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Is anyone making a stops-at-idle engine yet?


JB Segal

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(Apologies is this is the wrong place to ask, but couldn’t figure a better choice)

 

so, modern cars - starting with the Prius a decade ago, but expanded beyond hybrids, too - turn off their engines rather than idle, starting up again as soon as you press the accelerator.

 

Have any boat engines started doing this yet? A whole lot of diesel is burned at idle and we’d (ok, you’d. I don’t have a boat and won’t for a long time) save a bunch of money if that weren’t the case, as well as being better for the environment.

 

Just wondering...

JB

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I assume you mean when the boat is stationary and idling otherwise momentum would play all sorts of games and lead to who knows what.  The other problem (just one off the top of my head) with implementing an idle engine cut-out would be that you would at least need to have an override switch so that, if you wanted, you could run the engine to charge the batteries.  You don't always want to be moving to accomplish this.

 

More comments from far more knowledgable boaters will no doubt follow when the sun rises on your side of the world

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Its not really "stops at idle" though - its "stop-start", as in, when the car becomes stationary and the engine is no longer needed, a timer starts, then once the time is reached the engine stops; but sensors linked to eg clutch pedal restart it quickly when needed. The problem with implementing even a vaguely similar system to a boat is, how on earth do you sense when its "stopped"? Contactors either side of the boat that sense the bank? Very sensitive INS? I don't think even the most smart sensors could actually detect situations eg mooring but ropes not secured, or sense the difference between being in a lock and waiting for a second boat to join, vs actually no engine further needed. 

 

Also, there were plenty of cars with stop-start before the Prius, and its a hybrid isn't the same thing anyway - it can move without the engine if it wants to (using battery power alone, if the batteries are charged). 

 

You could implement it yourself manually - but then you could do that in any normal car anyway. I frequently turned the engine off if waiting in a queue for a lock - the solar can look after battery charging, and I can pull the boat a boat length forwards using the centreline no worries.

 

Also....a diesel engine consumes almost no fuel at idle anyway, so its much less of an issue than cars.

 

Also, the driver for stop-start in cars is partly urban pollution from stationary car engines, rather than the actual fuel saving (which isn't that much). 

 

Also don't forget the increased wear on starter and starter battery - cars with stop-start have an upgraded system, with the lesser incentive to do so on a boat, there would be less incentive to pay the extra for the required components. 

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3 hours ago, JJPHG said:

I assume you mean when the boat is stationary and idling otherwise momentum would play all sorts of games and lead to who knows what.  The other problem (just one off the top of my head) with implementing an idle engine cut-out would be that you would at least need to have an override switch so that, if you wanted, you could run the engine to charge the batteries.  You don't always want to be moving to accomplish this.

 

More comments from far more knowledgable boaters will no doubt follow when the sun rises on your side of the world

I don't see why 'stationary' is required, as shifting in to reverse should restart the engine just fine... and if it's designed that it takes .5-1 second in neutral to kill the engine, that's a restart avoided in the shift.

And yeah, a "No, really" button - or keyswitch setting - would be quite easy to do.

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But we already have a stop button,, switch position or pull cable so just use that as required. More complications on boats are not wanted and there an be cases where you want the engine idling in neutral - like while you wait for it to spin down before engaging reverse gear to stop  the boat.

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The stop/start on a car does nothing to improve emissions in the real world, it was introduced  purely for the emissions test where the car spends large parts of the test at idle thus helping to improve the figures for the test.

Its a way of cheating the test.

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10 minutes ago, Loddon said:

The stop/start on a car does nothing to improve emissions in the real world, it was introduced  purely for the emissions test where the car spends large parts of the test at idle thus helping to improve the figures for the test.

Its a way of cheating the test.

This^^^^ along with catalytic converters that only work when the exhaust reaches a certain temperature which, in a huge number of cases, never happens because we do not drive far enough. Both cons perpertrated by the car industry to get round impossible emmision targets. I turn my stop/start system off when I remember. Unfortunately it is on by default.

 

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13 minutes ago, Loddon said:

The stop/start on a car does nothing to improve emissions in the real world...........

Tend to agree when you consider the wider picture; but I believe "they" say that if you're in a traffic jam and going to be sitting there for more than 30 secs, it does in fact make sense to turn the engine off (and on again).

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8 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Tend to agree when you consider the wider picture; but I believe "they" say that if you're in a traffic jam and going to be sitting there for more than 30 secs, it does in fact make sense to turn the engine off (and on again).

If by "they" you mean "the facts", you're correct. In one experiment where volunteers asked people sitting outside a school to turn their engines off when waiting, the local pollution levels dropped by more than 50%.

But as was said earlier, reducing pollution in local hotspots is the biggest benefit, not overall fuel saving. Of course you could say that a lock is a very local pollution hotspot, especially with some engines...

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1 hour ago, frangar said:

They have this system already installed on thames locks....it’s a PIA with a vintage engine! 

FWIW - just speak to the lockie on duty (if he / she  can hear you above the sound of the engine...) and they will lock you up separately. 

It's a safety issue.

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1 minute ago, OldGoat said:

FWIW - just speak to the lockie on duty (if he / she  can hear you above the sound of the engine...) and they will lock you up separately. 

It's a safety issue.

To be fair I’ve had a lockie say leave it on cos he liked the sound...I had more stress with the assistants/vollies who insisted on it off...then drew the paddles while I was in the engine room powering down. I made my feelings clear when I got back up on top. 

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I do tend to use forward/reverse to maintain position when in locks as there isn't too much space between gates and the boat and likewise the cill at the rear (The boat is just under 71ft). So I prefer to have the motor running.

