What costs would we expect if we bought a live aboard

[Bill The Bus]

May have asked this question before but we are close now to it being a possibility.

 

I know there are so many costs that cannot be predicted so looking as an average. We have a small pension maturing next year and are considering taking some time out ready for retirement in a few years. Would like to spend a year, not the winter, aboard a boat and have been recommended it's cheaper to buy then sell when we finished than hire for a long term. We may enjoy it that much we can become full timers. We would probably have around £30k, maybe a little more, so should find something reasonable so what extra costs would we be looking at. Would be travelling so no mooring fees but would obviously need water and pump outs, fuel etc. Also what kind of depreciation should we expect if using a broker as we have no knowledge other than a couple of times renting. Any advice or ideas would be welcomed. Thanks Bill

[LadyG]

Interesting question, which I am unqualified to answer, others will be along.

Off the cuff, I think I would gp for a smaller boat. ie one where the pullman dinette has to be made in to a bed.

A shorter boat is cheaper to licence, and you will probably need to use a marina occasionally. It will be younger than a longer  boat. 

You may end up with a cassette rather than a pumpout.

Edited September 6, 2019 by LadyG

[Bill The Bus]

Thanks Lady G. We lived in a touring caravan for 12 months, including the winter so no problems with suggestions however would prefer a separate bedroom as I watch tv and better half reads. Also how many places are around to empty a cassette? 

[cuthound]

3 minutes ago, Bill The Bus said:

Thanks Lady G. We lived in a touring caravan for 12 months, including the winter so no problems with suggestions however would prefer a separate bedroom as I watch tv and better half reads. Also how many places are around to empty a cassette? 

 

Very roughly, there is one every 4 hours cruising. However there are some parts of the system where they are further apart, or in London for example many users chasing a handful of Elsan points.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Bill The Bus said:

Also how many places are around to empty a cassette? 

It varies around the country but I would suggest you would struggle not to pass at least one every day across much of the country.

 

Lady G suggesting 'you might end up with a cassette' is just her way of saying that you could well end up with the best system available (cassette)

Who wants to float around with a huge tank with 6 months worth of sewage sloshing about under the bed ? (Pump-Out)

[LadyG]

49 minutes ago, Bill The Bus said:

Thanks Lady G. We lived in a touring caravan for 12 months, including the winter so no problems with suggestions however would prefer a separate bedroom as I watch tv and better half reads. Also how many places are around to empty a cassette? 

The problem is that you're budget  is so tight if you want to liveaboard, it will be "older"  was thinking you could compromise for a short term. Or aim to keep the boat long term, and accept higher maintenance ongoing from day 1.

Remember,the broker is acting for the seller

A  good surveyor is acting in your best interests, but he is not infallible. There is always a risk when buying a boat. 

PS I watch TV on my phone and my laptop in bed! I think you get special headphones from your dentist  

Edited September 6, 2019 by LadyG

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Bill The Bus said:

Also what kind of depreciation should we expect if using a broker

 

I'm not sure why you think using a broker might affect depreciation. Broadly speaking I'd say a boat depreciates at about 30% a year 

 

I'd say the value of a well maintained boat falls by about 10% a year in real terms, broadly speaking, offset by inflation. Maintenance costs are very lumpy but just as significant. With you doing the easy stuff and paying other for the difficult (e.g. engine rebuild), an average of around £2k a year would be a realistic figure to expect. Some years you'll shell out £300, other years £10k. If you don't maintain the boat properly, expect the depreciation to be higher by the amount you fail to spend on maintenance.

 

Have a search. There are loads of threads covering this stuff in fine detail, the most recent being only a few days old. 

 

 

[blackrose]

3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'd say the value of a well maintained boat falls by about 10% a year in real terms, broadly speaking, offset by inflation. 

 

How does this work exactly? I thought real terms depreciation already accounted for inflation but then you say "offset by inflation"? Does inflation even affect the second hand boat market or are we talking about inflation affecting everything else? Economics was never my strong point.

