Choosing new batteries...

[magictime]

I think my Trojans are coming to the end of their life. I've not done too badly - they were four years old when we bought the boat and it's taken me a further two years to kill 'em.

 

So, I've been weighing up what to replace them with and how best to care for those replacements. One factor in my decision is that we have an older Sterling Pro D battery charger that, as far as I can make out, isn't programmable to do an equalisation charge. And in any case, we're never on shore power and I'm still on the fence about buying a generator, so I'm not sure we could do an equalisation charge even with an appropriate charger.

 

As such, I'm wondering if we wouldn't really be able to properly care for open-cell Trojans over a lifespan of several years, and if it therefore makes more sense for us to go for cheap, sealed batteries with a shorter but 'maintenance-free' lifespan. Any thoughts?

 

And if we do decide to go down the sealed route, any tips on whether it's worth looking for/investing in any particular type of battery - AGM, calcium, etc.? I'm not even finding it that easy to identify which batteries are sealed, if I'm honest - the Tayna website, for instance, suggests somewhere that most batteries nowadays are sealed, but doesn't (I think...) spell out which are and which aren't, or let you 'filter' them in that way.

[Dr Bob]

To start the ball rolling, what voltage  do you get out of your alternator on absorption? The max I could get out of mine was 14.3V so that would seem to rule out Trojans....well at least it did for us. We had cheapo sealed LA's put on ours 30 months ago and they had only lost a max of 10% capacity in 2 years...but ours never really went below 80% SoC as we had 660Ahrs of capacity and usually back to 100% every 2 days (running the engine everyday......retired now so plenty of time to run engine).

We changed to Li's though (rather than going the Trojan route) in March to reduce time needed to run the engine.

[magictime]

41 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

To start the ball rolling, what voltage  do you get out of your alternator on absorption? The max I could get out of mine was 14.3V

Ooer, I was hoping I wouldn't have to know stuff. I think it's about 14.4V but I'll try and check next time I run the engine long enough for the voltage to properly climb... Although could that not be more to do with charger settings anyway?

[Dr Bob]

6 hours ago, magictime said:

Ooer, I was hoping I wouldn't have to know stuff. I think it's about 14.4V but I'll try and check next time I run the engine long enough for the voltage to properly climb... Although could that not be more to do with charger settings anyway?

If your charger is a mains charger...No. The alternator will set the voltage in absorption. I ruled out Trojans cause my alternator just doesn't push out enough voltage especially in winter when it could do with being higher. Worth checking what voltage you get. You should be up at full voltage when up over 85% SoC. You are getting up to full charge a few times a week....right?

 

I'm sure someone clever will be along in a mo to let you know what voltage is needed for Trojans.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Dr Bob

[MtB]

AS MP points out, now would be an EXCELLENT time for the OP to switch to lithium, rather than splurge a load of money on old hat and difficult to charge LA technology.

 

Peterboat's promotion of second hand cells rather distorts the arguments I think. So if one buys new bare cells, how much do they cost nowadays and where is the place to buy?

 

And Dr Bob said recently a basic home brew management system can be built for £250 IIRC. What components exactly would this comprise? 

 

 

[magictime]

59 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

If your charger is a mains charger...No. The alternator will set the voltage in absorption. I ruled out Trojans cause my alternator just doesn't push out enough voltage especially in winter when it could do with being higher. Worth checking what voltage you get. You should be up at full voltage when up over 85% SoC. You are getting up to full charge a few times a week....right?

 

I'm sure someone clever will be along in a mo to let you know what voltage is needed for Trojans.

Oh Gawd. Right. Yes, of course you're right that my mains charger has nothing to do with the voltage coming from the alternator... although I do have a Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger, so I don't know if/how that might affect things. I believe the boat's had two sets of Trojans lasting 7 years and 6 years (these are still there but now on their last legs I think), so I think day-to-day charging must be adequate... but I don't know if previous owners might have somehow managed the occasional equalisation charge, which is why I'm not feeling confident of getting the same longevity if I buy Trojans again. 

 

We get a full charge several times a week from spring to autumn (what with cruising and solar), but I'm far less confident about our winter regime. Last year it was c. 3 hours a day of engine running plus a longer cruising day every week or two.

