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Boating Newbie

First Boat-Hybrid or not?

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11 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I thought you said diesel was going to be banned?

Part of the Clean Air Strategy, which aims to cut air pollution across all sectors to make the UK "net zero" on greenhouse gases by 2050, the Plan sets out how the Government hopes to achieve 'zero emissions shipping'. But despite this wording, it doesn't just affect seagoing craft: the plan also covers inland shipping and recreational boats, and a Call for Evidence has been issued specifically for "domestic vessels and inland waterways".

This states clearly that "the expectation that the maritime sector will transition away from fossil fuels extends to all parts of the sector, including those vessels on inland waterways". And a Government announcement accompanying the launch states that "all new vessels for UK waters ordered from 2025 should be designed with zero-emission capable technologies" - which while it doesn't represent an outright ban on new diesels just yet, does at least suggest a move to hybrid or similar set-ups.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/clean-maritime-plan-maritime-2050-environment-route-map

 

By 2025 we expect that:
i. All vessels operating in UK waters are maximising the use of energy efficiency options. All new vessels being ordered for use in UK waters are being designed with zero emission propulsion capability. Zero emission commercial vessels are in operation in UK waters. 
ii. The UK is building clean maritime clusters focused on innovation and infrastructure associated with zero emission propulsion technologies, including bunkering of low or zero emission fuel. 
By 2035 we expect that: 
iii. The UK has built a number of clean maritime clusters. These combine infrastructure and innovation for the use of zero emission propulsion technologies. Low or zero emission marine fuel bunkering options are readily available across the UK. 
iv. The UK Ship Register is known as a global leader in clean shipping and the UK is home to a world-leading zero emissions maritime sector, with:
a. a strong UK export industry 
b. cutting-edge research and development activities 
c. the global centre for investment, insurance and legal services related to clean maritime growth.

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Part of the Clean Air Strategy, which aims to cut air pollution across all sectors to make the UK "net zero" on greenhouse gases by 2050, the Plan sets out how the Government hopes to achieve 'zero emissions shipping'. But despite this wording, it doesn't just affect seagoing craft: the plan also covers inland shipping and recreational boats, and a Call for Evidence has been issued specifically for "domestic vessels and inland waterways".

This states clearly that "the expectation that the maritime sector will transition away from fossil fuels extends to all parts of the sector, including those vessels on inland waterways". And a Government announcement accompanying the launch states that "all new vessels for UK waters ordered from 2025 should be designed with zero-emission capable technologies" - which while it doesn't represent an outright ban on new diesels just yet, does at least suggest a move to hybrid or similar set-ups.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/clean-maritime-plan-maritime-2050-environment-route-map

 

By 2025 we expect that:
i. All vessels operating in UK waters are maximising the use of energy efficiency options. All new vessels being ordered for use in UK waters are being designed with zero emission propulsion capability. Zero emission commercial vessels are in operation in UK waters. 
ii. The UK is building clean maritime clusters focused on innovation and infrastructure associated with zero emission propulsion technologies, including bunkering of low or zero emission fuel. 
By 2035 we expect that: 
iii. The UK has built a number of clean maritime clusters. These combine infrastructure and innovation for the use of zero emission propulsion technologies. Low or zero emission marine fuel bunkering options are readily available across the UK. 
iv. The UK Ship Register is known as a global leader in clean shipping and the UK is home to a world-leading zero emissions maritime sector, with:
a. a strong UK export industry 
b. cutting-edge research and development activities 
c. the global centre for investment, insurance and legal services related to clean maritime growth.

To be honest Alan I thought everybody had read the earlier thread about the problem,  clearly I was mistaken.  The hybrid system I was describing would more than likely work for a number of boats, however as usual like parliament they would rather fight against something but offer no solution! Now where have we seen that recently??

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1 minute ago, peterboat said:

To be honest Alan I thought everybody had read the earlier thread about the problem,  clearly I was mistaken.  The hybrid system I was describing would more than likely work for a number of boats, however as usual like parliament they would rather fight against something but offer no solution! Now where have we seen that recently??

 

But some folks have left the forum, new members have arrived and many others just didn't understand what was being discussed.

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28 minutes ago, peterboat said:

The hybrid system I was describing would more than likely work for a number of boats, however as usual like parliament they would rather fight against something but offer no solution!