[blackrose]

8 hours ago, Bill The Bus said:

 

Would like to spend a year, not the winter, aboard a boat and have been recommended it's cheaper to buy then sell when we finished than hire for a long term. We may enjoy it that much we can become full timers. We would probably have around £30k, maybe a little more, so should find something reasonable so what extra costs would we be looking at. Would be travelling so no mooring fees but would obviously need water and pump outs, fuel etc. 

 

What are you going to do with the boat over winter? I know you said that maybe you'll become full time full time liveaboards eventually, but even if that happens you'll need to do something with the boat initially and perhaps for the first few winters.

[Chewbacka]

3 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

How does this work exactly? I thought real terms depreciation already accounted for inflation but then you say "offset by inflation"? Does inflation even affect the second hand boat market or are we talking about inflation affecting everything else? Economics was never my strong point.

It is a bit more complex than that.  For most people (ie those that have a boat as fun rather than their home) having a boat is a matter of choice, so when times are good then more are buying than selling so used boat prices rise, of course during hard times, if money is tight then the boat must go, and buyers delay buying until they feel safe to spend money, so prices fall.  My feeling is that until Brexit is clear, then boat sales will slow and prices will come down, which for a buyer prepared to haggle can only be good.  

[Alan de Enfield]

53 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

It is a bit more complex than that.  For most people (ie those that have a boat as fun rather than their home) having a boat is a matter of choice, so when times are good then more are buying than selling so used boat prices rise, of course during hard times, if money is tight then the boat must go, and buyers delay buying until they feel safe to spend money, so prices fall.  My feeling is that until Brexit is clear, then boat sales will slow and prices will come down, which for a buyer prepared to haggle can only be good.  

Just an opposite thought :

 

In these wonderful times of Equity release, taking 'lump sum pensions', no interest given on money in the bank, increased leisure times, worries about the possibility (and costs) of foreign holidays I think the boat market will remain quite buoyant for the forceable future.

 

Competitively priced boats will continue to sell quickly (in many instances even before they 'hit the internet'), and overpriced and 'clunkers' will continue to sit 'on the shelf'.

 

Leisure boats generally do not make good liveaboards, but liveaboard boats make good leisure boats.

 

Whilst I am pessimistic about the medium to long term future of the canals, I am optimistic for the continuing growth of boat sales (until the new 2035 / 2050 legislation on ICE starts to rear its head).

The imminent increase in price of 'Red-Diesel' (and changes to 'White-Diesel) will have a very small effect on the Inland waterways costs, and extra 'few £100's' per year is a small drop in the ocean of boat costs and will just be absorbed as we do for Beer, Cigarettes, and Petrol prices - a few months and it'll all be forgotten.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, Chewbacka said:

It is a bit more complex than that.  For most people (ie those that have a boat as fun rather than their home) having a boat is a matter of choice, so when times are good then more are buying than selling so used boat prices rise, of course during hard times, if money is tight then the boat must go, and buyers delay buying until they feel safe to spend money, so prices fall.  My feeling is that until Brexit is clear, then boat sales will slow and prices will come down, which for a buyer prepared to haggle can only be good.  

 

Yes, those are fair points, but you're answering slightly different questions than the ones I was asking.

[Chewbacka]

7 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Yes, those are fair points, but you're answering slightly different questions than the ones I was asking.

Sorry.  You asked about the effect of inflation on boat depreciation.  Normally as prices generally rise due to inflation, so one would expect prices of both new and therefore used boats to rise as well.  Whilst the cost of new boats is tied to inflation - labour costs and material costs have to be recovered in the sale price - used boats only tend to follow new boats, as typically a used boat will be x% less than a new boat depending upon condition.  As to depreciation a boat has a finite life, so it’s value falls as it ages, but the amount it falls by will also be affected by the general used boat prices, so in times of rising prices, depreciation may be small in absolute terms.  The point I was trying to make is that boats are also heavily influenced by other external factors, though mine and AdE differ as to up or down.  Only time will tell who was right.