 

37 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

AS MP points out, now would be an EXCELLENT time for the OP to switch to lithium, rather than splurge a load of money on old hat and difficult to charge LA technology.

 

Peterboat's promotion of second hand cells rather distorts the arguments I think. So if one buys new bare cells, how much do they cost nowadays and where is the place to buy?

 

And Dr Bob said recently a basic home brew management system can be built for £250 IIRC. What components exactly would this comprise? 

 

I haven't really opened the can of worms labelled 'lithium batteries', although I can absolutely see the benefit of batteries without the 'diminishing returns' problem of LA when charging. I'm not sure I fancy being an early adopter though - more inclined to wait till they're a bit more tried and tested on narrowboats and maybe a bit (or a lot) cheaper. Also I read somewhere that they don't like the cold?

[mrsmelly]

There are more opinions on batteries than a certain political subject. You will get thirty different answers. Choose well what you take onboard. My only experience come from thirty years of full time live aboard use mostly off grid. I always buy sealed jobbies, not the very cheapest but at about 100 squids each. I get fantastic service for a minimum of two years, often longer. I have four batteries and run all mains equipment with ease. This works out at 50 pence a day if they last 2 years ish if my quick head count is correct? I aint peeing about mollicodling batteries, topping up with water and crap like that for fifty pence a day, not on your nellie. Your choice.

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

I aint peeing about mollicodling batteries, topping up with water and crap like that for fifty pence a day, not on your nellie. Your choice.

Do you have a travel power that does some of the 'heavy lifting' for you smelly? 

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

Do you have a travel power that does some of the 'heavy lifting' for you smelly? 

I do on this boat and I did on my Hudson, BUT I didnt on the other six  Bloomin Lithium, you will be telling me to buy a Nissan Leaf next to park up in a motorway service station twice each journey!!

[rusty69]

7 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I do on this boat and I did on my Hudson, BUT I didnt on the other six  Bloomin Lithium, you will be telling me to buy a Nissan Leaf next to park up in a motorway service station twice each journey!!

I reckon you get a new boat each time the batteries need replacing. 

[mrsmelly]

12 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I reckon you get a new boat each time the batteries need replacing. 

eeeeeeeejut, Go top yer batteries up!!

[rusty69]

Just now, mrsmelly said:

eeeeeeeejut, Go top yer batteries up!!

I have a, sealed AGM on the boat I am currently on?

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

I have a, sealed AGM on the boat I am currently on?

Very wise indeed ?

[blackrose]

10 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

 

I'm sure someone clever will be along in a mo to let you know what voltage is needed for Trojans.

 

14.8v for a normal absorption charge I think (but I'm not that clever really!) I think most open wet lead acids want 14.8v. Sealed are generally 14.4v although my new Hancook sealed BT batteries will take up to 14.6v according to battery megastore when I pushed them for an answer. 

 

Without wishing to open up a whole "nuther" debate, my external alternator regulator (which we're always told aren't necessary for modern alternators) raises the output of my moderernish 15 year old Lucas alternator from 14.4v to 14.8v. It's only a 70amp alternator which only puts out about 45 amps max, but in terms of increasing the voltage the external regulator does work. I've no idea whether it would work in conjunction with the bigger output alternators that some of you chaps have on your boats.

Edited September 28, 2019 by blackrose

[Dr Bob]

10 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

And Dr Bob said recently a basic home brew management system can be built for £250 IIRC. What components exactly would this comprise? 

 

 

Yep. I reckon you can get by with £250. I spent £500 which included £100 of cabling but if you know what you are doing, you dont need to spend that much.

[rusty69]

Just now, Dr Bob said:

Yep. I reckon you can get by with £250. I spent £500 which included £100 of cabling but if you know what you are doing, you dont need to spend that much.

Didn't you know what you were doing then? 

[Dr Bob]

9 hours ago, magictime said:

... although I do have a Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger, so I don't know if/how that might affect things.

 

Also I read somewhere that they don't like the cold?

The biggest worry I had installing Li's was the potential to overcharge via the alternator which would continue to kick out 14.2V till it fried the Li's. The design I used was a auto disconnect on reaching 13.9V. In practice however I have never reached this trip point as I also have a Sterling AtoB and it is perfect for my system. When set on US gel setting, it controls the charge and throttles the charge back (and the voltage) so it has never overcharged...but we rarely do more than 5 hours per day. For winter charging, I change the setting to the standard gel and run the engine for an hour or so.

