Wiltshire canal boat family face eviction 'for not moving enough'

[Richard10002]

48 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

But remember that range is not the same as distance travelled. 17.7 miles travel could be achieved by moving around half a mile up and back every two weeks. Range is then half a mile. But in any event the requirement is to convince the Board that he is engaged in a bona fide navigation for the period, ie a year. It may well be that the Board was unconvinced. There is no requirement to travel a range of 20 miles, or any range, but CaRT  have advised that a range less than 20 miles is unlikely to convince them.

The fact is that CaRT have allowed themselves to quote a distance of 20 miles as an annual range, whereas bona fide navigation was previously thought to mean moving to a new "place" every 14 days etc.. 

 

The concomitant being that anybody who thinks they can argue that they are involved in a bona fide navigation if their range is 20 miles or less is truly taking the mickey, and should do whatever they can to keep their heads below the radar for as long as they can. If they have managed to do this for 14 years, (or even just a few years), they should think themselves lucky, accept it as a "fair cop guv'", and either accept the consequences, or change their ways.

 

A range of say, 40 miles in a year, (double CaRTs absolute minimum), would mean moving 20 miles either side of their preferred location. Whilst inconvenient, getting the kids to school wouldn't be insurmountable - the furthest parts of the range could be travelled to during school holidays, of which I'm guessing there are about 12 weeks.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

14 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

The fact is that CaRT have allowed themselves to quote a distance of 20 miles as an annual range, whereas bona fide navigation was previously thought to mean moving to a new "place" every 14 days etc.. 

 

The concomitant being that anybody who thinks they can argue that they are involved in a bona fide navigation if their range is 20 miles or less is truly taking the mickey, and should do whatever they can to keep their heads below the radar for as long as they can. If they have managed to do this for 14 years, (or even just a few years), they should think themselves lucky, accept it as a "fair cop guv'", and either accept the consequences, or change their ways.

 

A range of say, 40 miles in a year, (double CaRTs absolute minimum), would mean moving 20 miles either side of their preferred location. Whilst inconvenient, getting the kids to school wouldn't be insurmountable - the furthest parts of the range could be travelled to during school holidays, of which I'm guessing there are about 12 weeks.

I just love the thought of C&RT understanding what 'bona fide for navigation' means but then allowing themselves to give it entirely different meaning ...

[bizzard]

Telephone boxes are the worlds worse thiings to live in, terrible condensation, stink of pee, sleeping standing up, endless folk trying to intrude into your abode, pretending to be on the phone every time someone looks like coming in to phone hoping they'll go away and find another one. displaying an ''out of order'' sign doesn't work either' The only chance you have of keeping these nuisance intruders at bay is to grasp hold firmly to the door and heave to try and stop folk pulling it open from outside, this ends in a frantic tug of war which you don't know who will win.  Popping out shopping and coming home to find your home occupied by some clot in there using the phone, they get the hump if you tell them to beat it and buy a mobile phone. Once a month a lady from Telecom Hygene turns up to clean the phone apperatus and to wash down the pi$$ stinkingg concrete floor, which is nice but she will try to evict you or report you to get you evicted, These creatures turn up without warning, you'd think they'd be more polie and ring up first to make an appointment.  Offering her a fresh cream doughnut often works to prevent the eviction threat. The only good thing about living in a telephone box is that you get free electric light providing no ones nicked the bulb, always carry a spare bulb in case of this and a cloth to remove the bulb at night so you can change into your pyjamas and get some ''stand up sleep''. There's no switch to turn the light off and on.    No!!! Its rotten living in a phone box but at least you have a roof above your head.  I also recommend fitting curtains all round for privacy.  There is the risk that one day you'll return home to it and find it gone,  dug up and sold to some collector of GPO telephone boxes or to some wealthy tycoon in the USA to erect it in some posh hotel foyer. So, its then back on the road in search of another.

[Tuscan]

To give an idea of the scale of the problem from CRTs perspective  , this is from a meeting held in early 2015 prior to CRT introducing their guidance (which became miles not kilometres. I thought this figures were high at the time but if true then CRTs change of policy has achieved what it set out to do with the vast majority of boats exceeding a range of 20 miles.

