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Impact of White diesel cost per month


Mick in Bangkok

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1 minute ago, Captain Fizz said:

It is having it delivered canalside that is likely to be the problem. That and my tank only being 150 litres.

Not normally a problem to meet them somewhere they can get a trolley and off load a barrel - but 200 litres would obviously be a bit of a faff as you'd need to be virtually empty and have a couple of Jerry cans, but they do leave the barrel if you have storage space.

 

Just a thought - seems daft to be paying £1.50 (+) when you can get Kero at 60p ish in small loads

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46 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Not normally a problem to meet them somewhere they can get a trolley and off load a barrel - but 200 litres would obviously be a bit of a faff as you'd need to be virtually empty and have a couple of Jerry cans, but they do leave the barrel if you have storage space.

 

Just a thought - seems daft to be paying £1.50 (+) when you can get Kero at 60p ish in small loads

That is probably what I will do as I have a diesel cooker as well as for heating

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2 hours ago, Captain Fizz said:

I have a dedicated tank for heating, feeding a 15Kw oil fired boiler.

Living aboard last winter, I consumed about 100 Litres per month running the heating for two hours in the morning and four in the evening.

The system heats the boat (radiators) and  90 Litre unvented water cylinder.

 

I am able to buy red diesel for heating at 100% domestic so to run on white diesel will be a considerable increase in cost.

I could run on kerosene at approx. 70p per litre but I would have to factor in my cost for delivery.

 

It is all a bit "wait and see" at the moment.

As I understand it, having a dedicated tank for domestic will be ok. ?

You’ll still be able to buy and use red for domestic. 

As long as the red can’t be fed to the  engine and used for propulsion. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Goliath said:

As I understand it, having a dedicated tank for domestic will be ok. ?

You’ll still be able to buy and use red for domestic. 

As long as the red can’t be fed to the  engine and used for propulsion. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As I 'read it' the main problem will be that Red is unlikely to be still available on the canals.

 

No one will put in extra infrastructure and double up everything, they will simply drain and clean their existing system and sell only 'white'.

 

Mind you tho, you can still buy red in barrels delivered to the boat, but Kero is a lot cheaper.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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43 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

As I 'read it' the main problem will be that Red is unlikely to be still available on the canals.

 

No one will put in extra infrastructure and double up everything, they will simply drain and clean their existing system and sell only 'white'.

 

Mind you tho, you can still buy red in barrels delivered to the boat, but Kero is a lot cheaper.

There’s always an option to have red delivered in a bowser if it’s a worthwhile delivery. 

It just takes a few boaters to get together to make the order. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Goliath
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44 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

As I 'read it' the main problem will be that Red is unlikely to be still available on the canals.

 

No one will put in extra infrastructure and double up everything, they will simply drain and clean their existing system and sell only 'white'.

 

Mind you tho, you can still buy red in barrels delivered to the boat, but Kero is a lot cheaper.

It wouldn’t be a problem for a fuel boat to have both? Would it?

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6 minutes ago, Goliath said:

It wouldn’t be a problem for a fuel boat to have both? Would it?

Double the equipment (IBC's, pumps, dispensers, calibration charges) taking up twice the space for the same volume of sales.

Buying less 'red' so being charged more for smaller batches.

 

No, no problem for the purchaser - a lot of additional cost, and lost opportunity cost for the fuel-boat.

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3 minutes ago, Goliath said:

you could say if red becomes harder to find in marinas then a fuel boat will benefit by continuing to sell red and meet the demand that’ll still be out there. 

 

 

But there will only be a demand for 'red' if boaters fit a second tank (that cannot be connected to the engine) how much would that cost,  how many will do so, and where will they put one ?

 

The Governments Impact assessment :

 

Impact on individuals:

This measure will affect operators of diesel fuelled private pleasure craft who currently use red diesel for nonpropulsion use on board and for propulsion.  To ensure that red diesel is no longer used for propulsion, this measure will prohibit the use of red diesel unless the craft has a separate fuel tank.  Existing exceptions where the diesel is used exclusively for non-propulsion uses on board or the craft is residential but occasionally moves short distances to another permanent mooring will continue.  Commercial craft and private pleasure craft that has no ability for propulsion, such as a permanently moored houseboat, will also be allowed to continue to use red diesel.   
 
