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How to ask whether liveaboards are accepted...


NB DW

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5 hours ago, NB DW said:

Just out of interest, who would I be defrauding?

You would not be paying council tax, which should be charged on most residential moorings. You would probably be in breach of planning regulations. If you don't declare your true residential address for car insurance then you won't be covered. If the marina has full residential berths then will technically be underpaying mooring fees.

 

I'm not judging, just answering the question.

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I have left 2 marinas (both so called "non residential") because of the antics of the "liveaboards". In one marina they openly operated as a mafia without redress and the marina owners refused to take any action even when presented with evidence of blatant intimidation. Where does this leave us genuine leisure moorers? - well as one "liveaboard" told me less than politely, "don't like it -  time to ship out". I am total agreement with Mike on the Wey post , i.e.  - "You would not be paying council tax, which should be charged on most residential moorings. You would probably be in breach of planning regulations. If you don't declare your true residential address for car insurance then you won't be covered. If the marina has full residential berths then will technically be underpaying mooring fees."  Stay below the radar, don't make me laugh !

 

Edited by chrisnw
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I'm not certain not paying council tax constitutes fraud but happy to be proved otherwise.  And I don't mean that flipantly. 

 

I've read a number of threads on here from members in a similar situation re. car insurance.  Some, not all, insurers are more understanding of the situation and are quite happy so long as you put in the true location as to where the car's going to be kept.

 

To be honest they're not the stumbling blocks.  It's more around not having a legitimate residential address and the problems it might bring about in my situation.

 

I have the consent to let my property.  However, when it comes to remortgaging time I'll no doubt be asked to provide proof of X, Y and Z. And that's where there's potentially a problem. Am I going to be classed as no fixed abode?  I'd have thought so since I can't use the marina's address.  If I were to change the address for banking etc to a family member's address is it passable? Even in doing this I won't have a utility or council tax bill in my name for said address, so maybe it's pointless?  It's easy to get a bill, i.e. mobile phone bill, to show an address but that doesn't actually prove you live there.  What lenders look for is a council tax or utility bill with said address, and without it, looks like I'm knackered.  It'd doubtful a lender would entertain lending tens of thousands to somebody without a real residency and that's essentially what re-mortgaging is.  Or indeed any type of credit or loan.

I'm conscious I'm heading down a path that'd lead to big problems. I'd much rather front the problem now rather than bury my head and not rest easy for the next few years.
 

 

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25 minutes ago, NB DW said:

I'm not certain not paying council tax constitutes fraud

In simple terms, fraud is a misrepresentation or deception which results in personal gain. If you are resident in a qualifying property or on a qualifying piece of land, then the basic premise is that you are liable for council tax. Not admitting such residence would be the misrepresentation. 

25 minutes ago, NB DW said:

What lenders look for is a council tax or utility bill with said address

They look for "financial footprints" at an address to which you are linked - e.g. bank accounts, credit cards, council tax, utilities etc in conjunction with electoral roll registration. Credit scoring varies from lender to lender, but they do like an identifiable residential history with no gaps.

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Thanks.

 

Problem is I'd likely to have to change my address with banks and the like but have nothing to give as a replacement.  Keeping them the same or if I were to use my rented out property address in the future isn't being genuine.

 

I suppose it depends on what constitutes an address in the eyes of a creditor.  Somewhere I own?  Somewhere I live?  Sounds like a can of worms.

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In 'bonafide' residential marinas, you will almost certainly end up paying Council Tax Band  "A," but you will be able to use the marina as your permanent address. In the Nantwich area, only Venetian Marina has residential moorings (to my knowledge), on the Llangollen Canal, Whixall may also be worth a try.

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If it were me... I'd ask a friend to visit the marina in question and ask directly if they allow liveaboards. Also, if possible, ask them to have a little wander around the boats asking pertinent questions to whoever is about. Once armed with this information, if you decide to use the marina in question, you can apply in the 'correct' way.

 

Regarding the re mortgage. While most (all?) mortgages require the mortgage holder to be living in the property they are unlikely to know if they aren't. Their concern is, if repayments stop, it would be more difficult for them to evict tenants, who hold statutory rights that homeowners don't. If you're confident you can make the repayments now and in the future it's your choice whether you continue with the existing mortgage, or re mortgage with a buy to let policy. If you chose not to tell them you would be breaching their terms and conditions. If they found out, they would likely issue an order for the sum to be repaid which would more than likely mean you'd have to sell the house. However, it would be unlikely to be seen as a criminal fraud, I would think.

