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Impact of White diesel cost per month


Mick in Bangkok

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2 hours ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

I did not consider the current 60/40 rule, actually the increase will only be around 50% of the increased cost as boaters are already using some white fuel, is this correct?

 

Why would canal side sellers stop selling as there will still be the same supply and demand for boats in any case?

The problem for canal side vendors is that it will be hard for them to compete on price with supermarkets, so there will be some boaters that choose to drive to a supermarket and fill cans, so that will reduce the canal side demand.  Personally i hope this does not happen to any great extent, as it would be a right faff, particularly when our cruising and you have no access to a car, and the difficulty of storing cans on a boat.

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3 hours ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

I did not consider the current 60/40 rule, actually the increase will only be around 50% of the increased cost as boaters are already using some white fuel, is this correct?

 

Why would canal side sellers stop selling as there will still be the same supply and demand for boats in any case?

Close, but no cigar.

 

Boaters use 'Red' for both domestic and propulsion (it all goes into the same tank) but they have to make a declaration as to the % used for propulsion and the % used for domestic.

 

Duty is added to both, but at different rates (full duty on propulsion and rebated duty on domestic)

 

The "accepted with no questions" split / guidance issued by HMRCE is 60/40, but you can of course make any split you wish (although it gets complicated working out the tax rates with 10p tax on domestic and 57p tax on propulsion) so many fuel sellers don't allow anything different to 60/40

 

Currently 'Red' sold at the 60/40 rate (around £1.26 / litre) is about the same, or fractionally lower, than 'roadside' white diesel so there is no incentive to drive / buy / carry fuel from the service station and fill up your boat.

 

Just as a comparison, I buy red diesel for use at home (1000-2000 litres at a time) for around 50p-60p per litre

 

Because of the low volumes sold by canal based sellers (compared to the supermarkets) the canal sellers will be selling at a premium of £x (30p ?) which if you are buying 2 or 300 litres almost makes it worth while getting the car out, spending £10 in fuel in the car, (buying) 15 jerry cans, filling 15 jerry cans, carrying cans to boat and manually filling the boat.

 

Canal fuel sellers will see their sales decline and will 'get out of the business', causing more to go to service stations, causing more canal sellers to go out of business, causing ………………..

 

The impact on coastal leisure craft will be significant - whilst a NB will use 1.5 litres per hour, our Lumpy Water Cruiser used to use about 40 litres per hour at fast-cruise. Our current one uses 10 litres per hour at 5knts, and has 2,800 litre fuel tanks.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Close, but no cigar.

 

Boaters use 'Red' for both domestic and propulsion (it all goes into the same tank) but they have to make a declaration as to the % used for propulsion and the % used for domestic.

 

Duty is added to both, but at different rates (full duty on propulsion and rebated duty on domestic)

 

The "accepted with no questions" split / guidance issued by HMRCE is 60/40, but you can of course make any split you wish (although it gets complicated working out the tax rates with 10p tax on domestic and 57p tax on propulsion) so many fuel sellers don't allow anything different to 60/40

 

Currently 'Red' sold at the 60/40 rate (around £1.26 / litre) is about the same, or fractionally lower, than 'roadside' white diesel so there is no incentive to drive / buy / carry fuel from the service station and fill up your boat.

 

Just as a comparison, I buy red diesel for use at home (1000-2000 litres at a time) for around 50p-60p per litre

 

Because of the low volumes sold by canal based sellers (compared to the supermarkets) the canal sellers will be selling at a premium of £x (30p ?) which if you are buying 2 or 300 litres almost makes it worth while getting the car out, spending £10 in fuel in the car, (buying) 15 jerry cans, filling 15 jerry cans, carrying cans to boat and manually filling the boat.

 

Canal fuel sellers will see their sales decline and will 'get out of the business', causing more to go to service stations, causing more canal sellers to go out of business, causing ………………..

 

The impact on coastal leisure craft will be significant - whilst a NB will use 1.5 litres per hour, our Lumpy Water Cruiser used to use about 40 litres per hour at fast-cruise. Our current one uses 10 litres per hour at 5knts, and has 2,800 litre fuel tanks.