• the current information relating to boaters without a home mooring are: 

16 % of c.5,400 CC-ers were recorded cruising within a range of <5 kms, and 66% in a range of <20 kms. X stated these were top line figures that were still being verified – they include some boats licensed later in the year - but they were likely to be a reasonable indication of the numbers with a very limited range of movement.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Tuscan
Spelling

[nbfiresprite]

25 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Telephone boxes are the worlds worse thiings to live in, terrible condensation, stink of pee, sleeping standing up, endless folk trying to intrude into your abode, pretending to be on the phone every time someone looks like coming in to phone hoping they'll go away and find another one. displaying an ''out of order'' sign doesn't work either' The only chance you have of keeping these nuisance intruders at bay is to grasp hold firmly to the door and heave to try and stop folk pulling it open from outside, this ends in a frantic tug of war which you don't know who will win.  Popping out shopping and coming home to find your home occupied by some clot in there using the phone, they get the hump if you tell them to beat it and buy a mobile phone. Once a month a lady from Telecom Hygene turns up to clean the phone apperatus and to wash down the pi$$ stinkingg concrete floor, which is nice but she will try to evict you or report you to get you evicted, These creatures turn up without warning, you'd think they'd be more polie and ring up first to make an appointment.  Offering her a fresh cream doughnut often works to prevent the eviction threat. The only good thing about living in a telephone box is that you get free electric light providing no ones nicked the bulb, always carry a spare bulb in case of this and a cloth to remove the bulb at night so you can change into your pyjamas and get some ''stand up sleep''. There's no switch to turn the light off and on.    No!!! Its rotten living in a phone box but at least you have a roof above your head.  I also recommend fitting curtains all round for privacy.  There is the risk that one day you'll return home to it and find it gone,  dug up and sold to some collector of GPO telephone boxes or to some wealthy tycoon in the USA to erect it in some posh hotel foyer. So, its then back on the road in search of another.

How do you deal with Superman when he wants to change? Thats if he can find one as they are as rare round here.

[Horace42]

10 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you walk down to your local shop 1 mile away, and then walk back home, your DISTANCE is 2 miles, but your RANGE is one mile.

 

If you do that every day for a month then your DISTANCE will be 60 miles but your RANGE will still be only 1 mile.

 

C&RT have 'suggested' that if you have a RANGE of less than 20 miles then you are unlikely to be complying.

However if you shuffle back and forward 1 mile 25 times per year you have a RANGE of1 one mile and that suggests that you are tied to that area and are just 'bridge-hopping' and definitely not complying.

Redacted by Horace - Go to #30 for whole article.

Thanks Alan.Very interesting reading, although somewhat academic for me. I'm a continuous moorer. Not by design. Just don't get out much nowadays.

The cost of today's cruising/mooring  commented  above by others, must be daunting for those on low incomes who have to find low price accommodation out of necessity - and choose to live on a boat - only to find there are lots of rules (that must seem 'petty' to them) forcing up the cost. 

By comparison my 'half-price' permanent EOG mooring must seem cheap.

[mayalld]

15 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think that there is some caveat to this :

 

"unless they have intentionally made themselves homeless"

 

Extract from a Housing lawyer 'help line' :

 

If the local authority decide that you made yourself homeless or that you don't fit into any of the list a - o (at the top of this page), or that you have a connection with another local authority, they can refuse your application. You may then have to leave the temporary accommodation that they have found for you.

 

 

 

I really don't see the problem - if they are a 'low income family' they will get support from the LA.

 

We managed to get a Residential mooring, the boat licence and the insurance all paid for by the LA for a friend who had problems.

 

I'm sure the Baton-Twirlers would have told them how to go about claiming.

Legally speaking, they are already homeless.

 

Anybody who lives on a boat is for these purposes "homeless"

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, mayalld said:

Legally speaking, they are already homeless.

