Goodbye Red Diesel?

[monkeyhanger]

I bought some diesel from a fuel boat yesterday, and the guy told me he had just received paperwork  from the government  forbiddding the use of red in pleasure craft. I thought that this was still being discussed pending consultation. Has anyone else got any information please?

[dmr]

3 minutes ago, monkeyhanger said:

I bought some diesel from a fuel boat yesterday, and the guy told me he had just received paperwork  from the government  forbiddding the use of red in pleasure craft. I thought that this was still being discussed pending consultation. Has anyone else got any information please?

Its already being decided and forced on us by the EEC, a good example with whats wrong with the EEC. It has to be done so they can monitor type of fuel usage as narrowboats cross the various internal European borders . The current government consultant is just about the details and exact timescale of the implementation.

 

...............Dave

[MtB]

All seems highly unlikely. Did he show you the paperwork?

 

Would he let you photograph it and post it up here?

 

 

[monkeyhanger]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

All seems highly unlikely. Did he show you the paperwork?

 

Would he let you photograph it and post it up here?

 

 

No and no. He talked about it. I obviously couldn't ask him to prove his statement, and I'm now 20 miles on so can't just nip back for it. I see your point however, and now I'd be interested to see it myself!

[Flyboy]

34 minutes ago, monkeyhanger said:

I bought some diesel from a fuel boat yesterday, and the guy told me he had just received paperwork  from the government  forbiddding the use of red in pleasure craft. I thought that this was still being discussed pending consultation. Has anyone else got any information please?

So presumably he refused to sell you red diesel.

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, monkeyhanger said:

No and no. He talked about it. I obviously couldn't ask him to prove his statement, and I'm now 20 miles on so can't just nip back for it. I see your point however, and now I'd be interested to see it myself!

 

Yes from what Dave says he is probably not making it up, but has perhaps not read it properly. It can't (or should not have) said the ban takes effect from now, but seeing the paperwork itself would be most interesting. 

 

I'll ask the fuel boat chap here next time I see him...

 

 

 

Just now, Flyboy said:

So presumably he refused to sell you red diesel.

 

Why would he do that?

 

Its using it in a narrow boat that appears to be banned, not flogging the stuff to the narrow boat owner!

 

 

[peterboat]

I honestly thought it had banned as well I can ask Shane he sells it so should know 

[Heartland]

If the sale of diesel is from one of the boats that sell bagged coal, fuel and logs, then it follows that the sale of red diesel to a market that requires it needs further clarification. Perhaps somebody on this site can clarify in what manner red diesel might be sold and if such boats should sell it at all. Our European Overlords from the Citadel in Brussels had made certain rules in the past for which red diesel may be used for heating and propulsion. This site has had various posts about the use of red diesel, could more invasive paperwork be another facet of what is happening?   

[peterboat]

55 minutes ago, Heartland said:

If the sale of diesel is from one of the boats that sell bagged coal, fuel and logs, then it follows that the sale of red diesel to a market that requires it needs further clarification. Perhaps somebody on this site can clarify in what manner red diesel might be sold and if such boats should sell it at all. Our European Overlords from the Citadel in Brussels had made certain rules in the past for which red diesel may be used for heating and propulsion. This site has had various posts about the use of red diesel, could more invasive paperwork be another facet of what is happening?   

The EU took us to court, HMRC's lost so the banning of its use for propulsion is ongoing from what I read

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, peterboat said:

The EU took us to court, HMRC's lost so the banning of its use for propulsion is ongoing from what I read

My understanding too, unless there has been some change? I bought red canalside a week ago, no problem.

[dmr]

I've chatted to three diesel sellers about this in the last couple of weeks.

One (land based) says many of his customers take it away in cans, presumably to be used on smallholdings etc, so he will continue to sell only red and boaters can decide what to do.

Another (boat) said he does not know what he will do.

A third (boat) said he will have to pay 10p more than supermarket prices to get white, so how can he then sell at a profit?, so will stop selling diesel.

 

Maybe CRT could reduce the Roving Trader surcharge and every boat could become a trader and use Red, then the EEC would then have to spend several years making up some new laws just to punish the UK.

 

.............Dave

 

[peterboat]

I have spoken to Shane, as yet he has nor received anything stopping him selling red diesel, so until then he will continue

[Sea Dog]

If we all start filling with white diesel right now, it'll be years before theres no trace of the dye in our tanks. Even if there's a will to enforce any red diesel ban, I can't see a prosecution being "beyond reasonable doubt" in the foreseeable future. I don't think it worth HMRC's effort, I don't think there's the will, and we're not taking our boats to Europe where they might fall foul. I think we're best keeping quiet so as not to force HMRC to act in an area they have so far steadfastly ignored.

[jonathanA]

Yep we should copy the frogs pay lip service and carry on as is .....