Some UK road based filling stations limit how much fuel you can put in jerry cans etc. Asda are one such example (at least in my home county.)
There are laws about how much containerised fuel you can carry in a vehicle (UK) but they are rather vague. I have read 60L but can't recall where. 
Edit: on second thoughts I think it was 60L of petroleum spirit. Might not apply to diesel.
 

Edited by Guest
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22 minutes ago, catweasel said:

Some UK road based filling stations limit how much fuel you can put in jerry cans etc. Asda are one such example (at least in my home county.)
There are laws about how much containerised fuel you can carry in a vehicle (UK) but they are rather vague. I have read 60L but can't recall where. 
Edit: on second thoughts I think it was 60L of petroleum spirit. Might not apply to diesel.
 

CARRIAGE OF PETROL & DIESEL FOR PRIVATE USE: 
 
The carriage of petrol or diesel by private individuals in a vehicle where the fuel is intended for their personal or domestic use, including their leisure or sporting activities, is exempt from the general restrictions on the carriage of dangerous goods by road. 
 
However, where fuel is carried in refillable containers filled by or for a private individual, the total quantity transported must not exceed 240 litres at a time and each individual container must not contain more than 60 litres. In addition, the individual must take measures to prevent the containers from leaking. 
 
Notwithstanding the general limit of 60 litres per container, it is worth noting that the individual local authority petroleum licence under which a filling station operates may impose a limit on the capacity of individual containers that may be filled with fuel at that filling station. In addition, filling station operators can apply their own limits on the capacity of individual containers that may be filled with fuel. 

 

https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/legal/Web Documents/Legal Leaflets/Clubs/Premises/CARRIAGE AND STORAGE OF PETROL AND DIESEL.pdf

 

 

There is, however, a much greater raft of legiskation for 'storage' (rather than carriage) of fuel - petrol in particular.

 

If you store petrol at home, or at a club/association or similar premises

What if I only store a small amount of petrol?

You can store up to 30 litres of petrol at home or at non-workplace premises without  informing your local Petroleum Enforcement Authority (PEA).

You can store it in:

  • suitable portable metal or plastic containers
  • one demountable fuel tank
  • a combination of the above as long as no more than 30 litres is kept

For these purposes 'premises' are as defined in the Health and Safety Work Act, etc. 1974 and includes, for example, motor vehicles, boats and aircraft

 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosion/petrol-storage-club-association.htm

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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4 hours ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

I did not consider the current 60/40 rule, actually the increase will only be around 50% of the increased cost as boaters are already using some white fuel, is this correct?

 

Why would canal side sellers stop selling as there will still be the same supply and demand for boats in any case?

Whilst hmrc has guidance of 60:40 last time I bought some red diesel from a canal side place he was writing my details in his book, so I had a look and saw one at 60% most were 25 to 55% with a couple at 10%.  So I suspect most liveaboards are going to see a big increase in their spend.

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20 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Whilst hmrc has guidance of 60:40 last time I bought some red diesel from a canal side place he was writing my details in his book, so I had a look and saw one at 60% most were 25 to 55% with a couple at 10%.  So I suspect most liveaboards are going to see a big increase in their spend.

I'm interested in the above suggestion, whilst I realise that liveaboards are 'on board 24/7' I would suggest that their cruising pattern is such that they are not moving 'hours every day' as many / most leisure boaters would do to maximise their time / distance so, as they are already paying full duty on the propulsion element there should be little or no impact.

 

The impact will come therefore on the use of 'domestic' where the use of 'white' will have an effect.

How many liveaboards are using 'much' diesel for heating / cooking ?

Is it not often said that the most (cost) effective heating is solid fuel ?

 

That leaves the subject of battery charging for non-frequent moovers (not meant in a derogatory sense - just that I wouldn't expect liveaboards to have the same need / urge to move every day)

If the engine is run (say) 3 hours every day the 'white' fuel will add about 80p per day to the fuel bill.

 

Apart from "its wrong, we have always had tax-free fuel" - I really do not see a big problem in the nominal additional costs.

 

If anyone has any actual figure of domestic usage It'd be interesting to actually look at the implications.

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

CARRIAGE OF PETROL & DIESEL FOR PRIVATE USE: 
 
The carriage of petrol or diesel by private individuals in a vehicle where the fuel is intended for their personal or domestic use, including their leisure or sporting activities, is exempt from the general restrictions on the carriage of dangerous goods by road. 
 