 

Regarding car insurance: You may be able to use the marina address for this purpose. Ask around when you get there or maybe before you get there. If not, there remains the option of using a different address, a relative's perhaps. While this would more than likely result in a claim from you being rejected, say, if the car was nicked from the marina overnight it likely would not invalidate the third party element of the cover. The most important part perhaps, and the part that's required, legally.     

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10 hours ago, NB DW said:

.

 

Problem is I'd likely to have to change my address with banks and the like but have nothing to give as a replacement.

You mentioned that you are in your 30s. Are your parents still alive? If so, perhaps you could use their address.

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11 minutes ago, Athy said:

You mentioned that you are in your 30s. Are your parents still alive? If so, perhaps you could use their address.

Just a 'Heads-Up'

 

If you use the address of a 'single' person who is getting a reduction in Council Tax due to 'single occupancy' It can (will) affect their claim, as there will now be two people 'living' at the property.

 

The whole 'living under the radar' is a risk.

If you can (and it would appear that the OP wishes to) it is far easier and less stress to be open, honest, and take a residential mooring / berth.

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11 hours ago, NB DW said:

I'm not certain not paying council tax constitutes fraud but happy to be proved otherwise.  And I don't mean that flipantly. 

 

I've read a number of threads on here from members in a similar situation re. car insurance.  Some, not all, insurers are more understanding of the situation and are quite happy so long as you put in the true location as to where the car's going to be kept.

 

To be honest they're not the stumbling blocks.  It's more around not having a legitimate residential address and the problems it might bring about in my situation.

 

I have the consent to let my property.  However, when it comes to remortgaging time I'll no doubt be asked to provide proof of X, Y and Z. And that's where there's potentially a problem. Am I going to be classed as no fixed abode?  I'd have thought so since I can't use the marina's address.  If I were to change the address for banking etc to a family member's address is it passable? Even in doing this I won't have a utility or council tax bill in my name for said address, so maybe it's pointless?  It's easy to get a bill, i.e. mobile phone bill, to show an address but that doesn't actually prove you live there.  What lenders look for is a council tax or utility bill with said address, and without it, looks like I'm knackered.  It'd doubtful a lender would entertain lending tens of thousands to somebody without a real residency and that's essentially what re-mortgaging is.  Or indeed any type of credit or loan.

I'm conscious I'm heading down a path that'd lead to big problems. I'd much rather front the problem now rather than bury my head and not rest easy for the next few years.
 

 

The 'fraud' lies in the supply of false information (about true place of residence) in order to obtain a supply (of a mooring) knowing that a condition of that mooring is the existence of a 'permanent'  residence elsewhere. It would be a matter of obtaining services on false pretences and also (potentially) putting the marina at risk of any penalties associated with not keeping to its conditions of existence. In particular, it may well create issues around council tax and what the marina is due to pay to the council.

22 minutes ago, Athy said:

You mentioned that you are in your 30s. Are your parents still alive? If so, perhaps you could use their address.

Cases where you are supplying a correspondence address are different as that does not require you to state something that is not true.

 

But other boaters might wish to note that some important documentation may then not reach you within due time. We have just returned home after four weeks away and some important reminders of things to do within two weeks arrived in that period.

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Thanks for the replies.

 

My parents are alive but don't live together.  Unfortunately my mum has dementia but still lives at home but with a lot of external support - I don't think it's right or ethical to start associating my name with the property.  It'd potentially screw up benefits and direct payments, and she's also exempt from council tax payments.  I can't use my dad's either, he also gets single occupancy discount.

 

It's not so much the delay in getting mail that bothers me, more the problems of not having a 'proper' address throws up.  Other than having an address at a residential mooring I can't see how I can get around it.  I've downloaded a number of mortgage application forms and it's the usual story when it comes to documentation; utility bills, council tax bills etc.  Basically, stuff which clearly links you to an address.

 

Tempted to take on a lodger, charging a little more, on the basis I'd never be in the place and on the boat instead.  This would definitely overcome all of the above.

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On 08/09/2019 at 10:28, NB DW said:

No issue with providing that at the moment; mortgage, utilities etc all at this address.  I'm more thinking a year or two down the line.

Don't forget to tell the mortgage people and insurance that you are renting out your house.

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12 hours ago, NB DW said:

I can't use my dad's either, he also gets single occupancy discount.

You could always use your dad’s address and offer to pay the difference in CT bills if necessary. It depends on the LA. We used our daughter’s address in Burton for some years, she told the council office but they let her still have her single occupancy discount.