[cuthound]

7 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

How does this work exactly? I thought real terms depreciation already accounted for inflation but then you say "offset by inflation"? Does inflation even affect the second hand boat market or are we talking about inflation affecting everything else? Economics was never my strong point.

 

A good example would be Springers from the 1970's & 80's. Well maintained examples currently sell for about the same price in £'s as they sold for new.

Edited September 7, 2019 by cuthound
To unmangle the effects of autocorrect.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Sprinters

Sprinters = Springers ?

[cuthound]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Sprinters = Springers ?

 

Yes. Bluddy autocorrect interfering again.? I corrected it as you posted. 

 

I think Mercedes vans depreciate even more so are never worth their original selling price. ?

Edited September 7, 2019 by cuthound

[malp]

17 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Very roughly, there is one every 4 hours cruising. However there are some parts of the system where they are further apart, or in London for example many users chasing a handful of Elsan points.

As a rule of thumb I reckon that's a bit optimistic for CRT facilities, there are parts of the system where you might well go a day or more, and that's assuming a good rate of progress.   Boatyards will often let you use their disposal points, sometimes at a fee, but probably not on turn round days if they run a hire fleet.   Many folk with cassette toilets will carry one or two spare cassettes, but you then need somewhere to store them (preferrably not on the roof).

[MtB]

11 hours ago, blackrose said:

How does this work exactly? I thought real terms depreciation already accounted for inflation but then you say "offset by inflation"?

 

No, deflation in cash terms also accounts for inflation. Real terms deflation strips out the masking effect of inflation. The problem lies in the fact that we measure both value and price using the same units, Pounds Sterling.

 

Imagine a hypothetical situation where boats decline in value by 10% in a year. In a zero inflation environment you'd expect a boat after a year to be worth 90% in cash terms of its value at the beginning of the year.  Similarly it will be worth 90% in real terms. But imagine if inflation is running at 10% too. The 10% inflation rise in prices almost perfectly offsets and masks the 10% fall in value.

 

After a year everyone's income has grown by 10%, along with all their other costs and outgoings. Now although the boat has remained the same price, its value has fallen by 10%. This is because all the prices surrounding it have risen.

 

 

[Bill The Bus]

Sorry guys it's all getting complicated lol. I am not worried to much about depreciation as I expect that. I am more thinking if we only own it for the one year how much am I likely to lose overall, taking into account fees etc. So if I was to hire one for a 9 month period I would pay say£15k i am thinking it would still be cheaper to buy and resell. If I could get away with losing £5-7k it would be feasible, much more and it would take to much out of the pot. 

 

Hope that explains it better. 

[Kudzucraft]

I have found a few lists of what people living on boats say they have spent over a year.  Taking what they have spent, trying to adjust their numbers to fit what we have in mind I have created a spread sheet of expense. I think it is reasonably accurate but rest assured that every time this comes up several "smarter than me" people will say it is rubbish. So take it and do your own numbers.

 

1600 per year   50-60 foot boat GOLD lic. and insurance

 

LIVING EXPENSE 

We included blacking just so we could figure out how much to each month we would be looking at.

Many of these figures are just best guess and will be higher or lower but it is starting point.

I didn't put anything in for moorings at the time but I am sure there will be some money spent occasionally on moorings.

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Kudzucraft

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, Kudzucraft said:

I have found a few lists of what people living on boats say they have spent over a year.  Taking what they have spent, trying to adjust their numbers to fit what we have in mind I have created a spread sheet of expense. I think it is reasonably accurate but rest assured that every time this comes up several "smarter than me" people will say it is rubbish. So take it and do your own numbers.

 

1600 per year   50-60 foot boat GOLD lic. and insurance

 

LIVING EXPENSE 

We included blacking just so we could figure out how much to each month we would be looking at.

Many of these figures are just best guess and will be higher or lower but it is starting point.

I didn't put anything in for moorings at the time but I am sure there will be some money spent occasionally on moorings.

