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Saani

fast Help please on mystery paperwork in boat sale

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22 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

I don't think the information about CRT registrations held on CanalPlanAC is particularly up to date in many cases.  The "Potemkin" entry is over 6 years old, so the boat could easily have been renamed at any point in the 6 years since that data was handed over to CanalPlan by CRT.

Stating the obvious, perhaps, but if the previous owners have somehow avoided licencing it with CRT, there will be no record on that site.

 

Are there printed licences in the windows, and if so what do they say, and when do/did they expire?

6 years, in fact.

Not 6 years at all - C&RT were unable to give us data for over a year. We only mark a record as updated if something has changed and for a couple of years all cart could give us was new additions - not changes to existing records

 

I have the latest data from C&RT and that shows

 

507322    HOME AT LAST    EVANS & SON

 

 

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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

and most brokers do carry out due diligence to make sure they are not selling stolen property.

 

Do they? How do you know this?  And don't say 'because most brokers told you'!

 

Could you list the ones that carry out 'due diligence' please, and those who don't? Much obliged. 

 

And last and most important of all, what does "due diligence" comprise in this context? How do most broker check ownership and come up with a more reliable result that you or I could? 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Do they? How do you know this?  And don't say 'because most brokers told you'!

 

Could you list the ones that carry out 'due diligence' please, and those who don't? Much obliged. 

 

And last and most important of all, what does "due diligence" comprise in this context? How do most broker check ownership and come up with a more reliable result that you or I could? 

 

 

 

The ABYA Brokers’ Code of Practice includes the following: 
 
 The broker shall collect all available title documentation from the Seller which should include, RCD compliance, evidence of VAT status, registration, outstanding finance, Bills of Sale from previous owners and Builder’s Certificate.  The broker should arrange for a new Bill of Sale from Seller to the Buyer to be completed and passed with all title documentation upon completion.  The broker should provide a Sale and Purchase Agreement for use by the Seller and Buyer.  Amendments to the Agreement should be agreed and initialled by both parties.  
 
 The broker should check as far as possible whether there are any outstanding mortgages, liens or bills relating to the boat and should settle these from the completion monies before sending the balance to the Seller. 
 
 The broker should send completion monies to the Seller as soon as practicable once the funds have cleared and all paperwork has been completed. 

 

 

This generally means that :

 

1) The brokers asks the seller to hand over any documentation he has, &

2) The broker asks the seller if he owes any money to anyone  relating to the boat.

 

 

The Broker shall use best endeavours to verify the complete history of ownership of second-hand craft offered for sale. 
 
 The Broker shall use best endeavours to verify (if possible) the VAT status of secondhand craft, advising prospective clients of any VAT liabilities that may exist in the absence of proof positive of VAT paid status. 
 
 The Broker shall use best endeavours to ensure that all craft offered for sale conform with relevant legislation (RCD etc.). 

 

 

Broker’s ‘Legal Liability To Disclose Information’ 

In the RYA’s view, there is no general legal obligation on either Seller or broker to disclose the existence of defects to a prospective Buyer, unless, of course, they are asked a specific question, which is why a survey is essential. 
 
A standard disclaimer will be included in the brokers Agreement with the Seller, the purpose of which is to protect a broker against complaints by a Buyer that the broker’s published particulars of a boat are wrong, in circumstances where the broker has relied on the Seller’s information when writing those particulars. 

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

This generally means that :

 

1) The brokers asks the seller to hand over any documentation he has, &

2) The broker asks the seller if he owes any money to anyone  relating to the boat.

 

Both of which a buyer can do perfectly easily for him or herself. 

 

Given the broker doesn't actually want to turn away business, I suspect they are often less than inclined to dig too deeply. Consequently I hold that buying from a broker offers less security to a buyer rather than more, in this respect. 

 

Brokers naturally like buyers to think otherwise but do nothing more than the average canny buyer can do for themselves to definitively prove ownership, which happens to be not much. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Both of which a buyer can do perfectly easily for him or herself. 