Costs of installing a separate tank (one for on-board non-propulsion use which could contain red diesel and another for white diesel used for propulsion) are estimated by representative bodies for pleasure craft at around £500.  However, many craft will not have the space for a separate tank and associated other equipment.   
 
As a result of this measure, operators of diesel powered private pleasure craft with only one tank will have to use full duty paid diesel 

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1 hour ago, Goliath said:

There’s always an option to have red delivered in a bowser if it’s a worthwhile delivery. 

It just takes a few boaters to get together to make the order. 

 

 

Delivery of a smallish order to several customers will take a lot longer than delivering the same quantity into a single tank. And add the potential pollution risk as the hose and nozzle are transferred from one boat to the next, and this begins to look like a pretty unattractive order for the supplier. Expect to pay a premium price if you can find a willing supplier.

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But there will only be a demand for 'red' if boaters fit a second tank (that cannot be connected to the engine) how much would that cost,  how many will do so, and where will they put one ?

 

The Governments Impact assessment :

 

Impact on individuals:

This measure will affect operators of diesel fuelled private pleasure craft who currently use red diesel for nonpropulsion use on board and for propulsion.  To ensure that red diesel is no longer used for propulsion, this measure will prohibit the use of red diesel unless the craft has a separate fuel tank.  Existing exceptions where the diesel is used exclusively for non-propulsion uses on board or the craft is residential but occasionally moves short distances to another permanent mooring will continue.  Commercial craft and private pleasure craft that has no ability for propulsion, such as a permanently moored houseboat, will also be allowed to continue to use red diesel.   
 
Costs of installing a separate tank (one for on-board non-propulsion use which could contain red diesel and another for white diesel used for propulsion) are estimated by representative bodies for pleasure craft at around £500.  However, many craft will not have the space for a separate tank and associated other equipment.   
 
As a result of this measure, operators of diesel powered private pleasure craft with only one tank will have to use full duty paid diesel 

Which says nothing about the impact on the fuel suppliers, and their consequent willingness to continue to supply pleasure craft.

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4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Not normally a problem to meet them somewhere they can get a trolley and off load a barrel - but 200 litres would obviously be a bit of a faff as you'd need to be virtually empty and have a couple of Jerry cans, but they do leave the barrel if you have storage space.

 

Just a thought - seems daft to be paying £1.50 (+) when you can get Kero at 60p ish in small loads

That's my plan for kero, I have two tanks so 200 litres a year should cover my needs easily 

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23 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

Delivery of a smallish order to several customers will take a lot longer than delivering the same quantity into a single tank. And add the potential pollution risk as the hose and nozzle are transferred from one boat to the next, and this begins to look like a pretty unattractive order for the supplier. Expect to pay a premium price if you can find a willing supplier.

Which says nothing about the impact on the fuel suppliers, and their consequent willingness to continue to supply pleasure craft.

I only quoted the 'personal impacts'

 

There are 28 pages in the document - its worth reading it all.

 

The business / fuel sellers impacts are :

 


Suppliers of diesel to marinas, ports and inland waterway refuelling stations Suppliers may be impacted if the policy change leads to their customers (operators of refuelling stations at marinas, ports and inland waterways) changing their fuel orders.  For example, they may request higher or lower amounts of red and white diesel.   
 
Operators of refuelling stations at marinas, ports and inland waterways Any operator selling controlled oils (including red diesel) will be part of the Registered Dealer in Controlled Oils (RDCO) scheme.  Currently they require private pleasure craft to estimate the proportion of red diesel they will use for propulsion when they sell them the fuel.  RDCOs are then required to collect the duty differential between white diesel and red diesel on this proportion of fuel and pass it on to HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC).  This measure will end this scheme and therefore the operators of refuelling stations will no longer be required to do this.  RDCOs will therefore see a reduction in their ongoing administrative burden.   
 
As private pleasure craft that refuel at refuelling stations will no longer be able to use red diesel for propulsion (unlike commercial craft using their stations) operators will need to consider whether to make both red and white diesel available at their refuelling stations which in many cases could involve significant infrastructure investment and disruption.   
 
One-off costs will include familiarisation with the new rules.  There are not expected to be any additional ongoing costs.   
 