The future will be all-electric boats, I think that’s obvious. But it won’t be with today’s technology and it’s unlikely to be in my lifetime. Hybrid, like all-electric boats today, is a non-starter for the vast majority of narrowboats. 

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13 minutes ago, WotEver said:

The future will be all-electric boats, I think that’s obvious. But it won’t be with today’s technology and it’s unlikely to be in my lifetime. Hybrid, like all-electric boats today, is a non-starter for the vast majority of narrowboats. 

I am sure that they will enjoy bowhauling them because times are changing rapidly 

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17 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I am sure that they will enjoy bowhauling them because times are changing rapidly 

Ain’t gonna happen

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33 minutes ago, WotEver said:

The future will be all-electric boats, I think that’s obvious

If you read thru' the Link I posted you will see that the Government does not forsee electric power as being a  major power source.

 

Research commissioned by the Government estimates that alternative fuels will play the most significant role in reducing emissions from UK shipping, with electric propulsion playing a smaller role relatively. In particular, this research suggests that electric propulsion options may be focused predominantly on smaller vessels that operate on shorter routes, such as ferry crossings. However, these conclusions are sensitive to several assumptions about, for instance, the capital costs of batteries.
 

 

Hydrogen. LNG & Ammonia will be the 3 main fuels.

 

Table 2: Potential hotspots in the UK for clean maritime fuel generation, storage or distribution


Location Activity

Teesside Tees Valley and North East Hydrogen Economic Study conducted, indicating Teesside as potential hub for hydrogen generation.

Liverpool-Manchester HyNet is a conceptual study by Cadent Gas to develop a practical and economic framework to produce and supply low carbon hydrogen to a core set of major industrial gas users in the North West. The hydrogen would be produced on Merseyside – with the captured carbon stored in the Irish Sea. The study also considers the potential for use in transport and blending hydrogen into the local gas Orkney Islands The HyDIME (Hydrogen Diesel Injection in a Marine Environment) project in Orkney will involve the design and integration of a hydrogen diesel dual fuel injection system on board an existing commercial ferry. The ferry operates between Kirkwall and the island of Shapinsay, and will use hydrogen produced from renewable energy by the Orkney-based European Marine Energy Centre (EMEC). The project is led by Ferguson Marine Engineering Ltd and has received funding from Innovate UK73
The HySeas III project is led by Ferguson Marine and project managed by the University of St Andrews, and aims to launch by 2020 the world’s first zero-emission, sea-going hydrogen-fuelled car and passenger ferry. The vessel is planned to operate in and around Orkney, and use hydrogen which is currently being produced on the islands from renewable energy. Western Isles The Scottish Western Isles Ferry Transport using Hydrogen (SWIFTH2) project has studied the possibility of developing new island wind power in the Scottish Western Isles for the purposes of producing ‘green’ hydrogen instead of grid-connected electricity. Aberdeen The predominant hub for the UK’s offshore oil & gas industry, Aberdeen presents an interesting vessel energy demand cluster, as well as an area with significant existing offshore engineering expertise. Oxfordshire Siemens is participating in an all electric ammonia synthesis and energy storage system demonstration programme at Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, near Oxford. The demonstrator is supported by Innovate UK. Collaborators include the University of Oxford, Cardiff University and the Science & Technology Facilities Council.

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you read thru' the Link I posted you will see that the Government does not forsee electric power as being a  major power source.

Yebbut... what does the gubbinment know?  Maybe they’re right. It’ll be interesting to see what pans out. 

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8 hours ago, IanD said:

Not necessarily. If you look at the efficiency of diesels vs. load they're still terrible under light loads, which is where they spend most of their time on the canals. Even allowing for the losses of generation/charging/discharging/motor a hybrid can be more efficient than a straight diesel *if* the load on the engine when generating is big enough, which means a big enough motor/generator to get the diesel engine up into the power region where it's efficient.

 

For example, if we take the power needed into the prop when cruising to be 3kW/4hp and a 7.5kW/10hp hybrid generator with 80% efficiency for the generate/charge/discharge/motor cycle, the boat uses the diesel at 14hp for 1/3 of the time and the electric motor at 4hp for 2/3 of the time, this uses less fuel than running the diesel continuously at 4hp (I have a spreadsheet at home which shows this). When you add up the diesel wasted when idling in locks the saving is even bigger. If there is some additional power from sources like solar (or plug-in charging) then this tips the cost even more.

