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Ruggerini engine just rebuilt


Ant cole

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Hi all , we have a 45 ft boat 25 year old ruggerini rm278. Just rebuilt with new liners pistons rings. , had injectors checked and reset. Fuel pump checked , ,tank cleaned , new fuel , , , fuel water sock in , marine 16 in ,,,head rebuilt twice ,  as it got worse after 2 week holiday , only done 14 hrs since this rebuild. As engine man thought valves were problem , so we had valve seats redone , it still smokes. Still smelly smoke , bluish Grey,,, we are very fed up after spending 2,5k and engine still dirty , we can’t leave it running in lock , it starts great runs well , , my engine man and Bryco say needs running in for 100 hrs  on load, we have been tying it up in gear and running near full revs , as it’s an old cast head, ,,  depends on next few weeks if we sell at a big loss, if we can’t use it. , just no point ,  any help appreciated , ..  

Edited by Ant cole
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Were the piston ring grooves worn allowing the new rings to rattle up and down pumping oil up the bores?

 

Valve guides OK? Are there valve stem oil seals that have  not turned to carbon?

 

What is the oil consumption like? Smoke all the time or just on tickover or when revved up?

 

Silencer need burning out?

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Pro marine engine builder did work I can only assume all good , atm it smokes all the time , even on tickover. , has small spell when it stopped after a real thrash ,, I have no idea about silencer. , could that be a cause , ? The boat smoked a bit when we bought it 12 months ago , 

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Check the egine oil regularly or after every run and get an idea how much its burning and how much oil you have to top it up with, if any. It might well be old oily goo buring from the exhaust and silencer, especially as like you said the exhaust stinks. Also the injection timing might be slightly out causing the smoke.

Edited by bizzard
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Hi. Engine seems to be using no oil , , we keep it on minimum to keep a check  easier and heard about overfilling causing smoke , , engine has no thermostat as it’s basically a marinised tractor engine , but temp gauge in manifold , it’s a water cooled manifold , and the gauge only sits at about 60 degrees ,  oil pressure over 40 , , just a 2cylinder 1250 engine , , , to me temp seems low. , next run I will use digital temp reader on sender and water ,  ,  we did notice some soot around  engine header filler cap , ,could exhaust be sorted up ? If so any remedy ? 

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9 minutes ago, Ant cole said:

Hi. Engine seems to be using no oil , , we keep it on minimum to keep a check  easier and heard about overfilling causing smoke , , engine has no thermostat as it’s basically a marinised tractor engine , but temp gauge in manifold , it’s a water cooled manifold , and the gauge only sits at about 60 degrees ,  oil pressure over 40 , , just a 2cylinder 1250 engine , , , to me temp seems low. , next run I will use digital temp reader on sender and water ,  ,  we did notice some soot around  engine header filler cap , ,could exhaust be sorted up ? If so any remedy ? 

60 degrees is not too bad, many sea boats using direct salt water for cooling run at about that temp. Looking to me like either goo burning out of the exhaust system or possibly injection timing not quite correct, perhaps retarded, injecting a little late.

Edited by bizzard
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Keeping the oil level on minimum is not so good really, could starve the piston skirt of oil. Is the engine mounted at a steepl rearwards sloping angle? if so and the dipstick is towards the rear then keeping the oil level on minimum on the dip stick might be best, but the front piston might get starrved of oil. I don'y know these engines and am generalizing on engines. Is it a flat horizontal 2 cylinder engine or a more normal vertical cylinder engine?

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30 years ago I bought a 30' yacht with a BMC 1.5 engine that smoked badly. Stripped the engine and had the bores checked. On the advice of the long established engine reconditioners I had the bores honed and fitted new rings. The engine still smoked badly. I was ready to go for a full rebore etc. The reconditioner suggested (and supplied) I try what I can only describe as a gritty feeling oil for an hour or so under a reasonable load followed by an oil change to a running in oil for a few hours followed by normal oil for 20 hours. At all oil changes the filter was changed.  The end result was that the engine stopped smoking and went on to give good service. Vaguely remember the oils being Morris's but could be wrong.   