Commercial craft The measure may impact on commercial craft (e.g. fishing boats and commercial cruisers) if in response to the implementation of this measure refuelling stations decide to sell only white diesel.  These craft could find it difficult to find red diesel even though they will still be legally allowed to use this fuel.  They would then have to refuel 

 

 

 

One consequence of this measure may be that marinas, ports and inland waterway refuelling stations may opt to supply only white diesel making it difficult for commercial craft to refuel with red diesel (which they will still be legally entitled to do).  
 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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I was talking to a canalside business in a city not too far from where we are moored and the proprietor claimed he sold more red land side than he did waterside. 

 

At the end of the day I think it will be a case of grin and bear it. At the moment we use around 300 litres a year and any alternatives aren't going to make a huge difference. It's just not worth humping the cans around.

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40 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

I was talking to a canalside business in a city not too far from where we are moored and the proprietor claimed he sold more red land side than he did waterside. 

 

At the end of the day I think it will be a case of grin and bear it. At the moment we use around 300 litres a year and any alternatives aren't going to make a huge difference. It's just not worth humping the cans around.

 

And, presumably, of that 300 litres much of it is already subject to full duty as 'propulsion' diesel, so the overall impact is less than would appear.

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5 hours ago, Cheshire cat said:

I was talking to a canalside business in a city not too far from where we are moored and the proprietor claimed he sold more red land side than he did waterside. 

 

At the end of the day I think it will be a case of grin and bear it. At the moment we use around 300 litres a year and any alternatives aren't going to make a huge difference. It's just not worth humping the cans around.

I am planning on CC'ing for 6 months of the year as a retirement plan starting in 2020 and having no experience was estimating 4 hrs. per day cruising say 25 days per month = 100 hrs. per month, would this seem excessive or normal practice to experienced boaters in similar ci8rcumstances.

We plan to move around the system and enjoy the canals as opposed to stay in the same place for any period of time and use the engine for heating water and generating electricity as we go.

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4 hours ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

I am planning on CC'ing for 6 months of the year as a retirement plan starting in 2020 and having no experience was estimating 4 hrs. per day cruising say 25 days per month = 100 hrs. per month, would this seem excessive or normal practice to experienced boaters in similar ci8rcumstances.

We plan to move around the system and enjoy the canals as opposed to stay in the same place for any period of time and use the engine for heating water and generating electricity as we go.

That sort of pattern (or even more hours per day) tends to be what  '1 week hire boaters' do to maximise the distance travelled and the experiences of locks etc.

 

In reality you will want to cruise from A-B (could be 4 hours or it could be 10 hours) then stay for a day or two investigating the castles, churches, pubs, museums, history etc etc.

Then move again for a few hours, then maybe stopping in a nice quiet scenic area in the 'middle of nowhere' for a few days, then move on replenish food water etc  and ………..

 

There is no-rush to get somewhere and by whizzing past places and not stopping you miss much of what is best about boating.

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Local road station white  diesel here is about £1.25 

I have been paying 99p this year for red at the 60/40 split  .

I would suggest budgeting for £1.35 from marinas for white diesel at today's prices.

I use the best part of 1000 litres per year so that would be a £350 increase for me.

 

I will find that money or if not I have the option to reduce hours. But it may be a big impact for some people.

 

I do find it annoying to be paying £350 in duty for boat fuel when that duty is intended to be for highway use. 

I would be happier if that duty paid should go to the C&RT

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That sort of pattern (or even more hours per day) tends to be what  '1 week hire boaters' do to maximise the distance travelled and the experiences of locks etc.

 

In reality you will want to cruise from A-B (could be 4 hours or it could be 10 hours) then stay for a day or two investigating the castles, churches, pubs, museums, history etc etc.

Then move again for a few hours, then maybe stopping in a nice quiet scenic area in the 'middle of nowhere' for a few days, then move on replenish food water etc  and ………..

 

There is no-rush to get somewhere and by whizzing past places and not stopping you miss much of what is best about boating.

Virtual greenie Alan, I think the same which is why my electric boat works for me. I just don't understand this have to cruise for 10 hours a day? There's so much to see just around the corner.  I suspect when people are paying £1.60 a litre distance traveled daily with reduce a lot 

 

11 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Local road station white  diesel here is about £1.25 

I have been paying 99p this year for red at the 60/40 split  .