 

However there's no way that the fuel saving (maybe 20 quid a week or so when cruising all day every day) will ever pay back the increased cost of the hybrid system, unless you cruise all day every day for more than ten years.

 

Whilst thermal efficiency increases with load i have yet to see any diesel than consumes less fuel with more load, and I have commissioned hundreds of them.

 

Admittedly these were in standby generators, where the engine has to run at a constant speed, so pumping losses are constant, but the diesel engines of canal boats operate over a very limited speed range compared to say the engines in motor vehicles.

Edited by cuthound
To unmangle the effects of autocorrect.

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Just now, cuthound said:

the diesel engines of canal boats operate over a very limited appearance compared to say the engines in motor vehicles.

Even though I never used the word ‘appearance’ ;) this is the point I’ve been making repeatedly. 

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7 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Even though I never used the word ‘appearance’ ;) this is the point I’ve been making repeatedly. 

 

I'm sure I wrote 'speed range'. Not sure how autocorrect managed to change that to 'appearance', even if my fat fingers had badly misspelt it. ?

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Hydrogen has been on the cusp for years and unlike batteries really isn't practical for many reasons chief of which is its just not safe in normal life.  No doubt when the first major explosion occurs it will die of for say another hundred years or so 

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Just now, Chewbacka said:

Back in the 1930s hydrogen was the gas for the Hindenburg.  That did not end well. 

I have a picture of a hydrogen car refueling station exploding ! That didn't end well. Jen in wellies has experienced hydrogen at work so she knows the risks 

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1 minute ago, peterboat said:

Jen in wellies has experienced hydrogen at work so she knows the risks 

Is that why she used to be called HydroJen?

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5 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Hydrogen has been on the cusp for years and unlike batteries really isn't practical for many reasons chief of which is its just not safe in normal life.  No doubt when the first major explosion occurs it will die of for say another hundred years or so 

Hydrogen doesn't just occur either; it needs making. Mostly it's from natural gas or petrochemical sources, but even the tiny bit made by electrolysis needs energy, and quite a lot of it... which ain't coming from hydrogen. 

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2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I have a picture of a hydrogen car refueling station exploding ! That didn't end well. Jen in wellies has experienced hydrogen at work so she knows the risks 

I also have seen a picture of an electric car on fire and the fire brigade couldn’t stop it burning.  Maybe the future technologies for transport are all going to become marginal for fire safety for the next few years while we rush ahead.

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14 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

I also have seen a picture of an electric car on fire and the fire brigade couldn’t stop it burning.  Maybe the future technologies for transport are all going to become marginal for fire safety for the next few years while we rush ahead.

In Italy? Yes I’ve seen that story. 

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28 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Hydrogen has been on the cusp for years and unlike batteries really isn't practical for many reasons chief of which is its just not safe in normal life.  No doubt when the first major explosion occurs it will die of for say another hundred years or so 

 

Most car manufacturers proposing to use hydrogen  intend to store it safely as a metal hydride, rather than a gas.

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/hydrogen-storage-alloys

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2 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

I'll bet making that stuff has mo environmental impact, eh?

 

I don't think anything man makes or does has no environmental impact.

 

Anyway what has Sir No Farrah got to do with it? ?

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23 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

I also have seen a picture of an electric car on fire and the fire brigade couldn’t stop it burning.  Maybe the future technologies for transport are all going to become marginal for fire safety for the next few years while we rush ahead.

Whereas every car having a tank with at least forty litres of incredible volatile petrol that can burn somewhere between a fire and an explosion is perfectly fine. When petrol cars go up, the fire brigades efforts are mostly to prevent it spreading to anything else. The car is usually a total loss.

 

Jen

  • Greenie 1

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3 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

I don't think anything man makes or does has no environmental impact.

 

Anyway what has Sir No Farrah got to do with it? ?

Mothing. Miether has Farrah Fawcett Najors. 

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3 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Mothing. Miether has Farrah Fawcett Najors. 

 

Between us we can actually write stuff that makes sense. Unfortunately it seems we are unable to do this individually. ?

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