Jump to content

First Boat-Hybrid or not?


Boating Newbie

Featured Posts

Nick its happened,  red diesel is history for propulsion on boats.

Right think about this if I am right the owners have cheap to operate quiet, clean boats. 

If you are wrong they have expensive failures which have to be retrofitted with electric drive and scrap nearly new diesel's!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Yet they do still require SOME more putting in. Therefore a hybrid is less efficient. 

Not necessarily. If you look at the efficiency of diesels vs. load they're still terrible under light loads, which is where they spend most of their time on the canals. Even allowing for the losses of generation/charging/discharging/motor a hybrid can be more efficient than a straight diesel *if* the load on the engine when generating is big enough, which means a big enough motor/generator to get the diesel engine up into the power region where it's efficient.

 

For example, if we take the power needed into the prop when cruising to be 3kW/4hp and a 7.5kW/10hp hybrid generator with 80% efficiency for the generate/charge/discharge/motor cycle, the boat uses the diesel at 14hp for 1/3 of the time and the electric motor at 4hp for 2/3 of the time, this uses less fuel than running the diesel continuously at 4hp (I have a spreadsheet at home which shows this). When you add up the diesel wasted when idling in locks the saving is even bigger. If there is some additional power from sources like solar (or plug-in charging) then this tips the cost even more.

 

However there's no way that the fuel saving (maybe 20 quid a week or so when cruising all day every day) will ever pay back the increased cost of the hybrid system, unless you cruise all day every day for more than ten years.

  • Greenie 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are hundreds of thousands of dirty old diesel road vehicles still around. The new regulations to clean them up were not retrospective even for road vehicles, and they didn't apply boats. Those rules are not going to suddenly be applied retrospectively to boats, and if they were they would equally apply to the diesel engine in hybrid systems. Such regulations are rarely retrospective and no-one is going create legislation which sees the vast majority of vessels tied up or scrapped before a viable replacement propulsion source has become mainstream. It certainly isn't clear that that's hybrid in boats.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

There are hundreds of thousands of dirty old diesel road vehicles still around. The new regulations to clean them up were not retrospective even for road vehicles, and they didn't apply boats. Those rules are not going to suddenly be applied retrospectively to boats, and if they were they would equally apply to the diesel engine in hybrid systems. Such regulations are rarely retrospective and no-one is going create legislation which sees the vast majority of vessels tied up or scrapped before a viable replacement propulsion source has become mainstream. It certainly isn't clear that that's hybrid in boats.

However, an older vehicle, or boat, with the "wrong" propulsion system can be banned from certain areas, or face a very high charge to enter. For example, London congestion and low emmision zones for diesel vehicles, or the upcoming Amsterdam diesel and petrol boat ban. Even if you boat mostly in the country you might one day face not being able to cruise through London, or shock horror, the BCN!

 

Jen

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

There are hundreds of thousands of dirty old diesel road vehicles still around. The new regulations to clean them up were not retrospective even for road vehicles, and they didn't apply boats. Those rules are not going to suddenly be applied retrospectively to boats, and if they were they would equally apply to the diesel engine in hybrid systems. Such regulations are rarely retrospective and no-one is going create legislation which sees the vast majority of vessels tied up or scrapped before a viable replacement propulsion source has become mainstream. It certainly isn't clear that that's hybrid in boats.

The low emission zones are retrospective though, thats the whole point of them

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Nick its happened,  red diesel is history for propulsion on boats.

Right think about this if I am right the owners have cheap to operate quiet, clean boats. 

If you are wrong they have expensive failures which have to be retrofitted with electric drive and scrap nearly new diesel's!

HMRC / UK government did lose the case against red diesel. And as things stand, you are right. However with all the Brexit uncertainty I don't think you can say it is a done deal. If we leave EU without a deal, UK government and HMRC can once again do what they like.

 

I commend your all-electric boat but I don't think a hybrid is in the same league at all. Worst of all worlds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

HMRC / UK government did lose the case against red diesel. And as things stand, you are right. However with all the Brexit uncertainty I don't think you can say it is a done deal. If we leave EU without a deal, UK government and HMRC can once again do what they like.

 

I commend your all-electric boat but I don't think a hybrid is in the same league at all. Worst of all worlds.

As far as I am aware the government have accepted the result of no red diesel for propulsion, but I could be wrong. I am with Ian on a Hybrid system it has its uses, however a full electric boat would be better with a lot of solar and water cooled fitted LPG powered gennie as backup, at the moment its the cleanest option and are very quiet, LPG can be delivered by bulk tanker to boats, you could also run the heating from it

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, peterboat said:

As far as I am aware the government have accepted the result of no red diesel for propulsion, but I could be wrong. I am with Ian on a Hybrid system it has its uses, however a full electric boat would be better with a lot of solar and water cooled fitted LPG powered gennie as backup, at the moment its the cleanest option and are very quiet, LPG can be delivered by bulk tanker to boats, you could also run the heating from it

Yes they have - but they are no acting on it instantly, for example HMRC ran a consultation about it recently. My suspicion (hope!) is that they are biding their time to see whether we remain under the control of the EU, or not. All or nearly all electric may well be the future with lithium batteries and solar, but as far as I am aware the hybrid offerings are for the time being based on Lead Acid batteries. I can see that hybrid might save some diesel in locks but the benefit of that depends on how much time one spends in locks vs cruising, and how long it takes to subsequently recharge the batteries (long time, if LA).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

 If we leave EU without a deal, UK government and HMRC can once again do what they like.