Petrified of "hanging -up". It happens all too often.

Edited by Stephen Jeavons
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I reckon that, for the majority of the time the engine is running, the domestic batteries are still charging. The bigger challenge for many boaters is running the engine long enough to get the tail current down to where it really ought to be. Even when the batteries are fully topped off, at a typical 1.25 litres an hour consumption, i doubt that there's much to be saved by the complexity of auto stop-start that couldn't be closely matched by a careful helmsman. I also doubt my starter battery would still be going strong after 10 years if stop-start was fitted to my boat, so there's another factor in any budget-based considerations.

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11 hours ago, JB Segal said:

(Apologies is this is the wrong place to ask, but couldn’t figure a better choice)

 

so, modern cars - starting with the Prius a decade ago, but expanded beyond hybrids, too - turn off their engines rather than idle, starting up again as soon as you press the accelerator.

 

Have any boat engines started doing this yet? A whole lot of diesel is burned at idle and we’d (ok, you’d. I don’t have a boat and won’t for a long time) save a bunch of money if that weren’t the case, as well as being better for the environment.

 

Just wondering...

JB

 

4 hours ago, Loddon said:

The stop/start on a car does nothing to improve emissions in the real world, it was introduced  purely for the emissions test where the car spends large parts of the test at idle thus helping to improve the figures for the test.

Its a way of cheating the test.

 

3 hours ago, IanD said:

If by "they" you mean "the facts", you're correct. In one experiment where volunteers asked people sitting outside a school to turn their engines off when waiting, the local pollution levels dropped by more than 50%.

But as was said earlier, reducing pollution in local hotspots is the biggest benefit, not overall fuel saving. Of course you could say that a lock is a very local pollution hotspot, especially with some engines...

My electric boat motor stops every time the boat stops ? My Honda Insight over the years has spent a lot of time stopped at traffic lights etc its the reality of road journeys today! I can ask it through the OBD and I have no doubt it saves fuel and emissions, incidentally the system came out in 97 on the insight in Japan and uses the electric motor and the hybrid battery clever stuff.

In this day and age as Ian says anything that reduces emissions is a good thing so all three of my cars/truck and two boats are good things?

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23 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 


My electric boat motor stops every time the boat stops ?

But Nobody likes a smartass  Peter, electric or not.:offtopic:

'Course it will stop completely when the sun doesn't shine enough, my diesel will run indefinitely in total darkness............:clapping:

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I have pondered over The OP's question "Is anyone making a stops-at-idle engine yet?"

Although I have decided it's a wind up, for the obvious reasons of boats not having immediate brakes or even a handbrake, but having to be safe in locks and near weirs.

I have decided to respond in case there really is someone out there who thinks diesel fumes from a an engine on tick over are such an issue that safety takes a back seat.

 

My response: -

No, nobody has been daft enough (yet) to be convinced that stops-at-idle diesel engines are just the ticket, by Jove!!

No boat should be untied from the bank without its engine running. The steerer who is responsible for all aspects of control will have none if the engine isn't running.  They won't be able to steer, stop, manoeuvre or take positive/evasive action.

 

Nor has anyone yet decided...

ABS

Seat Belts

DVD players in head rests

Minimum tread on fenders

Catalytic Converters on exhausts

Fluffy dice or nodding dogs .. .are missing essentials from the world of Inland Waterways.

 

….. well perhaps nodding dogs.

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15 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

Nor has anyone yet decided...

ABS

Seat Belts

DVD players in head rests

Minimum tread on fenders

Catalytic Converters on exhausts

Fluffy dice or nodding dogs .. .are missing essentials from the world of Inland Waterways.

 

….. well perhaps nodding dogs.

I've got magnetic cup holders.?

Edited by Boater Sam
No idea!
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17 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

......The steerer who is responsible for all aspects of control will have none if the engine isn't running.  They won't be able to steer, stop, manoeuvre or take positive/evasive action......

 

Damn right!. Have you ever tried to steer your moving boat when in neutral? You have zero control without water being pushed or pulled past the rudder. 

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A lot of the comments about stop-start are just FUD from people who don't understand how modern systems work. My car has it, whenever I stop so does the engine. When I lift my foot off the brake it restarts before I can press the accelerator. A similar system on a boat would be triggered from the Morse control (presumably with a delay before turning off) and I doubt it would contribute any significant delay. On reliability, my car has not once failed to restart in three years, why should a boat be any different? Yes the starter needs beefing up and designing for a longer life, but this is hardly difficult or expensive.

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1 hour ago, Boater Sam said:

But Nobody likes a smartass  Peter, electric or not.:offtopic:

'Course it will stop completely when the sun doesn't shine enough, my diesel will run indefinitely in total darkness............:clapping:

 

But it's his religion Sam. He converted to C of E (Church of Electric) ?

Edited by cuthound
Spillung
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31 minutes ago, IanD said:

A lot of the comments about stop-start are just FUD from people who don't understand how modern systems work. My car has it, whenever I stop so does the engine. When I lift my foot off the brake it restarts before I can press the accelerator. A similar system on a boat would be triggered from the Morse control (presumably with a delay before turning off) and I doubt it would contribute any significant delay. On reliability, my car has not once failed to restart in three years, why should a boat be any different? Yes the starter needs beefing up and designing for a longer life, but this is hardly difficult or expensive.

How would it know you aren’t just in neutral and gliding?? My boat steers well in neutral so I often do it. Let’s not add complications. I dare say it won’t be long before new engines need AdBlue & Cats....it’s happening in plant engines now. 

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