 

On temperature, you cannot charge below zero but mine are under the bed and never get that cold. Again there is an auto cut out set at 5 deg C.

[Dr Bob]

6 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Didn't you know what you were doing then? 

Well not really. I spent £150 on the auto disconnect switch which is £100 over the top and a second level of overvoltage control which is more peace of mind but not really needed if you charging regime keeps you away from high SoCs. I would simplify the system if I did it agin today.

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

. I would simplify the system if I did it agin today.

Come and install one for me. You can have all the gin you want. 

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

 

I aint peeing about mollicodling batteries, topping up with water and crap like that for fifty pence a day, not on your nellie. Your choice.

This thread shouldnt be about Li's but the 50p per day is only the cost of the batteries. Wot about all the fuel and engine servicing needed to run the engine 3 hrs per day? I reckon I will save many hours a week running the engine which will reduce running costs by maybe up to £1 per day.

8 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Come and install one for me. You can have all the gin you want. 

Do I have to bring my own tonic?

[magictime]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

There are more opinions on batteries than a certain political subject. You will get thirty different answers. Choose well what you take onboard. My only experience come from thirty years of full time live aboard use mostly off grid. I always buy sealed jobbies, not the very cheapest but at about 100 squids each. I get fantastic service for a minimum of two years, often longer. I have four batteries and run all mains equipment with ease. This works out at 50 pence a day if they last 2 years ish if my quick head count is correct? I aint peeing about mollicodling batteries, topping up with water and crap like that for fifty pence a day, not on your nellie. Your choice.

Yes, I wasn't really looking to re-ignite the whole debate, just to figure out if Trojans make less sense (and sealed batteries more sense) if I'm not in a position to do occasional equalisation charges.

 

I'm leaning towards your way of thinking on this one (if not on a certain political subject). BUT I'm mindful that 4 x 6V 225Ah Trojan T105s 'only' cost about £580, compared to £400 for 4 x 12V 110Ah sealed LAs of the sort you favour, so it wouldn't be a huge additional investment* if I though I was going to get two or three times the lifespan.

 

It's funny, I bet there are all sorts of 'little jobs' you'd do without a second thought that I'd make a right fuss about (I don't have a practical bone in my body) but topping up batteries is one thing even I'm happy to do! It's about as difficult as making a round of teas and coffees and only crops up two or three times a year. Fifteen minutes with a turkey baster and a bottle of water, not a deal breaker.

 

*MtB will be along shortly to explain that it's not an investment because batteries lose value over time. I know the drill.

[Dr Bob]

6 minutes ago, magictime said:

 

MtB will be along shortly to explain that it's not an investment because batteries lose value over time. I know the drill.

I'd be careful with the drill near the batteries.

[magictime]

And yes - AGMs. Now these really are in the same price bracket as Trojans (c. £150 per 100Ah at 12V). Do people find they compete, lifespan-wise? And will they object to going without equalisation charges?

2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I'd be careful with the drill near the batteries.

What's that? I can't hear you over this AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[blackrose]

8 minutes ago, magictime said:

 

I'm leaning towards your way of thinking on this one (if not on a certain political subject). BUT I'm mindful that 4 x 6V 225Ah Trojan T105s 'only' cost about £580, compared to £400 for 4 x 12V 110Ah sealed LAs of the sort you favour, so it wouldn't be a huge additional investment* if I though I was going to get two or three times the lifespan.

 

Yes, if you get double the lifespan then the Trojans cost less than 40p/day. If you get triple the lifespan then they're less than 27p/day. None of these costs are a deal breaker but Trojans seem like a better choice to me than 54p/day for the cheapo sealed and having to change them again after just two years. As you say, topping up batteries a few times a year isn't a big deal either.

[magictime]

28 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Yes, if you get double the lifespan then the Trojans cost less than 40p/day. If you get triple the lifespan then they're less than 27p/day. None of these costs are a deal breaker but Trojans seem like a better choice to me than 54p/day for the cheapo sealed and having to change them again after just two years. As you say, topping up batteries a few times a year isn't a big deal either.

Yeah it's this question about whether the lack of equalisation charges is likely to drastically shorten their lifespan that's making me hesitate, but so far nobody's ventured an opinion.