I would suggest budgeting for £1.35 from marinas for white diesel at today's prices.

I use the best part of 1000 litres per year so that would be a £350 increase for me.

 

I will find that money or if not I have the option to reduce hours. But it may be a big impact for some people.

 

I do find it annoying to be paying £350 in duty for boat fuel when that duty is intended to be for highway use. 

I would be happier if that duty paid should go to the C&RT

 

 

 

Petrol powered boats have paid it for years 

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Virtual greenie Alan, I think the same which is why my electric boat works for me. I just don't understand this have to cruise for 10 hours a day? There's so much to see just around the corner.  I suspect when people are paying £1.60 a litre distance traveled daily with reduce a lot 

 

Bit of a straw man argument here: just because someone does not want to do an average of 10 hours per day does not mean that they have to do a maximum of two hours a day.

 

I would have said that a typical 4-6 hours a day is common. Can be either two half days or just one slightly longer half day. Quite relaxed with plenty of time to go shopping, do repairs, read a book or even visit a castle (although I don't recall too many close to canals!) Yes, there are plenty of things to go see, some less obvious - an OS Map is your friend - or even get a bus pass (whilst they last, despite Boris) to go slightly further. Some folk like to get a National Trust membership and see how many places they can find. But do check the area you intedn to cruise to see the range of options. Same with English Heritage or other privately owned properties.

 

Google is currently the go-to for planning public transport journeys that include both bus and train options - a quite remarkable database, but do then check with the transport provided for accuracy, although i have yet to stumble across problems.

 

Immediate post-retirement is about managing the transition from full-on energy levels. Don't just stop - too many people the stop altogether, but a gradually slower pace, still maintaining mental and physical abilities, is good.

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6 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Bit of a straw man argument here: just because someone does not want to do an average of 10 hours per day does not mean that they have to do a maximum of two hours a day.

 

I would have said that a typical 4-6 hours a day is common. Can be either two half days or just one slightly longer half day. Quite relaxed with plenty of time to go shopping, do repairs, read a book or even visit a castle (although I don't recall too many close to canals!) Yes, there are plenty of things to go see, some less obvious - an OS Map is your friend - or even get a bus pass (whilst they last, despite Boris) to go slightly further. Some folk like to get a National Trust membership and see how many places they can find. But do check the area you intedn to cruise to see the range of options. Same with English Heritage or other privately owned properties.

 

Google is currently the go-to for planning public transport journeys that include both bus and train options - a quite remarkable database, but do then check with the transport provided for accuracy, although i have yet to stumble across problems.

 

Immediate post-retirement is about managing the transition from full-on energy levels. Don't just stop - too many people the stop altogether, but a gradually slower pace, still maintaining mental and physical abilities, is good.

I normally do 3 to 4 hrs per day but occasionally I don't move, not often and occasionally do 8 hrs, again not often

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6 hours ago, peterboat said:

Virtual greenie Alan, I think the same which is why my electric boat works for me. I just don't understand this have to cruise for 10 hours a day? There's so much to see just around the corner.  I suspect when people are paying £1.60 a litre distance traveled daily with reduce a lot 

 

Petrol powered boats have paid it for years 

Greenie sir. Not to mention all of the other petrol powered off road pursuits in which I have participated, and of course a petrol gennie which is our lifeline. I often wonder how diesel came to have this unfair advantage for boats (though of course being human and a Northener, I have exploited it to the max!)

Edited by Guest
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1 hour ago, catweasel said:

Greenie sir. Not to mention all of the other petrol powered off road pursuits in which I have participated, and of course a petrol gennie which is our lifeline. I often wonder how diesel came to have this unfair advantage for boats (though of course being human and a Northener, I have exploited it to the max!)

Probably because, in the "off road" domain, the quantity of diesel used across that domain is significantly larger than the quantity of petrol. Not only boating, but construction, farming, etc etc. So a scheme of some kind was more pressing. Of course, if you subtly alter the definition from "off road" to "non-propulsion" then you're into the arena of needing to split out the energy in moving a vehicle/machine, vs the energy in doing work which doesn't involve its movement. Eg a tractor that is generating 300hp but only moving 0.5mph because its ploughing at the time (and causing significant soil relocation) vs the same tractor with the lifted implement going along at 15mph on the headland.

Edited by Paul C
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