 

I think the UK would not wish to ignore the ruling of an international court, regardless of whether we are in the EU or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

Yes they have - but they are no acting on it instantly, for example HMRC ran a consultation about it recently. My suspicion (hope!) is that they are biding their time to see whether we remain under the control of the EU, or not. All or nearly all electric may well be the future with lithium batteries and solar, but as far as I am aware the hybrid offerings are for the time being based on Lead Acid batteries. I can see that hybrid might save some diesel in locks but the benefit of that depends on how much time one spends in locks vs cruising, and how long it takes to subsequently recharge the batteries (long time, if LA).

Please read what I posted. A hybrid doesn't just save diesel when in locks, when properly designed it also does so when cruising. And if the battery bank is big enough it should give enough range to get through any low-emission zones in cities, especially with plenty of solar for charging.

 

But it's a very high price to pay which in no way is got back by fuel savings.

 

However an electric + LPG generator solution as Peterboat suggested is also very expensive (about 10k just for the generator), and needs a much more powerful electric drive system than a parallel hybrid to cope with things like rivers (>30hp electric instead of <10hp for a parallel hybrid). You also need at least 30kWh of battery to get through a day's cruising assuming recharging every night, also expensive.

 

The only real solution that gets round the pollution problem is all-electric with solar *and lots of charging points* -- but the problem is installing and paying for these. Ought to be perfectly possible by selling the power at a decent mark-up, but it's a chicken-and-egg problem -- nobody will do this until there are enough customers (plug-in electric boats), but nobody will buy the boats until there are enough charging points... ?

Edited by IanD
  • Greenie 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I think the UK would not wish to ignore the ruling of an international court, regardless of whether we are in the EU or not.

It wasn’t an international court it was the E.U. court for E.U. countries.  So if we leave we are free to ignore it.  Same as other non E.U. countries such as the USA will pay it no attention.  If we stay, then sooner or later we will have to do it.  Though if hmrc really don’t want the trouble of managing it, they could make it the rule and then make zero effort to enforce it.  Let’s wait and see, should only be another couple of years before our rabble of a parliament actually make a decision.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, WotEver said:

Nick answered it in post #2. You waste energy by creating it with a diesel only to store it in batteries. A hybrid will, by its very nature, be less efficient than a simple diesel powered boat.

 

That may seem obvious but it isn't necessarily so. Here's a technical analysis for (non narrowboat) applications. https://www.passagemaker.com/technical/hybrid-science-part-1

 

Be clear: I'm not saying that this holds for narrowboats. I genuinely don't know.  What I am saying is that the obvious answer (you must waste energy if you run it to the propellor via battery storage) isn't necessarily true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I think the UK would not wish to ignore the ruling of an international court, regardless of whether we are in the EU or not.

I wasn't an international court - as in not some sort of "world court", it was an EU court with regard to the enforcement of EU regulations to which we, as members of the EU, are subject. Once (if) we are no longer in the EU, how could that be relevant?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

Please read what I posted. A hybrid doesn't just save diesel when in locks, when properly designed it also does so when cruising. And if the battery bank is big enough it should give enough range to get through any low-emission zones in cities, especially with plenty of solar for charging.

 

But it's a very high price to pay which in no way is got back by fuel savings.

 

However an electric + LPG generator solution as Peterboat suggested is also very expensive (about 10k just for the generator), and needs a much more powerful electric drive system than a parallel hybrid to cope with things like rivers (>30hp electric instead of <10hp for a parallel hybrid).

 

The only real solution that gets round the pollution problem is all-electric with solar *and lots of charging points* -- but the problem is installing and paying for these. Ought to be perfectly possible by selling the power at a decent mark-up, but it's a chicken-and-egg problem -- nobody will do this until there are enough customers (plug-in electric boats), but nobody will buy the boats until there are enough charging points... ?

Ian you are right but I cant be bothered anymore, Hybrids used correctly do save fuel and dramatically reduce emissions, most Narrowboats have engines far to big for cruising with anyway, so a reduction in diesel engine size plus the electric motor would give enough combined power to cope with rivers, a 3 to 1 gearbox would also increase engine speeds and maybe allow boat engines to run clean up equipment. In fact a 1 litre engine with turbo would be best, bit noisy but at least it would be clean and in cities etc quiet

14 minutes ago, Onionman said:

 

That may seem obvious but it isn't necessarily so. Here's a technical analysis for (non narrowboat) applications. https://www.passagemaker.com/technical/hybrid-science-part-1

 

Be clear: I'm not saying that this holds for narrowboats. I genuinely don't know.  What I am saying is that the obvious answer (you must waste energy if you run it to the propellor via battery storage) isn't necessarily true.