However, where fuel is carried in refillable containers filled by or for a private individual, the total quantity transported must not exceed 240 litres at a time and each individual container must not contain more than 60 litres. In addition, the individual must take measures to prevent the containers from leaking. 
 
Notwithstanding the general limit of 60 litres per container, it is worth noting that the individual local authority petroleum licence under which a filling station operates may impose a limit on the capacity of individual containers that may be filled with fuel at that filling station. In addition, filling station operators can apply their own limits on the capacity of individual containers that may be filled with fuel. 

 

https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/legal/Web Documents/Legal Leaflets/Clubs/Premises/CARRIAGE AND STORAGE OF PETROL AND DIESEL.pdf

 

 

There is, however, a much greater raft of legiskation for 'storage' (rather than carriage) of fuel - petrol in particular.

 

If you store petrol at home, or at a club/association or similar premises

What if I only store a small amount of petrol?

You can store up to 30 litres of petrol at home or at non-workplace premises without  informing your local Petroleum Enforcement Authority (PEA).

You can store it in:

  • suitable portable metal or plastic containers
  • one demountable fuel tank
  • a combination of the above as long as no more than 30 litres is kept

For these purposes 'premises' are as defined in the Health and Safety Work Act, etc. 1974 and includes, for example, motor vehicles, boats and aircraft

 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosion/petrol-storage-club-association.htm

Thanks for posting. This is much clearer than other articles/documents I have seen. 
Worth noting that filling stations in some areas may impose a limit. Certainly do where I used to live. 10L max, though nobody took any notice.
 

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'm interested in the above suggestion, whilst I realise that liveaboards are 'on board 24/7' I would suggest that their cruising pattern is such that they are not moving 'hours every day' as many / most leisure boaters would do to maximise their time / distance so, as they are already paying full duty on the propulsion element there should be little or no impact.

 

The impact will come therefore on the use of 'domestic' where the use of 'white' will have an effect.

How many liveaboards are using 'much' diesel for heating / cooking ?

Is it not often said that the most (cost) effective heating is solid fuel ?

 

That leaves the subject of battery charging for non-frequent moovers (not meant in a derogatory sense - just that I wouldn't expect liveaboards to have the same need / urge to move every day)

If the engine is run (say) 3 hours every day the 'white' fuel will add about 80p per day to the fuel bill.

 

Apart from "its wrong, we have always had tax-free fuel" - I really do not see a big problem in the nominal additional costs.

 

If anyone has any actual figure of domestic usage It'd be interesting to actually look at the implications.

What their true usage is doesn’t matter, at present they are buying diesel and declaring about 25% (or less) for propulsion, so they will see a big increase when moving to 100%.

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15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'm interested in the above suggestion, whilst I realise that liveaboards are 'on board 24/7' I would suggest that their cruising pattern is such that they are not moving 'hours every day' as many / most leisure boaters would do to maximise their time / distance so, as they are already paying full duty on the propulsion element there should be little or no impact.

 

The impact will come therefore on the use of 'domestic' where the use of 'white' will have an effect.

How many liveaboards are using 'much' diesel for heating / cooking ?

Is it not often said that the most (cost) effective heating is solid fuel ?

 

That leaves the subject of battery charging for non-frequent moovers (not meant in a derogatory sense - just that I wouldn't expect liveaboards to have the same need / urge to move every day)

If the engine is run (say) 3 hours every day the 'white' fuel will add about 80p per day to the fuel bill.

 

Apart from "its wrong, we have always had tax-free fuel" - I really do not see a big problem in the nominal additional costs.

 

If anyone has any actual figure of domestic usage It'd be interesting to actually look at the implications.

We will adjust our fuel usage accordingly, and use the petrol genny more than now (petrol often cheaper than DERV, genny uses less fuel than main engine also quieter,and much cheaper to replace/service than main engine.) May even convert to LPG but that is out to jury (how long for payback etc.) 
I think it is hard to argue the propulsion side, but I believe the split thing was fair, as I consider the main engine to be a CHP device, not just a mover. 
Fag packet calculations and taking into account we use the engine to heat water (for the time being) we got it to about another tenner a week based on our running time. Considering fitting diesel water/cabin heating in time to come plus a red tank. Again it will take a long time to recover the initial cost (if ever) but the boat will be more comfortable, so worth doing. 
Perhaps one day I will get a rebate on all the petrol I have used for off road activities, including boating, but I won't hold my breath ;)

Edited by Guest
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1 hour ago, Chewbacka said:

What their true usage is doesn’t matter, at present they are buying diesel and declaring about 25% (or less) for propulsion, so they will see a big increase when moving to 100%.