 

Anybody who lives on a boat is for these purposes "homeless"

Of course that is correct - supported by :

 

A guy in our marina suffered a stroke and required the help of specialist support, wheelchair etc etc.

The LA said they could not (would not) provide the necessary services unless they moved into one of their 'warden aided bungalows', after about 6 months of him and his wife struggling to get him on & off the boat he 'gave in' and they were forced to move ashore, after a couple of years he had made a 'fair' recovery but was still unable to do much unassisted and has remained in the bungalow since.

After about 4 years of non-use the boat (GRP Cruiser) was starting to get the abandoned look and damp inside and we managed to sell it on at a pittance.

[cuthound]

8 hours ago, Horace42 said:

Thanks Alan.Very interesting reading, although somewhat academic for me. I'm a continuous moorer. Not by design. Just don't get out much nowadays.

The cost of today's cruising/mooring  commented  above by others, must be daunting for those on low incomes who have to find low price accommodation out of necessity - and choose to live on a boat - only to find there are lots of rules (that must seem 'petty' to them) forcing up the cost. 

By comparison my 'half-price' permanent EOG mooring must seem cheap.

 

The problem with having a cheap half price EoG mooring is that you have to buy the house that comes with it! ?

[doratheexplorer]

17.7 miles a year works out at an average of 84 yards a day.  No matter which way you cut it, that's gonna be difficult to 'convince the board' that you are using the boat bona-fide for navigation.  A 20 mile range doesn't mean you do 20 miles a year.  I would think you'd probably need to be doing nearer 100 miles a year in the range to be sure that you don't come onto the enforcement radar.

 

I'm now curious as to how many miles I've done this year.  I suspect it's a little more than 17.7 miles.

[doratheexplorer]

Edit:  I've done around 350 miles this year so far, single handing, with a full time job.  That's not showing off (I'm sure many have done far more), but it illustrates just how pathetic 17.7 miles is.

[Andrew Denny]

On 01/09/2019 at 00:19, TheBiscuits said:

Mr Holder said he had travelled 17.7 miles, moving every two weeks, and had pictures to prove it.

 

Then he is an idiot.  Half an hour's further cruising over the last 6 months would have let him comply with CRT's minimum acceptable range.  And let him keep his family home roughly where he wanted it.

 

20 miles is a day's cruise for me.  A short day.

That's 5 hours - assuming you travelled at a steady 4mph, including through locks and past moored boats....

[David Schweizer]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

The problem with having a cheap half price EoG mooring is that you have to buy the house that comes with it! ?

Not neccesarily, I rented, what was legally, an end of garden mooring from the property owner, which cost less than a towpath mooring from C&RT in the same area.

[peterboat]

This morning it was on my google feed, the boat in question is a widebeam boat and looks in very good condition from the pictures, now the question is could it not be sold and housing bought in a different area? Anyway it may answer why mooring is expensive as some marinas charge for 2 spaces for a widebeam mine doesnt] What has been brought up is are they employed? if not they really can move to an area where moorings are cheaper to save their lifestyle

[doratheexplorer]

25 minutes ago, Andrew Denny said:

That's 5 hours - assuming you travelled at a steady 4mph, including through locks and past moored boats....

Show me the canal where you can average 4 mph including locks?  Even without locks 4 mph is caning it, and probably unachievable on many shallower canals.

[Andrew Denny]

8 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

Not neccesarily, I rented, what was legally, an end of garden mooring from the property owner, which cost less than a towpath mooring from C&RT in the same area.

Is an EoG mooring allowed to be sublet?

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Edit:  I've done around 350 miles this year so far, single handing, with a full time job.  That's not showing off (I'm sure many have done far more), but it illustrates just how pathetic 17.7 miles is.

I've done just short of 400 miles this year, also singled handed and also with a full time job. However, I don't have kids and work remotely, so it's not really a fair comparison, certainly for me, I don't know about your situation.

 

I went to a festival this weekend, Billy Bragg was on the lineup. Now I personally love his music and his politics align with mine but one thing he said that particularly rang true was that what we're lacking in today's society is empathy. This thread is a prime example of a lack of empathy. Everyone is incredibly quick to judge and point fingers. To be fair, I think my previous comment on this thread showed a lack of empathy on my part too.