 

Given the broker doesn't actually want to turn away business, I suspect they are often less than inclined to dig too deeply. Consequently I hold that buying from a broker offers less security to a buyer rather than more, in this respect. 

 

Brokers naturally like buyers to think otherwise but do nothing more than the average canny buyer can do for themselves to definitively prove ownership, which happens to be not much. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have just added another (last) paragraph from the ABYA document.

 

"have a read"

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Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I have just added another (last) paragraph from the ABYA document.

 

"have a read"

 

 

Thank you, I just had a look.

 

That effect known as "I understand the meaning of each individual word, but the meaning of them all together escapes me" is strong.....

 

 

 

 

 

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Braunston Marina sold a nicked boat several years ago and when this came to light, the lawful owner spotted it. The offered to buy back the boat, which was now owned by the insurance company who had paid out on it and in the end did a deal with the insurance company so the new owner could be the legal owner.  

I don't think may brokers would want to get a reputation for handling stolen goods. I agree they can never be 100% sure but I bet that stand more chance than someone in New Zealand does. 

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6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Thank you, I just had a look.

 

That effect known as "I understand the meaning of each individual word, but the meaning of them all together escapes me" is strong.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Example -

 

I know the gas fire is unsafe but I don't have to mention it unless the exact question asked is "is the gas fire safe ?"

 

The engine is needing a major overhaul but I don't have to mention it unless the exact question is "does the engine need a major overhaul ?"

 

The disclaimer is pretty clear :

 

"Anything stated in the details may not be correct, it is up to you to find out"

 

Disclaimer

The details contained herein are believed to be accurate, but cannot be guaranteed. They are not intended to, and do not form any
part of any current or future contract. Prospective purchasers are advised to have an independent survey carried out to satisfy
themselves as to the condition and specification of the vessel. No guarantee is given or implied in respect of age, specification,
condition, suitability for a particular purpose or legal title.

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

That effect known as "I understand the meaning of each individual word, but the meaning of them all together escapes me" is strong.....

Allow me ...

 

It's not our fault you didn't ask the right questions before you paid.

And even if you did ask the right questions it was that nasty vendor what told us the fibs we passed on.

Have a nice day.

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33 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Braunston Marina sold a nicked boat several years ago and when this came to light, the lawful owner spotted it. The offered to buy back the boat, which was now owned by the insurance company who had paid out on it and in the end did a deal with the insurance company so the new owner could be the legal owner.  

I don't think may brokers would want to get a reputation for handling stolen goods. I agree they can never be 100% sure but I bet that stand more chance than someone in New Zealand does. 

 

 

This is very laudible of Braunston but surely it proves the opposite of what you initially said and I queried, that 'most brokers' carry out due diligence and prove the boats are not stolen before listing them.

 

Braunston are reputable brokers, but what about all the others? 

 

I don't think there are any ways for a broker to positively check the boats they sell are not stolen.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
Add a bit

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Broker As Agent 
 
The legal consequences of agency are complex.  From the point of view of a prospective Buyer of a boat it is perhaps best to regard the broker as: 
 

a readily available source of information on boats currently for sale; 

 

a person who is easily contactable and with whom arrangements for viewing can usually be speedily made; 
  
a person with whom a Buyer can conduct frank negotiations, including stipulations for title and related matters, without the risk of upsetting the sensitivities of the owner; 

 

the person who will receive payment on behalf of the Seller. 
 
An effective broker will be able to do all of this while providing a degree of guidance and support to the Buyer.  An experienced Buyer will acknowledge the assistance of the broker in facilitating the sale, while recognising that, however helpful the broker is, his first duty is to his client, the Seller.  The Buyer should therefore bear this in mind when proceeding with the purchase.   

