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Red diesel petition


Momac

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1 minute ago, Eldog said:

I rather take exception that all leisure cruisers are rich; suggest you seek medical assistance to get that chip on your shoulder removed. By the way I've signed, mainly because it's grossly unfair on the live-aboard population who I believe in the main get on with us leisure bods.

I think you should read the bit of the post below the bit you highlighted

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2 hours ago, OldGoat said:

I'm inclined to agree with you!

I would be content with the curent regime, however.

A shift to 'white' fuel means not only an increase in costs for 'us' boaters but large increase in costs and security issues for canalside sellers.

Methinks the recent questionaire from HMRC should be answered by (more) boaters as it's an oportunity for 'us' to explain the situation. It takes some effort to respond (lots of questions) and I suspect that the usual apathy will occur....

Yes, good old apathy. We moan a good job in the UK.

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1 hour ago, Eldog said:

I rather take exception that all leisure cruisers are rich; suggest you seek medical assistance to get that chip on your shoulder removed. By the way I've signed, mainly because it's grossly unfair on the live-aboard population who I believe in the main get on with us leisure bods.

I didn’t say I thought all boaters are rich leisure boaters, i think it’s the impression the petition gives and will therefore get little support from those that don’t understand the waterways which is most members of parliament.  I believe it is very unfair on people that live on boats and use diesel for heating and electric generation, but the petition does not mention that.  In fact it states that 60% of diesel is used for propulsion which is more related to a hobby boat than a living on boat.  

 

Added - please also read my post #37.

Edited by Chewbacka
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1 minute ago, Chewbacka said:

I didn’t say I thought all boaters are rich leisure boaters, i think it’s the impression the petition gives and will therefore get little support from those that don’t understand the waterways which is most members of parliament.  I believe it is very unfair on people that live on boats and use diesel for heating and electric generation, but the petition does not mention that.  In fact it states that 60% of diesel is used for propulsion which is more related to a hobby boat than a living on boat.  

A number of people I have spoken to have the same opinion.

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13 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Sadly I think this petition is going to be a bit of an own goal, I hope I am wrong.

I think we have "barked up the wrong tree" from day one in some ways, but don't have the necessary skills to come up with a better campaign.
A number of years ago a guy on here started a good thread and played "Devils advocate" on this issue, but the best reason that many came up with for retaining red diesel was "because we always did it like that," or "because we want it." He was doing quite a good job of stimulating debate, but got shouted down as people misunderstood his intentions.

The poverty issues facing our country (many now living on canals and other waterways in poverty) and of course environmental concerns would seem to be important factors. Drive people into further poverty and it will have social consequences.  (I cite possible increased theft of diesel from boats/vehicles as one example.)

Edited by Guest
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18 hours ago, furnessvale said:

Have you read the HMRC consultation?  If your boat is anything other than 100% commercial you WILL have to use white diesel.

 

All the liveaboard roving traders will fall foul of HMRCs interpretation of what is required.

 

George

You will have to either pay 100% OR have a second tank for domestic use.  Which for many boats may not be possible.  New builds should add little to the cost, but not many people that live on their boat buy new, so effectively you are correct it will be 100%

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2 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

You will have to either pay 100% OR have a second tank for domestic use.  Which for many boats may not be possible.  New builds should add little to the cost, but not many people that live on their boat buy new, so effectively you are correct it will be 100%

Many Piper hulls have twin fillers, they are the dollies on the stern. My mate had one and wrote "Heating" on one and " Engine" on the other. Funny, he only ever needed to fill using the "Heating" one and he never ran out of fuel.

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3 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Many Piper hulls have twin fillers, they are the dollies on the stern. My mate had one and wrote "Heating" on one and " Engine" on the other. Funny, he only ever needed to fill using the "Heating" one and he never ran out of fuel.

:)

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On 06/09/2019 at 12:46, GRLMK38 said:

I'm surprised at how few have signed this considering how vocal the canal community can be on subjects that have financial implications on boaters.

Just goes to show how small a difference it will make to the exchequer to increase the tax burden an a small minority, bet it will cost more to police and collect than it is ever worth.

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5 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Just goes to show how small a difference it will make to the exchequer to increase the tax burden an a small minority, bet it will cost more to police and collect than it is ever worth.