[tree monkey]

4 minutes ago, NB Caelmiri said:

I've done just short of 400 miles this year, also singled handed and also with a full time job. However, I don't have kids and work remotely, so it's not really a fair comparison, certainly for me, I don't know about your situation.

 

I went to a festival this weekend, Billy Bragg was on the lineup. Now I personally love his music and his politics align with mine but one thing he said that particularly rang true was that what we're lacking in today's society is empathy. This thread is a prime example of a lack of empathy. Everyone is incredibly quick to judge and point fingers. To be fair, I think my previous comment on this thread showed a lack of empathy on my part too.

Off topic a touch but I've seen BB play a fair few times, good isn't he

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, NB Caelmiri said:

I've done just short of 400 miles this year, also singled handed and also with a full time job. However, I don't have kids and work remotely, so it's not really a fair comparison, certainly for me, I don't know about your situation.

 

I went to a festival this weekend, Billy Bragg was on the lineup. Now I personally love his music and his politics align with mine but one thing he said that particularly rang true was that what we're lacking in today's society is empathy. This thread is a prime example of a lack of empathy. Everyone is incredibly quick to judge and point fingers. To be fair, I think my previous comment on this thread showed a lack of empathy on my part too.

They have had it seems 14 years of doing a couple of miles a year, now they have been caught, their will have been emails and letters aplenty, none of what is happening will have been a surprise, but it seems that NBTA and the papers put a different spin on it for their own reasons, whereas  CRT have a system to run and fairly easy rules for moving to enforce [I have covered more miles in my electric boat over a weekend] so in the end empathy does sort of wear a bit thin

[Horace42]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

The problem with having a cheap half price EoG mooring is that you have to buy the house that comes with it! ?

 

13 minutes ago, Andrew Denny said:

Is an EoG mooring allowed to be sublet?

A simple interesting question, but I guess it has a complicated answer.

[frangar]

10 minutes ago, NB Caelmiri said:

I've done just short of 400 miles this year, also singled handed and also with a full time job. However, I don't have kids and work remotely, so it's not really a fair comparison, certainly for me, I don't know about your situation.

 

I went to a festival this weekend, Billy Bragg was on the lineup. Now I personally love his music and his politics align with mine but one thing he said that particularly rang true was that what we're lacking in today's society is empathy. This thread is a prime example of a lack of empathy. Everyone is incredibly quick to judge and point fingers. To be fair, I think my previous comment on this thread showed a lack of empathy on my part too.

Why do they deserve any empathy?? They are just making life harder for those who take the time to abide by the rules...and that’s me being polite...if it was down to me they would have been made to move or get off the cut long ago.  

[David Schweizer]

29 minutes ago, Andrew Denny said:

Is an EoG mooring allowed to be sublet?

Can you think of a reason why it should not be allowed? it is privately owned land. The only reasons I can think of are if mooring a boat would cause an obstruction to navigation, or if the property's deeds forbid it.  There was a time when BW tried to claim that they owned the first three feet of the bank side, which in most cases is not correct. Again it depends on what is quoted in the deeds or any conditions contained within the original Enabling Act

 

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by David Schweizer

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Off topic a touch but I've seen BB play a fair few times, good isn't he

He was! Really good!

2 minutes ago, frangar said:

Why do they deserve any empathy?? They are just making life harder for those who take the time to abide by the rules...and that’s me being polite...if it was down to me they would have been made to move or get off the cut long ago.  

Well done, you've made point exactly. ?

[carlt]

2 minutes ago, frangar said:

They are just making life harder for those who take the time to abide by the rules...

 

I've wracked my brains and, nope, I can't think of a single way they have made my life harder. 

That is not to say CRT shouldn't go through the due process of enforcement.

 

It's just none of my business. 

[Horace42]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

The problem with having a cheap half price EoG mooring is that you have to buy the house that comes with it! ?

Yes. That is one of the 'rules'......