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If its not getting up to a reasonable temperature I would expect the combustion to be poor and smoky. Many engines fume a bit when cold and clear when hot, if its never been hot the exhaust will be full of half burnt fuel and soot. 

Get it hot and run it hard against a load, moving against a current, not just static in gear.

You can still buy running in oil I think but its a bit drastic, better to run without an air filter for a while and let it eat some dust.

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6 minutes ago, Ant cole said:

Cheers. Sounds likely. How can I clear the exhaust or is it buy another.   Also how can I  get it hotter generally ? Bar running full load. 

You could restrict the coolant flow by using a G clamp clamping two bits of wood on one of the main engine water hoses. Keep tightening the clamp until the temp rises.  But WARNING!! keep a strict eye on things all the time, don't wander off and leave it. Be ready to remove the clamp or stop the engine if things get too hot.

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We were going to clean exhaust but on examination it’s welded in , so question , can I just split from manifold , block up and pour caustic soda and water down  from outside of boat via funnel , Leave a day then drain , are there any parts that could be damaged by this , and any idea how long to dry out ? . , and most importantly is this worth doing ? . . 

Edited by Ant cole
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52 minutes ago, Ant cole said:

We were going to clean exhaust but on examination it’s welded in , so question , can I just split from manifold , block up and pour caustic soda and water down  from outside of boat via funnel , Leave a day then drain , are there any parts that could be damaged by this , and any idea how long to dry out ? . , and most importantly is this worth doing ? . . 

I used to do this on my two stroke motorbikes. I’d soak the silencer for a couple of hours then rinse through with clean water, drip dry for a short while then reattach. It’ll soon dry out properly when it gets hot. A day instead of a couple of hours should do no harm. 

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I think Morris glazebuster oil is no longer available due to modern regulations, and its not a good thing to use, a sort of last resort..

First thing is to decide if smoke is blue (burning oil) or grey (incomplete combustion). This can be surprisingly difficult. If your oil consumption really is zero them its not blue smoke.

Has this engine ever run clean? Is the exhaust clean when you work the engine really hard? Some diesels will often smoke on light load, if its in a narrowboat then a lot of engines don't really like running close to idle for long periods.

 

Is it just a bit of smoke or seriously embarrassing?

 

..........Dave

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37 minutes ago, dmr said:

I think Morris glazebuster oil is no longer available due to modern regulations, and its not a good thing to use, a sort of last resort..

First thing is to decide if smoke is blue (burning oil) or grey (incomplete combustion). This can be surprisingly difficult. If your oil consumption really is zero them its not blue smoke.

Has this engine ever run clean? Is the exhaust clean when you work the engine really hard? Some diesels will often smoke on light load, if its in a narrowboat then a lot of engines don't really like running close to idle for long periods.

 

Is it just a bit of smoke or seriously embarrassing?

 

..........Dave

Whilst I couldn't remember it's name Morris Glazebuster is obviously what I used. If it is available it may not be 'a good thing to use' and may be 'a sort of last resort' I would be interested to know on what basis you make those comments. Yes, it may be a lousy engineering solution but I can only repeat that it worked for me. Please note that I'm not trying to enter into an argument just interested.

 

To the OP.  IF you decide to go down the glazebuster line I've just done a quick google and Millers Oils do a glazebuster oil. The same search found Amazon selling it but only in a 4 x 5 litre offer at £100. Whatever you decide to do, good luck

Edited by Slim
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9 hours ago, Slim said:

Whilst I couldn't remember it's name Morris Glazebuster is obviously what I used. If it is available it may not be 'a good thing to use' and may be 'a sort of last resort' I would be interested to know on what basis you make those comments. Yes, it may be a lousy engineering solution but I can only repeat that it worked for me. Please note that I'm not trying to enter into an argument just interested.

 

To the OP.  IF you decide to go down the glazebuster line I've just done a quick google and Millers Oils do a glazebuster oil. The same search found Amazon selling it but only in a 4 x 5 litre offer at £100. Whatever you decide to do, good luck

Another and maybe better "fix" is to remove the air cleaner and throw in a handful of "VIM" or similar whilst the engine is running (if you are brave enough). I assume the Morris and Millers stuff is also an abrasive but hits the bores from below rather than above. As boater Sam says, abrasives in engines is not ideal. Even if they do take the glaze off the bore it likely wont be in a particularly good pattern.