I think that HMRC have said similar. 
A few years ago when all this was kicking off, and our government let us down on the issue (they could have vetoed it), I emaild my Euro MP. I was gobsmacked to get a phone call off him one Sunday and to have  a long discussion with him about the issues. Whether it made a scrap of difference I will never know, but at least he seemed interested, which is more than can be said for my MP.

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15 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Just goes to show how small a difference it will make to the exchequer to increase the tax burden an a small minority, bet it will cost more to police and collect than it is ever worth.

80,000 boats on the inland waterways (lets say they are all diesel powered)

200,000+ Diesel boats on the coast.

 

Call it 300,000 all in.

 

If they get just another £10 per year off each boater that's £3 million extra income - that'd pay for a few 'collectors'

 

There is about 30p (I think) difference between 'domestic' & 'propulsion' prices so if the average used is (say)  500 litres of which 60% was at the reduced rate (300 litres) a year then that would equate to an additional £90 per boater, or £27,000,000 extra for the tax-man.

 

Edit to add : Happy to have the maths corrected if I've got it wrong.

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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17 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Just goes to show how small a difference it will make to the exchequer to increase the tax burden an a small minority, bet it will cost more to police and collect than it is ever worth.

They would be more likely to decide on something like a 60:40 or 50:50 split and make the sellers pay it so no paperwork for end users, and more in the coffers.

 

Or just mandate white diesel only for boats, allowing VAT-registered commercial boats to claim a rebate.

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

80,000 boats on the inland waterways (lets say they are all diesel powered)

200,000+ Diesel boats on the coast.

 

Call it 300,000 all in.

 

If they get just another £10 per year off each boater that's £3 million extra income - that'd pay for a few 'collectors'

 

There is about 30p (I think) difference between 'domestic' & 'propulsion' prices so if the average used is (say)  500 litres of which 40% was at the reduced rate (200 litres) a year then that would equate to an additional £60 per boater, or £18,000,000 extra for the tax-man.

 

 

 

Interesting, but won't a lot of those boats be traders running on red anyway?
I have spoken to many marina owners when filling up, and most claim that nobody has ever looked at the paperwork that we have signed re. declaration. "Loads of it in the back gathering dust!"
I doubt that it will be worthwhile overall, but who knows? Perhaps what we boaters pay extra will give the chancellor room to reduce income tax by 5%? (For the avoidance of doubt that was not a serious suggestion :) )

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On 06/09/2019 at 14:42, GRLMK38 said:

Which as a Roving Trader I'm perfectly entitled to do...

There is no certainty that Roving Traders will qualify for Red, and even if they do, Red may no longer be available if all the sellers have switched to white.

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46 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Just goes to show how small a difference it will make to the exchequer to increase the tax burden an a small minority, bet it will cost more to police and collect than it is ever worth.

I don't think they will bother to police it, rather they will allow circumstances to do it for them. Assuming red diesel is banned for boats other than commercial, the vast majority of suppliers will switch from red to white, they won't be offering both for the small number of legitimate red users. So then your left with a few, who will seek out red elsewhere to save a few pennies, but they will be in the minority, most will just simply fill up in the normal way, because it is the easiest way, and maybe grumble a bit at the increase in cost.

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1 minute ago, Capt Ahab said:

There is no certainty that Roving Traders will qualify for Red, and even if they do, Red may no longer be available if all the sellers have switched to white.

Quite the opposite.

 

From the actual consultation:

 

Mixed use – commercial with occasional private use and vice versa

 

3.7 A craft may have mixed use. For example, they may be predominantly for commercial use with some private pleasure use or vice versa. Currently, these vessels may use red diesel, for their commercial use, but must pay the additional duty on fuel used for private pleasure journeys. While red diesel may be used for commercial journeys, the government intends to require craft that are used for private pleasure to be fuelled only with white diesel for private pleasure trips. This means operators would have to drain and flush the fuel tank and refuel with white diesel before any private pleasure use. However, this would not be required when changing use from private to commercial use.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Phil. said:

I don't think they will bother to police it, rather they will allow circumstances to do it for them. Assuming red diesel is banned for boats other than commercial, the vast majority of suppliers will switch from red to white, they won't be offering both for the small number of legitimate red users. So then your left with a few, who will seek out red elsewhere to save a few pennies, but they will be in the minority, most will just simply fill up in the normal way, because it is the easiest way, and maybe grumble a bit at the increase in cost.

