Vetus M414 engine

[Neil2]

Looking at changing boats at the moment and I'm interested in a particular 57 foot NB which fits the bill in every respect except the power unit which wouldn't be my personal choice.  

 

It has the Vetus M414, can't remember what box it has but pretty sure it's hydraulic.  My concern is that the M414 isn't man enough for a 57 footer on rivers, and also the general negative gossip that surrounds Vetus engines. 

 

Would anyone like to reassure me, or alternatively, reinforce my concerns?  

 

 

[PaulJ]

Been on several narrowboats 50-60ft with that engine -find the gearbox to be a bit clunky when you change gears but otherwise no probs-give one some welly coming up the washlands on the Nene and it certainly wasnt sluggish. Nice yellow motors -just dont get any spares or service parts from Vetus ?

[Guest]

Have a vetus m4.14 in my 55ft boat. Went up the Trent with it earlier this year without a hitch although I was going with the current to be fair. Aside from that, and sticking oil in it from time to time, it keeps going without hesitation. Seems to have enough guts when it's needed to have.

[Neil2]

Thanks @PaulJ and @NB Caelmiri that is helpful.  

 

What I did like about the engine was the oil and diesel filters were very easy to get at unlike many engines when shoehorned in a trad.  But I don't recall seeing a primary filter/water seperator, just the one on the engine - is this normal or is there another filter somewhere? 

 

[bizzard]

Those Vetus Mitsubishi engines usually have a tiny fuel filter element in the base of the electric fuel pump, held in by a bayonet cap and spring, don't ignore it, check or change the filter regularly.

[dor]

Vetus engines are just as good as say Beta, being based on a solid Mitsubishi engine. However their Technodrive gearboxes are crap.  I changed mine to a PRM150.

Vetus parts are expensive, but so are parts for many other marinised engines.

The 414 should be good for a 57 ft on rivers.

[cuthound]

12 minutes ago, dor said:

Vetus engines are just as good as say Beta, being based on a solid Mitsubishi engine. However their Technodrive gearboxes are crap.  I changed mine to a PRM150.

Vetus parts are expensive, but so are parts for many other marinised engines.

The 414 should be good for a 57 ft on rivers.

 

Not in my experience.

 

Our first share boat had a Mitsubishi 414, marinised by Boatserve, which required replacement at a little over 10,000 hours.

 

In contrast the Turkish built BMC 1.8 in our second share boat lasted 13,500 hours, a d I have seen several examples of hired plant with Kubota engines (base engine for the Beta 43) with over 20,000 hours on them.

 

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Neil2 said:

I don't recall seeing a primary filter/water seperator, just the one on the engine - is this normal or is there another filter somewhere? 

That’s entirely down to the boat builder. My Vetus M3.10 didn’t have a primary filter/separator so I fitted one - a pretty simple job. As Biz points out, don’t forget to change the little filter in the fuel pump and keep a spare. 

[Guest]

I could be totally wrong as I am not familiar with the 414 series, but I seem to recall from another thread that the 414 has a different fuel pump to the later 415. (may still have a filter of course.) I seem to recall it is a mechanical pump?

Edited September 16, 2019 by Guest

[Guest]

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Not in my experience.

 

Our first share boat had a Mitsubishi 414, marinised by Boatserve, which required replacement at a little over 10,000 hours.

 

In contrast the Turkish built BMC 1.8 in our second share boat lasted 13,500 hours, a d I have seen several examples of hired plant with Kubota engines (base engine for the Beta 43) with over 20,000 hours on them.

 

10000 hrs would be nearly 500,000 miles if in my car so not too bad! 20,000 hrs is extremely good for a modern engine. The Vetus engines I have seen die young have done many hours at tickover charging batteries. Try never to leave ours at tickover for long periods, but if essential raise the revs to 1100 rpm. Engine heats up much quicker, and the standard alt is a lot more efficient at these revs.
Can't remember who now, but one poster on here had a vetus that had done something like 13,000 hrs and still going strong, despite admitting that he had used all sorts of different oils and filters in it.
The thing is with these Mitsu lumps is that they are too expensive to rebuild (gasket sets alone are a king's ransom.) Cheaper to buy a base engine from Diamond Diesels or similar, and swap the "Vetus" bits across.
My mate had a 414 for many years , and AFAIAW it is still going in the same boat on the Bridgewater. 