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5 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

I think it might have been said before but the single occupancy council tax discount is based on how many people live at the property, not how many people use it as a postal address.

It's up to you to prove that you don't live there, As far as the local council is concerned, if your post is delivered to the address, therefore you must live there.

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7 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

I think it might have been said before but the single occupancy council tax discount is based on how many people live at the property, not how many people use it as a postal address.

But if you tell one person you do not live there, it is asking for trouble if you then claim that you do live there to someone else.

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7 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

I think it might have been said before but the single occupancy council tax discount is based on how many people live at the property, not how many people use it as a postal address.

 

So this leads us straight into the definition of 'living somewhere'.

 

What determines where I "live"? 

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Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

So this leads us straight into the definition of 'living somewhere'.

 

What determines where I "live"? 

My understanding (from various sources) would be utility / CT bills at that address and in your name.

 

A quick Google suggests :

 

What type of Proof of address documents are accepted?

List of acceptable documents:

  • Household utility bill (eg gas, electric, water or fixed line telephone but not a mobile phone bill). It must be no more than three months old and show your name and current address
  • Utility bill from an EEA-based utility provider (less than 3 months old)
  • Current UK driving license (but only if not used for the name evidence)
  • Old style driving licence. Provisional licences are not acceptable as proof of address
  • Bank, building society or credit card statement. It must be no more than three months old and show your name and current address
  • Statement from an EEA-based bank (less than 3 months old)
  • Local authority tax bill (e.g. council tax) valid for the current year
  • Local authority rent book
  • Original mortgage statement from a recognised lender issued for the last full year
  • Solicitor’s letter confirming recent house purchase or land registry confirmation (in this case, proof of previous address will also be needed)
  • HM Revenue & Customs (Inland Revenue) tax document e.g. tax assessment, statement of account, notice of coding. It must contain your full name and current address. P45s and P60s are not acceptable
  • Original notification letter from the relevant benefits agency confirming the right to benefits or state pension
  • Northern Ireland Voter’s Card showing your current address
  • Electoral Register entry
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8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

My understanding (from various sources) would be utility / CT bills at that address and in your name.

 

A quick Google suggests :

 

What type of Proof of address documents are accepted?

List of acceptable documents:

  • Household utility bill (eg gas, electric, water or fixed line telephone but not a mobile phone bill). It must be no more than three months old and show your name and current address
  • Utility bill from an EEA-based utility provider (less than 3 months old)
  • Current UK driving license (but only if not used for the name evidence)
  • Old style driving licence. Provisional licences are not acceptable as proof of address
  • Bank, building society or credit card statement. It must be no more than three months old and show your name and current address
  • Statement from an EEA-based bank (less than 3 months old)
  • Local authority tax bill (e.g. council tax) valid for the current year
  • Local authority rent book
  • Original mortgage statement from a recognised lender issued for the last full year
  • Solicitor’s letter confirming recent house purchase or land registry confirmation (in this case, proof of previous address will also be needed)
  • HM Revenue & Customs (Inland Revenue) tax document e.g. tax assessment, statement of account, notice of coding. It must contain your full name and current address. P45s and P60s are not acceptable
  • Original notification letter from the relevant benefits agency confirming the right to benefits or state pension
  • Northern Ireland Voter’s Card showing your current address
  • Electoral Register entry

 

 

So, if my accommodation address loses their 25% single person allowance (i.e. the point under discussion), you are saying me failing to produce any of the above gets the allowance back for them?

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

So, if my accommodation address loses their 25% single person allowance (i.e. the point under discussion), you are saying me failing to produce any of the above gets the allowance back for them?

 

 

I'm not saying anything of the sort - you asked what was the definition of 'living somewhere'.

Not having one of those 'proof of residence' is not indicative that you do not live there, having one (or more) is indicative that you live there.

 

Just as an aside - 'failing to produce' doesn't mean that the document doesn't exist, it just means you have not produced it.

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10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'm not saying anything of the sort - you asked what was the definition of 'living somewhere'.

Not having one of those 'proof of residence' is not indicative that you do not live there, having one (or more) is indicative that you live there.

 

Just as an aside - 'failing to produce' doesn't mean that the document doesn't exist, it just means you have not produced it.

 

 

You clearly didn't read the post I quoted when you quoted mine. 

 

Context is everything.

 

How would they prove I lived somewhere when I claimed I didn't?

 

 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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