In the true British tradition :)

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6 minutes ago, Phil. said:

I don't think they will bother to police it, rather they will allow circumstances to do it for them. Assuming red diesel is banned for boats other than commercial, the vast majority of suppliers will switch from red to white, they won't be offering both for the small number of legitimate red users. So then your left with a few, who will seek out red elsewhere to save a few pennies, but they will be in the minority, most will just simply fill up in the normal way, because it is the easiest way, and maybe grumble a bit at the increase in cost.

I agree with all you say, except I think most canal side places will be a lot more expensive than supermarkets as their volumes are low in comparison, so a fair boaters will buy in tubs/cans etc which will further reduce canal side volumes leading to stale fuel (diesel bug worries) and higher prices leading to even less sales, reducing the number of sales.

If policing is weak, then I also see those with the least money temped to buy red in tubs/cans from agricultural suppliers again reducing canal side sales.  

 

All of this will just increase spillage etc.

 

 

 

 

  • Greenie 1
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2 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

I agree with all you say, except I think most canal side places will be a lot more expensive than supermarkets as their volumes are low in comparison,

All of this will just increase spillage etc.

 

 

 

 

 

Prices I have seen recently for 60/40 split are very close to supermarket prices for 'white'.

Prices for propulsion alone are up to 20p / litre higher than supermarket 'white'.

 

It is totally understandable because - lower volumes - means reduced 'buying power', and having to amortise costs of installation, maintenance and ongoing certification across much lower quantities.

I am buying red diesel for home at around the 50p mark.

 

 

 

I can see a growing demand for one of these :

(A self 'pump-in' kit)

 

https://www.parkerbrand.co.uk/12v-portable-diesel-transfer-fuel-pump-kit-12v-with-automatic-nozzle?gclid=Cj0KCQjwqs3rBRCdARIsADe1pfQHj1eYJlK2592QHuERVpVfNS_-ORZ0y5nE-TFuyNORC6UG-WGpb9saAhNgEALw_wcB

 

12V Portable Diesel Transfer Fuel Pump Kit 12V - With Automatic Nozzle

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10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Prices I have seen recently for 60/40 split are very close to supermarket prices for 'white'.

Prices for propulsion alone are up to 20p / litre higher than supermarket 'white'.

 

It is totally understandable because - lower volumes - means reduced 'buying power', and having to amortise costs of installation, maintenance and ongoing certification across much lower quantities.

I am buying red diesel for home at around the 50p mark.

 

 

 

I can see a growing demand for one of these :

(A self 'pump-in' kit)

 

https://www.parkerbrand.co.uk/12v-portable-diesel-transfer-fuel-pump-kit-12v-with-automatic-nozzle?gclid=Cj0KCQjwqs3rBRCdARIsADe1pfQHj1eYJlK2592QHuERVpVfNS_-ORZ0y5nE-TFuyNORC6UG-WGpb9saAhNgEALw_wcB

 

12V Portable Diesel Transfer Fuel Pump Kit 12V - With Automatic Nozzle

Or just one of these ...

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/laser-jiggle-siphon-hose-20mm-x-1-75m/23447

 

23447_P&$prodImageMedium$

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10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Prices I have seen recently for 60/40 split are very close to supermarket prices for 'white'.

Prices for propulsion alone are up to 20p / litre higher than supermarket 'white'.

 

It is totally understandable because - lower volumes - means reduced 'buying power', and having to amortise costs of installation, maintenance and ongoing certification across much lower quantities.

I am buying red diesel for home at around the 50p mark.

 

 

 

I can see a growing demand for one of these :

(A self 'pump-in' kit)

 

https://www.parkerbrand.co.uk/12v-portable-diesel-transfer-fuel-pump-kit-12v-with-automatic-nozzle?gclid=Cj0KCQjwqs3rBRCdARIsADe1pfQHj1eYJlK2592QHuERVpVfNS_-ORZ0y5nE-TFuyNORC6UG-WGpb9saAhNgEALw_wcB

 

12V Portable Diesel Transfer Fuel Pump Kit 12V - With Automatic Nozzle

Fair point. I think it was about three years ago that we realised it would be cheaper to get fuel from Asda (if declaring an honest split). Just very inconvenient.

 

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