[cuthound]

7 minutes ago, catweasel said:

10000 hrs would be nearly 500,000 miles if in my car so not too bad! 20,000 hrs is extremely good for a modern engine. The Vetus engines I have seen die young have done many hours at tickover charging batteries. Try never to leave ours at tickover for long periods, but if essential raise the revs to 1100 rpm. Engine heats up much quicker, and the standard alt is a lot more efficient at these revs.
Can't remember who now, but one poster on here had a vetus that had done something like 13,000 hrs and still going strong, despite admitting that he had used all sorts of different oils and filters in it.
The thing is with these Mitsu lumps is that they are too expensive to rebuild (gasket sets alone are a king's ransom.) Cheaper to buy a base engine from Diamond Diesels or similar, and swap the "Vetus" bits across.
My mate had a 414 for many years , and AFAIAW it is still going in the same boat on the Bridgewater. 

 

Yes, I'm sure I  read somewhere that the average car in the UK averages 30mph over its life, so say 10,000 hours = at least 300,000 miles which is not too shabby.

 

Yes the reason why the Mitsubishi in our shareboat wasn't reconditioned, is that it was too expensive at around half the cost of a new engine, and only came with a 3 month guarantee, because of the high annual hours that share boats do. It was a similar tale with the BMC 1.8. Both got swapped for Beta 43's as the cost per share difference between reconditioning and replacing wasn't that much (about £250 against £500 IIRC).

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Yes, I'm sure I  read somewhere that the average car in the UK averages 30mph over its life, so say 10,000 hours = at least 300,000 miles which is not too shabby.

 

Yes the reason why the Mitsubishi in our shareboat wasn't reconditioned, is that it was too expensive at around half the cost of a new engine, and only came with a 3 month guarantee, because of the high annual hours that share boats do. It was a similar tale with the BMC 1.8. Both got swapped for Beta 43's as the cost per share difference between reconditioning and replacing wasn't that much (about £250 against £500 IIRC).

Pretty much what the guy who used to build Thornycroft engines said to me (Mitsu 4SL based.) New base engine every time if it was in need of major overhaul. He would overhaul if required.
Another alternative to the Vetus is to fit a blue one, which is called a Crafstman.  It appears from the outside to be identical to the 415 series but cheaper. I note that one well known Cheshire dealer who used to supply Vetus is now an agent for Craftsman engines. https://www.craftsmanmarine.com/propulsion/engines/

Edited September 16, 2019 by Guest

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Yes, I'm sure I  read somewhere that the average car in the UK averages 30mph over its life, so say 10,000 hours = at least 300,000 miles which is not too shabby.

 

Yes the reason why the Mitsubishi in our shareboat wasn't reconditioned, is that it was too expensive at around half the cost of a new engine, and only came with a 3 month guarantee, because of the high annual hours that share boats do. It was a similar tale with the BMC 1.8. Both got swapped for Beta 43's as the cost per share difference between reconditioning and replacing wasn't that much (about £250 against £500 IIRC).

Which also puts into context the oil change frequency , my engine is 250 hrs or at 40 mph 10,000 miles 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Which also puts into context the oil change frequency , my engine is 250 hrs or at 40 mph 10,000 miles 

Vetus say 100 hrs! (4000mls)
All other marinisers of the same base engine say 200 hrs.
Cahnging it every 100 hrs I would expect a Vetus to last a few lifetimes.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

35 minutes ago, catweasel said:

Vetus say 100 hrs! (4000mls)
All other marinisers of the same base engine say 200 hrs.
Cahnging it every 100 hrs I would expect a Vetus to last a few lifetimes.