 

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Thanks for replies. Both Points taken about brokers. Sorry I should have been clearer my “child” is in her 30s and will be living with partner on boat following in car so can continually cruise and get to where she needs to go. And my younger children will only be with me later on the boat not unaccompanied. 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

An effective broker will be able to do all of this while providing a degree of guidance and support to the Buyer.  An experienced Buyer will acknowledge the assistance of the broker in facilitating the sale, while recognising that, however helpful the broker is, his first duty is to his client, the Seller.  The Buyer should therefore bear this in mind when proceeding with the purchase.   
 

 

And an inexperienced buyer... ?

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Does anyone have any particular thoughts on the bill of sale being unsigned.This is a principal worry for me.

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32 minutes ago, Saani said:

Does anyone have any particular thoughts on the bill of sale being unsigned.This is a principal worry for me.

 

Yes. Boat sales are conducted on a handshake and personal trust, by and large. The bits of paper can say anything you like but who has the boat is mostly what counts. 

 

What bill of sale is unsigned by who?

 

 

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Sorry was rushing out of house and should have written undated not unsigned and thanks for the further page of comments which I missed and will read now. 

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Yes  thanks for the above comments they  make  sobering reading. And make me wonder if I walk away whether I will find many other options with a better paper history as it seems generally a hit and miss affair in respect to a boats proof of provenance.

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9 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Do they? How do you know this?  And don't say 'because most brokers told you'!

 

Could you list the ones that carry out 'due diligence' please, and those who don't? Much obliged. 

 

And last and most important of all, what does "due diligence" comprise in this context? How do most broker check ownership and come up with a more reliable result that you or I could? 

 

 

MrB is correct. I arranged  to look at a  boat: it took me two phone calls to discover the boat was not fully owned by the vendor and that the "owner" wanted me to pay by bank transfer to a third person, not the broker.

The broker seemed "uninterested" in this information,  obviously by this time, I was not going to buy the boat.  

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Thanks all,  I’ve since discovered along with no paperwork incl receipts of work or goods etc the boat is not CE marked, no boat manual, no RCD, am told this not an issue and will only affect resale. Interested to hear thoughts but feel it’s  last straw for that boat. And really hearing you all about buying at a distance. I need to follow the forums more to learn and then either be there or get someone in the know to help I’d say.

I would have thought that it leaves you vulnerable to having to prove it’s up to RCD and modify if not,  but since it’s had several sets of safety certifications , advice was no one would care.

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24 minutes ago, Saani said:

...............….the boat is not CE marked, no boat manual, no RCD, am told this not an issue and will only affect resale.

If we take that at face value - the seller is saying that you have to take the 'hit' when you come to sell it. but when he sells it, he will not take the 'hit' on reduced value.

 

With a 2001 built UK inland waterways boat the fact it is missing the correct documentation is no 'biggy' (anywhere else in Europe and he wouldn't be able to sell it) as the UK waterways has a history of non-conformity with the 'authorities'

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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Thanks for that yep I think at 49.500 and low spec, though pretty, its been overpriced, esp with regards the hit expected on resale.

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50 minutes ago, Saani said:

Thanks all,  I’ve since discovered along with no paperwork incl receipts of work or goods etc the boat is not CE marked, no boat manual, no RCD, am told this not an issue and will only affect resale. Interested to hear thoughts but feel it’s  last straw for that boat. And really hearing you all about buying at a distance. I need to follow the forums more to learn and then either be there or get someone in the know to help I’d say.

I would have thought that it leaves you vulnerable to having to prove it’s up to RCD and modify if not,  but since it’s had several sets of safety certifications , advice was no one would care.

It could quite legitimately have no RCD plaque, manual etc. My boat hasn't.

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Yes in my understanding if it was a self build or  for multiple person onboard hire purposes. But this was built by a boat builder and sold to private party 2002 so should have complied but somehow no mark or paperwork 

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24 minutes ago, Saani said:

Thanks for that yep I think at 49.500 and low spec, though pretty, its been overpriced, esp with regards the hit expected on resale.

Do what @Alan de Enfield does and offer them £80,000 less than asking price ... you'll take the boat as is if they give you thirty grand as well. :D

 

  • Happy 1

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