is advised to equalize the cells, lead acid batteries normally get the cells equalized during the final tail current charge. However, there is a risk (theoretical or actual, I do not know) that permanent PSOC operation may allow the cells to diverge. I mostly operate mine to full charge, but if I have a day where I only travel for a couple of hours, then I am not worried if I do not get a full charge. The same applies if I moor up for a few days,  I limit the engine run time to about 90 mins.

 

In terms of topping up standard lead acids, a real pain as I have to disconnect and lift out some batteries to get to the ones behind, not an ideal layout.

[cuthound]

7 hours ago, magictime said:

And yes - AGMs. Now these really are in the same price bracket as Trojans (c. £150 per 100Ah at 12V). Do people find they compete, lifespan-wise? And will they object to going without equalisation charges?

What's that? I can't hear you over this AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

My boat (which I bought 5 yesrs ago) was fitted with Lifeline AGM's from new.

 

Whilst they are eye wateringly expensive, they are still going strong and after 12 years still have around 50% of their original capacity.

[MtB]

 

Do lead carbon batteries need topping up with water like LA batts?

 

 

[PeterF]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Do lead carbon batteries need topping up with water like LA batts?

 

 

The lead carbon batteries most companies are selling are sealed AGM batteries with improved negative plates using lead carbon.

[magictime]

1 hour ago, PeterF said:

I do not believe that the equalization charge is anything to do with desulphation as the voltage is only 14.46V, neither will it be to cause gassing to stir electrolyte, again too low a voltage. I believe it is advised to equalize the cells, lead acid batteries normally get the cells equalized during the final tail current charge. However, there is a risk (theoretical or actual, I do not know) that permanent PSOC operation may allow the cells to diverge. I mostly operate mine to full charge, but if I have a day where I only travel for a couple of hours, then I am not worried if I do not get a full charge. The same applies if I moor up for a few days,  I limit the engine run time to about 90 mins.

 

In terms of topping up standard lead acids, a real pain as I have to disconnect and lift out some batteries to get to the ones behind, not an ideal layout.

No, it doesn't sound like it!

 

Sounds like what they're calling an equalisation charge is more just about a good full charge at a normal voltage every couple of weeks? Not what I think of - high voltage to cause batteries to gassing etc.

 

59 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

My boat (which I bought 5 yesrs ago) was fitted with Lifeline AGM's from new.

 

Whilst they are eye wateringly expensive, they are still going strong and after 12 years still have around 50% of their original capacity.

Thanks. I seem to recall, though, that Lifeline do specifically recommend regular equalisation charges, which is the very thing I'm hoping I can manage without (given the limitations of my off-grid set-up).

[cuthound]

13 hours ago, magictime said:

No, it doesn't sound like it!

 

Sounds like what they're calling an equalisation charge is more just about a good full charge at a normal voltage every couple of weeks? Not what I think of - high voltage to cause batteries to gassing etc.

 

Thanks. I seem to recall, though, that Lifeline do specifically recommend regular equalisation charges, which is the very thing I'm hoping I can manage without (given the limitations of my off-grid set-up).

 

The term "equalising charge" comes from the need to peridically correct the minor voltage imbalances that develop between cells over time.

 

The "high voltage equalising charge" is something done quite rarely (once or twice a year) on most uses for batteries, where the battery is always fully recharged after any discharge. It is the way boaters routinely undercharge batteries that makes it frequently necessary.

 

Yes Lifelines do need periodic equalization. My Victron charger does this automatically, as the boat is always on a shoreline when not cruising.

[magictime]

On ‎28‎/‎09‎/‎2019 at 13:38, IanD said:

The 100Ah model is considerably cheaper per Ah than any of the bigger batteries, probably because it sells in much bigger volumes.

I've just ordered 2 x 252Ah Leoch Pure Lead Carbons from the Battery Store (Leoch's own shop, I believe), where they're priced at £450 each - so about 25% cheaper per amp hour than the 100Ah ones, if my maths is correct. I think the price might have dropped since you posted this though; I don't remember them being that cheap a month ago. They're still £590 each at Alpha Batteries. 

 

Suits me very well cos the 100Ah ones wouldn't quite have fitted in my battery locker.

 

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, magictime said:

I've just ordered 2 x 252Ah Leoch Pure Lead Carbons from the Battery Store (Leoch's own shop, I believe), where they're priced at £450 each - so about 25% cheaper per amp hour than the 100Ah ones, if my maths is correct. I think the price might have dropped since you posted this though; I don't remember them being that cheap a month ago. They're still £590 each at Alpha Batteries. 

 

Suits me very well cos the 100Ah ones wouldn't quite have fitted in my battery locker.

 

Yes the price of the big 215Ah ones has dropped (only at batterystore so far) so they're now cheaper per Ah than the small 100Ah ones. They also have quantity discounts but I don't know if 2 is enough to qualify...

 

These look like a better solution than same-size batteries from Northstar and Odyssey, better for PSOC applications like narrowboats.

[cuthound]

Please keep us updated on performance and longevity.

 

I'm sure it will be of interest to many.

[magictime]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Yes the price of the big 215Ah ones has dropped (only at batterystore so far) so they're now cheaper per Ah than the small 100Ah ones. They also have quantity discounts but I don't know if 2 is enough to qualify...

 

These look like a better solution than same-size batteries from Northstar and Odyssey, better for PSOC applications like narrowboats.

252Ah is the 20-hour rating, so I'm going by that one as I think it's the one most people would regard as the 'default' for leisure batteries. And yes, I did get 2.5% off for buying two; plus they were kind enough to offer free delivery as we're moored locally for their Nottingham store at the minute.

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

Please keep us updated on performance and longevity.

 

I'm sure it will be of interest to many.

Will do. I'm having a Smartgauge and amp-hour counter fitted at the same time as the batteries, so hopefully will be able to feed back with some useful info about real-life charging times and loss of capacity over time.

[magictime]

My thinking as regards longevity, incidentally, is this:

 

Assume the baseline for comparison here is 500Ah of basic sealed lead acids at half the price (£440), which might last three years if looked after reasonably well. To look after them reasonably well, given that we live aboard and CC year round, I'd have wanted to buy a suitcase generator to ensure they got a full charge say twice a week, with an initial outlay of no less than £250 (for something with a fighting chance of lasting me three winters, say a Kipor) and petrol costs over three years of no less than £200 . 

 

If the Leochs' fast charging and resilience to partial states of charge means I can get away with just doing a daily cycle from say 60% to 85% while running the engine for hot water, with a full charge every week or two while cruising, I can therefore regard a three-year lifespan as my approximate 'break-even' point.

 

Of course, it'd be nice if they lasted me six or nine years instead, but as I say, I'll keep you posted!

 

(For clarity, I'm talking about winter-only charging regimes here because, between solar and cruising, I don't think it'll be an issue to get regular full charges in summer.)

Edited October 26, 2019 by magictime