Good article virtual greeenie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

The low emission zones are retrospective though, thats the whole point of them

Indeed, but that is a sledgehammer to crack a much bigger nut. Anyway, surely we'll be able to offset our emissions by eating tofu and going on a yoghurt weaving course. Stopping boaters burning all sorts of dodgy stuff on our stoves would be a bigger environmental impact I'd suggest - I swear some of us are burning waterlogged badgers...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Onionman said:

I'm not saying that this holds for narrowboats. I genuinely don't know.

Considering that a narrowboat generally operates over a very narrow rev range and  that they’re usually over-propped then I doubt it very much. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Considering that a narrowboat generally operates over a very narrow rev range and  that they’re usually over-propped then I doubt it very much. 

Actually if you read the articles (they're both good) you'll find it agreed with what I said earlier; given the low power outputs and speed (and locks) in normal canal cruising a parallel hybrid will give significant fuel savings, even allowing for all the losses -- maybe not as much as the 50% in the article, my guesstimate was about half this.

 

It also says:

"The powerful generator and large battery pack of hybrid systems are enablers for more extravagant lifestyles. It is these lifestyle issues—lots of house power and substantially reduced engine run times, along with the concomitant silence and freedom from exhaust emissions—that will ensure the success of hybrid systems. The greater the house loads and the more extravagant the onboard lifestyle, the more attractive a hybrid becomes. Any efficiency gains will simply be a bonus."

 

In other words if you want a boat with a big battery bank and the means to keep it charged to run electrical appliances, a hybrid is a good solution because you'll already have paid for a large part of the electrical system, and you get silent locking/cruising as a bonus -- always assuming your pockets are deep enough to pay for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, IanD said:

Actually if you read the articles (they're both good) you'll find it agreed with what I said earlier; given the low power outputs and speed (and locks) in normal canal cruising a parallel hybrid will give significant fuel savings, even allowing for all the losses -- maybe not as much as the 50% in the article, my guesstimate was about half this.

 

It also says:

"The powerful generator and large battery pack of hybrid systems are enablers for more extravagant lifestyles. It is these lifestyle issues—lots of house power and substantially reduced engine run times, along with the concomitant silence and freedom from exhaust emissions—that will ensure the success of hybrid systems. The greater the house loads and the more extravagant the onboard lifestyle, the more attractive a hybrid becomes. Any efficiency gains will simply be a bonus."

 

In other words if you want a boat with a big battery bank and the means to keep it charged to run electrical appliances, a hybrid is a good solution because you'll already have paid for a large part of the electrical system, and you get silent locking/cruising as a bonus -- always assuming your pockets are deep enough to pay for it.

Certainly if fuel efficiency is your major criteria, a small engine running harder is a good idea. Until you do what we did a few weeks ago and go from Keady to Torksey on the tidal trent, running our Beta 43 fairly hard all the way!

 

Regarding the point about general electrical consumption well we already have a large amount of electrical generating power (around 5.5kW) on a standard Beta 43 with Travelpower. If the propulsion and the domestic batteries are one and the same, I can see that ending in tears, or at least a fight between energy for propulsion and energy for domestic consumption. Whatever battery size you need to accommodate domestic loads, you will need a much bigger one to accommodate those domestic loads plus propulsion loads.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Actually if you read the articles (they're both good) you'll find it agreed with what I said earlier; given the low power outputs and speed (and locks) in normal canal cruising a parallel hybrid will give significant fuel savings, even allowing for all the losses -- maybe not as much as the 50% in the article, my guesstimate was about half this.

The article never mentions narrowboats. The article uses a speed range of 3 to 8 knots. A narrowboat generally travels at between 2.5 and 3 knots, which is a very narrow band as I’ve already stated, and the propellor is usually over-sized. So unlike the article a narrowboat has the engine and prop combination designed for up to a maximum of about 3.5 knots. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Actually if you read the articles (they're both good) you'll find it agreed with what I said earlier; given the low power outputs and speed (and locks) in normal canal cruising a parallel hybrid will give significant fuel savings, even allowing for all the losses -- maybe not as much as the 50% in the article, my guesstimate was about half this.

 

It also says:

"The powerful generator and large battery pack of hybrid systems are enablers for more extravagant lifestyles. It is these lifestyle issues—lots of house power and substantially reduced engine run times, along with the concomitant silence and freedom from exhaust emissions—that will ensure the success of hybrid systems. The greater the house loads and the more extravagant the onboard lifestyle, the more attractive a hybrid becomes. Any efficiency gains will simply be a bonus."

 

In other words if you want a boat with a big battery bank and the means to keep it charged to run electrical appliances, a hybrid is a good solution because you'll already have paid for a large part of the electrical system, and you get silent locking/cruising as a bonus -- always assuming your pockets are deep enough to pay for it.

Virtual greenie Ian, as I said ideally small turbocharged diesel running high revs, this will allow full euro 6 d temp equipment to be fitted.  Then through towns and cities electric drive perifik apart from the huge costs 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Virtual greenie Ian, as I said ideally small turbocharged diesel running high revs, this will allow full euro 6 d temp equipment to be fitted.  Then through towns and cities electric drive perifik apart from the huge costs 

I thought you said diesel was going to be banned?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.