But, the big thing is to decide what is wrong and bore glazing is a bit "over-blamed" in the world of canal engines. Using an abrasive when the issue is not bore glazing is not good. It could be an injection or temperature issue. If the engine is not using oil then its most likely not bore glazing. It starts easily so compression is likely ok but could maybe try to test this. Its only run 14 hours so try to do more hard running before doing anything drastic, and monitor oil consumption over a longer period.

 

.............Dave

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Pal of mine was seen to throw a handful of sand into an air intake, it swallowed it. Don't know if it made any difference.

Run it for a lot longer with the air filter off. Introducing abrasives into an engine seems to be all wrong, engine makers would not approve. You cannot be sure that it all washes out and there is bound to be some corners that don't get cleaned completely.

My BMC rebuilds always got better after a few hundred hours, rings take a while to bed in especially in new liners.

A thought...., were the liners chromed? If so they will take an age to bed in.

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3 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

Bear in mind it is an Italian engine, its electing a new Pope.

 

Abrasive oils may clear the glazing on the bores but what does it do to the bearings and oil pump in the process?

I've got no axe to grind just citing my experience 30 years ago using the process. In my case it worked with no apparent effects on the valve gear. bearings, oil pump etc. From a position fairly similar to the OP I followed the advice of an established engine re-borer (who's still there 30 years on) and it worked. Going back to the Miller Oils site their information specifically mentions bearings etc. As a company they've been in existence since 1877 (132 years) so they're hardly a start up organization.    

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My old engine reconditioner has been retired many years now, he went blind and may well be dead by now. 

 

A real old school engineer, he used to machine race engines for me and they were superb. He taught me some smart tricks like never putting skirt rings on pistons, he said they did nothing but wear the bores more, and honing cylinders half a thou oversize on racing engines to avoid seizing and reduce friction.

 

He had a contract with Triumph for modifying thrust bearings on their larger car engines, they couldn't solve the end float problem. He did with a machined phosphor bronze collar on the thrust face.

 

He never ground a cylinder head face but used a high speed fly cutter, reckoned it was better.

 

I had a thrust face fail in a Vauxhall engine once, he told me off for grinding it to get the clearance, insisted that I should always take a file to them. His argument was that it was impossible to get all the grinding compound out of the soft metal bearing. 

 

What he said about STP, Molyslip and the like is unrepeatable. He was a firm believer in clean mineral oils, he would have been suspicious of synthetics I think.

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We used to have trouble with crankshaft thrusts on old Rootes group vehicles, mainly due to the heavy to disengage spring clutch pressure plates. We took the centre main bearing cap off chucked the half moon thrust away on the flywheel side and built up the face with Sifbronze braze and filed to fit. Did the job well.

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Well I’ve got the glaze buster oil  and some running in oil , I’ll put in at weekend. , £54 the two.  5 Lts each , , re colour of smoke , to be honest I think grey , but when going through tunnel on Sunday it looked more blue , , as I said no apparent oil usage , , tank been cleaned , water sock in it now , marine 16 in , and I’m using white diesel atm to illuminate bad red possibility , Jerry Can added last week , , , we cruised 7 hrs on Sunday , 1 hr tied up near full throttle in gear , 6 going near full out , as it’s only 18bh approx as only 45 ft boat , , , , and good part of canal to boot it ,  exhaust fumes smell bad , I can’t take it in locks  anymore , , . , will try glaze bust for a few cruises then put running oil in , , I doubt glazed but as a precaution ,  , , I’ll check running temp. With my digital gun , , only other thing is now a water leak from where header tank meets exhaust manifold , . I don’t quite get how a water cooled manifold works yet ,  is it just a jacket around the manifold ?  Leak seems to be from a bung underneath, , .  

Nobody in the modern world seems to be familiar with a ruggerini rm278,    I’m beginning to think I should have replaced not revamped , .,. ,

Edited by Ant cole
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