 

 

 

 

This doesn't include broker fees for when the OP sells after a year. 

 

ISTR it costs about £3k for a broker to flog your boat. On the other hand the broker may well get £3k more for it than the OP would trying to sell it on Apolloduck. 

 

For short periods like a year the figures get incredibly lumpy. He might over (or under) pay for the boat when buying, there might be a 'large expense' like a new engine or new baseplate in that one year, but probably won't. No guarantees though, which is what he seems to be seeking. 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Mike the Boilerman

[cuthound]

35 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This doesn't include broker fees for when the OP sells after a year. 

 

ISTR it costs about £3k for a broker to flog your boat. On the other hand the broker may well get £3k more for it than the OP would trying to sell it on Apolloduck. 

 

For short periods like a year the figures get incredibly lumpy. He might over (or under) pay for the boat when buying, there might be a 'large expense' like a new engine or new baseplate in that one year, but probably won't. No guarantees though, which is what he seems to be seeking. 

 

 

 

 

 

Brokers charge a percentage of the selling price.

 

For example this is what ABNB say. No doubt other leading brokers will charge similar amounts.

 

"Our charges are based upon the final selling price of your boat.

 

The rate is 6% plus VAT. We ofer a discount for previous customers of ABNB, please ask for details. (Minimum fee £1500 plus VAT)"

 

Nice work if you can get it.

Edited September 7, 2019 by cuthound
Phat phingers

[Alan de Enfield]

36 minutes ago, Bill The Bus said:

Sorry guys it's all getting complicated lol. I am not worried to much about depreciation as I expect that. I am more thinking if we only own it for the one year how much am I likely to lose overall, taking into account fees etc. So if I was to hire one for a 9 month period I would pay say£15k i am thinking it would still be cheaper to buy and resell. If I could get away with losing £5-7k it would be feasible, much more and it would take to much out of the pot. 

 

Hope that explains it better. 

 

If you hire a boat you will have absolutely no maintenance costs, no breaking down stress trying to find someone to come out to you on a wet Sunday night. Its all in the price.

If the engine 'blows-up' and its £5000 for a new one - "No-worries" its all covered.

You won't have to pay for a licence (£800 +)

You won't have to pay Insurance (£200 ?)

You wont have to pay for the safety certificate testing

You won't have to pay for a mooring

You won't lose any value in depreciation

You won't have to pay a broker £3000 to sell it for you

You can hire for any period you want and walk away with no obligations.

You will probably get a 'better' (bigger - newer - quality) boat than you will buy for ~£30k

 

You will only have to pay for diesel and gas as you would with your own boat.

 

 

If you buy a boat at £30k :

Firstly you have to find one that you are happy with - it could take months

Whilst £30k is not at the 'bottom of the market' it is below 'good quality boats' and you shouldn't be surprised if there is some remedial work to do.

It will cost you best part of £1000 for a survey - if it fails the survey, you need to find another (acceptable) boat and pay another £1000, (ad infinitum until you find the right one)

Then you have all the 'running costs' (Licence, Insurance, Safety certificate).

You will need to keep some 'readily accessible cash' for the 'oops times'.

You will probably need a new set of batteries (£500 ?)

When you come to sell you have to pay the broker a commission (probably around £3,000) and hope he can find a customer for you quickly, or you can be left with it for months, so you drop the price, and drop the price and ……………………..

 

For a short term such as you are proposing I think its very close which way to go (rent or buy). It depends how easy you want your life (that must have some 'value')

 

If you 'buy' I reckon that out of your £30k investment you'd probably end up with £20k after all costs and  depreciation.

 

Your money your choice.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

1 minute ago, cuthound said:

Nice work if you can get it.

 

A pointless and shortsighted snipe at brokers who by and large, provide a good service.

 

You've obviously never tried to run your own sizeable business!

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

6 minutes ago, cuthound said:

"Our charges are based upon the funal sekking price of your boat.

That's not autocorrect - that's bad typing!