The difference may well be down to the capacity of the oil sump. My Beta engine has a sump that holds 9.5 litres, with a 250 hour change interval. A neighbours Vetus that I used to do oil changes on had a sump that only held 4.5 litres or so and a 100 hour interval. I can't remember the model number, but a similar size to the Beta 43. Over double the capacity in the Beta, so over double the hours to get the same loading of nasties in the oil. Other marinisers of the base Mitsubishi may be fitting a higher capacity sump than Vetus.

 

Jen

[Bod]

We have an M414 in a 55ft trad Colecraft.  With PRM 120 gearbox.

Servicing access is good, change oil via dipstick hole, every 100 hours, Fuel filters, every 400 hrs, along with tappets. (0.25mm in/exh)

As Bizz say's do not forget the electric fuel pump filter, it may not be in an easily seen place!

Not done a lot of river work, but what we have done, has caused no concern.

Would have another.

 

Bod

[Guest]

On 16/09/2019 at 18:45, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The difference may well be down to the capacity of the oil sump. My Beta engine has a sump that holds 9.5 litres, with a 250 hour change interval. A neighbours Vetus that I used to do oil changes on had a sump that only held 4.5 litres or so and a 100 hour interval. I can't remember the model number, but a similar size to the Beta 43. Over double the capacity in the Beta, so over double the hours to get the same loading of nasties in the oil. Other marinisers of the base Mitsubishi may be fitting a higher capacity sump than Vetus.

 

Jen

Yes mine is just under 5L. The Thorny equivalent was also 5L but 200 hrs! Also the base engine (Mitsu 4SL/SL2) used in small tractors etc has 5L sump and 200Hr oil interval.
I do note that Vetus market their own brand oil and filters.
I agree though that some engines have a much bigger sump and can go longer between changes. Do they also use a larger filter I wonder? I know a larger filter is available that should theoretically fit the Vetus.

 

[Neil2]

That's all very informative guys, thanks.  

 

I have passed on this boat, at least for now, for reasons other than the engine.

[Nick Pritchard Boatserve]

As with most mechanical things its how its used and maintained!

The first Mitsubishi K4 engines used were the K4E derivative which featured a slightly larger bore than the K4D which Thorneycroft switched to after a few years production, the power output was slightly less but from Mitsubishi it was a little cheaper! I think Vetus also changed to using the 'D' engine for the same reasons.

The factor which was detrimental to the 'D' was that in the case of the 'E' there was a needle roller bearing in the small end of the con rod with the gudgeon pin fitted tightly into the piston as found in most engines of the day, with the 'D' build from Mitsubishi the gudgeon pin was pressed into the conrod and rotated in the piston. This meant the aluminium piston had plain bearing surfaces which needed good lubrication else wear would occur and eventually lead to a broken piston especially if the oil wasn't getting to the bearing surfaces.

The tendency on canal boats has been to use the hot cooling water from the engine block to heat the domestic water tank using a take off before the thermostat which always means the engine has to heat the water in the tank before it can reach its optimal operating temperature. That can take quite a while especially if the engine is idling in neutral! The low temperatures within the engine leads to the oil thickening from carbon deposits and therefore not getting where it should, This isn't a problem found just on Mitsubishis!

If the oil used in the engine was a 20w50 or such rather than the specified 10w30 (if I recall correctly) the lubrication of the small end fell short even quicker!

I tried convincing Mitsubishi, through Diamond Diesels that the 'E' build was superior but Thorneycroft bought more engines than Boatserve so I could only use the models brought into the UK.

[Bod]

Nick, as a K4E (Vetus M414) owner, when did this change take place?

 

Bod

 

[nick.pritchard]

Can’t recall tbh, 1990 or 91 possibly - look on the casting under the injector pump. I’m pretty sure Vetus would have changed build too.it’s cast into the block there. There may be a square plate which carries the manual stop lever if fitted and it’s below that.

[Bod]

 

Any idea of actual age from these photos, the boat is 1998-9 Colecraft, I assumed the engine was as old as the hull.

 

Bod

[nick.pritchard]

Could be, i don’t actually know when Vetus stopped using the K4. Try asking Vetus or even Diamond Diesels who may be able to help if you give them the engine serial which is stamped on the block around where the fuel enters the injector pump.