 

 

[dmr]

3 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

If we all start filling with white diesel right now, it'll be years before theres no trace of the dye in our tanks. Even if there's a will to enforce any red diesel ban, I can't see a prosecution being "beyond reasonable doubt" in the foreseeable future. I don't think it worth HMRC's effort, I don't think there's the will, and we're not taking our boats to Europe where they might fall foul. I think we're best keeping quiet so as not to force HMRC to act in an area they have so far steadfastly ignored.

I doubt they will be chasing boaters to dip our tanks, but they might have to inspect the diesel sellers, I suspect the EEC law says they might have to take reasonable steps to enforce their law, but then again based on my own experiences with EEC regulations there is usually a "get out clause" to allow the French to do as they please, the EEC only gets excited when the English try to do the same. The "not selling your self built boat in five years" is jut one example of one of these clauses. The self produced "design file" rather than independent testing of some electronic goods is another.

 

..............Dave

[monkeyhanger]

3 hours ago, Flyboy said:

So presumably he refused to sell you red diesel.

Its for my heating next winter.

 

[peterboat]

It will happen and it will be easy to do, they can tell the concentration by sampling, in the first instance all canal side sellers wont be able to buy it, after that it will gradually fizzle out as time goes on, Last time I bought it I had to sign a deceleration on what I was using it for and boats wasnt on the list

[bramley]

Incredable. 

 

how they plan to even start montioring this i do not know. Assume it will be down to the resellers rather than the boaters. I get red diesel for free as sell plant and machinery for a living so just take a bit from the machines. I wont be stopping that 

[Heartland]

I fear this is a worrying development for the boats that sell on our inland navigation. These are the last of the working boat traders in many ways. They face so many challenges these days. 

[Paul C]

Why should it be worrying? They just pass on the cost to their customer, in the same way they pass on the cost of red diesel they buy in, to their customers

[cuthound]

6 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Why should it be worrying? They just pass on the cost to their customer, in the same way they pass on the cost of red diesel they buy in, to their customers

 

Because lots of cheapskates will buy white diesel as their local supermarket filling station and transport it to the boat in containers, spilling lots of it into the canal when filling up their boat.

[Paul C]

Well possibly.....yes some, but I think a significant number will still buy from a canalside retailer or fuel boat unless its way too expensive. And I would assume they buy in 'bulk' but its a smaller bulk than eg supermarket petrol station wholesale.

2 hours ago, dmr said:

 

A third (boat) said he will have to pay 10p more than supermarket prices to get white, so how can he then sell at a profit?, so will stop selling diesel.

 

 

What's he paying for red wholesale currently? 

 

If they're offering white wholesale for 10p more than supermarket retail, then they're profiteering. He could get a bowser and go to the supermarket himself.....

[dmr]

10 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Because lots of cheapskates will buy white diesel as their local supermarket filling station and transport it to the boat in containers, spilling lots of it into the canal when filling up their boat.

 

But its not just cheapskates, it will be 30p more than the supermarkets and in winter I use half of it for heating/hot water/battery charging. In winter we travel less and keep a car with us so I will just keep some jerry cans in the car. I have just got myself a pump, hoses and fittings to make the job of getting it into the boat easy and spill-free.

 

...............Dave

[peterboat]

29 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

But its not just cheapskates, it will be 30p more than the supermarkets and in winter I use half of it for heating/hot water/battery charging. In winter we travel less and keep a car with us so I will just keep some jerry cans in the car. I have just got myself a pump, hoses and fittings to make the job of getting it into the boat easy and spill-free.

 

...............Dave

I use kero for the bubble stove and whispergen, I have two tanks and neither is for propulsion! still it means I can buy in bulk to reduce the price

[Lady M]

Some of the points raised were covered in the HMRC document associated with their consultation on implementation of the latest EU ruling.  However, as the consultation ended last week, I don't think the document is available any longer.

 

Currently, small purchases of red diesel (less than 2,000 litres I believe) are liable to VAT at the reduced rate of 5%.  All future purchases of white diesel will be liable to VAT at 20%.  For the small supplier who is not VAT registered this will indeed make a difference of around 10p to the cost per litre.

 

Registered roving traders will still be able to use red diesel when they are travelling for their business.  However, if they decide to go on a personal cruise, then they will be expected to clean their tank and change to white.  (I'm not sure how this will work in practice as they could just claim they were going 'the long way round' to the next event.  However, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in the number of roving traders licensed.)

 

The document referred to retailers needing to clean their tank when changing from red to white diesel, and all boaters too!  Existing penalties for road vehicles caught illicitly using red diesel will be extended to apply to boaters.

 

My own analysis of the situation agrees with the comments made that supermarket diesel will indeed by significantly cheaper than canalside diesel.  This will be mainly due to supermarkets paying a lower price for a bigger delivery and charging a much smaller mark up.  I wasn't convinced that canalside diesel selling will be viable for some current operators.