Are you suggesting that some have been 'getting away' with not paying the correct amount of duty ?

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27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Are you suggesting that some have been 'getting away' with not paying the correct amount of duty ?

If they are live aboard and not CC's and only move the boat to fill with diesel then they can at the moment claim 100% domestic, when the white comes in unless they have residential status then its all white. so a big difference

 

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3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

If they are live aboard and not CC's and only move the boat to fill with diesel then they can at the moment claim 100% domestic, when the white comes in unless they have residential status then its all white. so a big difference

 

 

Do you mean liveaboards living on a non-residential mooring ?

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1 hour ago, catweasel said:

We will adjust our fuel usage accordingly, and use the petrol genny more than now (petrol often cheaper than DERV, genny uses less fuel than main engine also quieter,and much cheaper to replace/service than main engine.) May even convert to LPG but that is out to jury (how long for payback etc.) 
I think it is hard to argue the propulsion side, but I believe the split thing was fair, as I consider the main engine to be a CHP device, not just a mover. 
Fag packet calculations and taking into account we use the engine to heat water (for the time being) we got it to about another tenner a week based on our running time. Considering fitting diesel water/cabin heating in time to come plus a red tank. Again it will take a long time to recover the initial cost (if ever) but the boat will be more comfortable, so worth doing. 
Perhaps one day I will get a rebate on all the petrol I have used for off road activities, including boating, but I won't hold my breath ;)

Is petrol cheaper than diesel? Yes, I know it is per litre but in terms of generating x amount of electricity?

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Are you suggesting that some have been 'getting away' with not paying the correct amount of duty ?

Are you suggesting that you have always paid 100% propulsion duty ?

The 60/40 split has , since it was introduced , been considered (by HMRC) to be  reasonable with no need to prove exactly how much was used for battery charging and water heating .

 

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1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

Is petrol cheaper than diesel? Yes, I know it is per litre but in terms of generating x amount of electricity?

Depends! A diesel genny will work out cheaper (at least my neighbour's does running on red) per Kw. The downside is the noise from our neighbours diesel genny is horrendous! However I wouldn't be able to generate electricity with the main engine, based on Asda diesel/petrol prices, as I can with the inverter genny (petrol.) Some propulsion engines have more efficient charging systems than mine (three alternators on one by us) and they may well be more efficient than my petrol genny. I could fit extra alts and fancy kit etc., but the money saved by not doing would pay for my petrol for a considerable time to come.
Also much cheaper to service/replace the 500 quid genny than a Vetus engine, which to me is an important consideration,and a cost that must be factored in. (based on DIY £30+ to change Vetus oil/filter, less than a tenner to change genny oil, both at same interval, not forgetting expensive fuel filters on marine engine.)
A diesel genny can legally be run on red of course, so comparing gennies a diesel is much cheaper to run (though much dearer to buy,heavier, bulkier and noisier.)
So,the short answer in my case is yes. 

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50 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Are you suggesting that you have always paid 100% propulsion duty ?

The 60/40 split has , since it was introduced , been considered (by HMRC) to be  reasonable with no need to prove exactly how much was used for battery charging and water heating .

 

I would estimate - yes.

 

I am suggesting that some of those claiming 70/30, 80/20 etc are probably not making a true declaration, I repeat the question - how many are using a reasonable proportion of diesel for domestic use when the majority have solid fuel / gas heating and gas cooking, and solar panels, which certainly in the Summer should minimise engine running for battery charging.

 

My heating is via eberspacher (1.05 litres per hour on High, 0.4 litres per hour on Low)

Over the last few years, given the time we have been sat in the marina for the odd day or two unable to have time to 'go out', I actually reckon our diesel declaration should have been 90% domestic, but you have to make your declaration 'in advance' so its all guesswork.

 

I have 2500 litres in my tanks for which I declared 60/40 as I was not allowed any other 'split'.

I could either declare 100% domestic, 100% propulsion or 60/40

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would estimate - yes.

 

I am suggesting that some of those claiming 70/30, 80/20 etc are probably not making a true declaration, I repeat the question - how many are using a reasonable proportion of diesel for domestic use when the majority have solid fuel / gas heating and gas cooking.

 

My heating is via eberspacher (1.05 litres per hour on High, 0.4 litres per hour on Low)

Over the last few years, given the time we have been sat in the marina for the odd day or two unable to have time to 'go out', I actually reckon our diesel declaration should have been 90% domestic, but you have to make your declaration 'in advance' so its all guesswork.

You could have declared 90% domestic and if it was wrong sent the money to HMRC afterwards

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1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

You could have declared 90% domestic and if it was wrong sent the money to HMRC afterwards

 

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I have 2500 litres in my tanks for which I declared 60/40 as I was not allowed any other 'split'.

I could either declare 100% domestic, 100% propulsion or 60/40

At the time we had planned on doing a fair bit of cruising, but 'life' got in the way.

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2 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Is petrol cheaper than diesel? Yes, I know it is per litre but in terms of generating x amount of electricity?

 

Given diesel cars go further on a litre of diesel than the equivalent petrol car on a litre of petrol, diesel appears to contain more energy than petrol.  

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17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would estimate - yes.

 

I am suggesting that some of those claiming 70/30, 80/20 etc are probably not making a true declaration, I repeat the question - how many are using a reasonable proportion of diesel for domestic use when the majority have solid fuel / gas heating and gas cooking, and solar panels, which certainly in the Summer should minimise engine running for battery charging.

I would not be in the least surprised if a significant number are under estimating their propulsion percentage.  

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Given diesel cars go further on a litre of diesel than the equivalent petrol car on a litre of petrol, diesel appears to contain more energy than petrol.  

 

It does, "The calorific value of diesel fuel is roughly 45.5 MJ/kg (megajoules per kilogram), slightly lower than petrol which is 45.8 MJ/kg. However, diesel fuel is denser than petrol and contains about 15% more energy by volume (roughly 36.9 MJ/litre compared to 33.7 MJ/litre).https://www.acea.be/news/article/differences-between-diesel-and-petrol

 

However don't forget that diesel engines have a higher themal efficiency than petrol engines (35-45% against 25-35%).

 

 

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6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

If anyone has any actual figure of domestic usage It'd be interesting to actually look at the implications.

I have a dedicated tank for heating, feeding a 15Kw oil fired boiler.

Living aboard last winter, I consumed about 100 Litres per month running the heating for two hours in the morning and four in the evening.

The system heats the boat (radiators) and  90 Litre unvented water cylinder.

 

I am able to buy red diesel for heating at 100% domestic so to run on white diesel will be a considerable increase in cost.

I could run on kerosene at approx. 70p per litre but I would have to factor in my cost for delivery.

 

It is all a bit "wait and see" at the moment.

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8 minutes ago, Captain Fizz said:

I have a dedicated tank for heating, feeding a 15Kw oil fired boiler.

Living aboard last winter, I consumed about 100 Litres per month running the heating for two hours in the morning and four in the evening.

The system heats the boat (radiators) and  90 Litre unvented water cylinder.

 

I am able to buy red diesel for heating at 100% domestic so to run on white diesel will be a considerable increase in cost.

I could run on kerosene at approx. 70p per litre but I would have to factor in my cost for delivery.

 

It is all a bit "wait and see" at the moment.

Thanks for that 'real life' example.

So, about 1/2 litre per hour. that seems very economical.

 

Surely when you get a quote for  Kero the price includes delivery (it does when I buy it) ?

Current price for 500 litres of Kero (delivered) is 50.9p / litre

 

You can even get smaller loads (barrels) delivered if you don't have a big tank.

 

https://www.crownoiluk.com/products/diesel-barrels/

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Thanks for that 'real life' example.

So, about 1/2 litre per hour. that seems very economical.

 

Surely when you get a quote for  Kero the price includes delivery (it does when I buy it) ?

Current price for 500 litres of Kero (delivered) is 50.9p / litre

 

You can even get smaller loads (barrels) delivered if you don't have a big tank.

 

https://www.crownoiluk.com/products/diesel-barrels/

It is having it delivered canalside that is likely to be the problem. That and my tank only being 150 litres.

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