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Wiltshire canal boat family face eviction 'for not moving enough'


David Mack

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2 minutes ago, rgreg said:

I agree: CRT's approach to compliance does seem to be far too accommodating and light-touch, probably due to some extent to the vociferous reactions of the hard-done-by P-takers and their supporters. I appreciate that the law is not entirely helpful in getting these issues quickly resolved but I don't see the need to pussy-foot around these people to such an extent. 

 

Oh and I forgot to mention the way they go to court for a court order to lift a liveaboard too. That adds another year or two to the process. 

 

I note the BBC failed mention the court order. If there is one.

 

If there isn't, Mr and Mrs Holder are free to continue piss-taking for another couple of years.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I wonder if Mr Holder knows the difference between distance travelled and 'range' ?

 

If he has travelled a total of 17.7 miles in a year, that could be :

Point A  then 600 yards to point B, then 600 yards back to Point A …………………. Repeat …………………………...

I am not aware of the subtle legal nuances of range and distance traveled, although I can guess, but whatever measurement method is used, is a difference in distance of 2.3 miles the basis on which a successful depends.

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47 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Let's not forget though we are reading an article written by someone who likely has no knowledge of the canals and then edited by someone else who is also likely to be unfamiliar with the issues involved.

 

Let's also not forget the reporter was probably keen to produce a 'story', so probably listened to Mr Holder's biased story and swallowed it whole thinking what a great article it would make. Then decided he ought to approach CRT 'for balance' and got the rather sketchy statement from Matthew Simmons, possibly by email. 

 

So I agree there is probably whole back story still to come out, one which might well make CRT look like highly reasonable in what they are doing!!

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Horace42 said:

I am not aware of the subtle legal nuances of range and distance traveled, although I can guess, but whatever measurement method is used, is a difference in distance of 2.3 miles the basis on which a successful depends.

If you walk down to your local shop 1 mile away, and then walk back home, your DISTANCE is 2 miles, but your RANGE is one mile.

 

If you do that every day for a month then your DISTANCE will be 60 miles but your RANGE will still be only 1 mile.

 

C&RT have 'suggested' that if you have a RANGE of less than 20 miles then you are unlikely to be complying.

However if you shuffle back and forward 1 mile 25 times per year you have a RANGE of1 one mile and that suggests that you are tied to that area and are just 'bridge-hopping' and definitely not complying.

 

Here’s what we’re looking for when we’re seeing if a boat meets our expectations for bona fide
navigation:
 Range: We look at the furthest points a boat has visited over the year, not just the total
distance. While the British Waterways Act does not stipulate a distance, boaters often ask us
to give them some indication of how they need to travel. We’ve said that it is very unlikely that
anyone travelling a range of less than 20 miles (32km) would be able to satisfy us that they are
bona fide navigating and that normally we would expect a greater range. If you’re cruising in a
smaller range than this you may run into trouble when it comes to renewing your licence.
 Overstaying: We check how often boats overstay, either for longer than 14 days on regular
(unsigned) stretches of the canal, or for shorter periods at places like visitor or short stay
moorings, where a sign will tell you what the time limit is. Many boaters will occasionally need
to stay somewhere for longer due to breakdown, illness or other emergencies, so we look at
overstays in light of the overall pattern of range and movement pattern. If you let us know
when there is a pressing need for you to stay somewhere for a little longer, talk to us. Every
year we grant hundreds of approved overstays, but we need to hear from you to be able to do
so.

 

Movement: Continuous Cruiser Licences have always been intended for bona fide (genuine)
navigation around our waterways, not for staying in a small area. They were originally added
to the British Waterways Act 1995 as a group of very passionate boaters argued that, because
they continuously cruised around such a large extent of our network, it wouldn’t be fair or
necessary to require them to have a home mooring as a condition of their boat licence. As well
as establishing an acceptable range we’re also looking for boats to be generally on the move
within that overall range: for example if a boat stayed in a five mile area for most of their licence
and then went on one 60-mile trip over the course of two weeks, they’d be unlikely to meet our
requirements for bona fide navigation. We don’t want to set a rigid pattern and we know that
sometimes boats will turn round every so often if they reach the end of a canal, revisit a favourite spot once in a while or go back to refuel etc.

 

What happens if someone can’t meet the movement requirements and needs to stay in an area?
We encourage boaters to get in touch if they’re having problems moving in line with our guidance: we can only help if we know something is wrong. We issue regular reminders if a boat is overstaying and communicate actively to guide people and, if someone’s boat has broken down or they are ill, we can arrange for a boat to stay a little longer in an area whilst this is resolved. But it would be neither fair nor feasible to apply this to everyone who wants to confine their movement to a small area indefinitely, for potentially very long term reasons like work or school.
If a boater wants to stay in a particular area then they will not be continuously cruising and this type of licence is not right for them and they should consider obtaining a home mooring.

 

What about families – isn’t it difficult for those with kids to continuously cruise?
The Trust understands that boaters with children of school age may have more of a need to stay in one area close to a child’s nursery or school.

In general we don’t believe that we can simply waive our licence requirements (i.e. to navigate throughout the licence period) by allowing all parents with school-aged children to remain permanently in the area of the school, given that their children may attend a particular school for many years. The choice to be on a boat without a home mooring being at the individual’s discretion.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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14 minutes ago, Horace42 said:

I am not aware of the subtle legal nuances of range and distance traveled, although I can guess, but whatever measurement method is used, is a difference in distance of 2.3 miles the basis on which a successful depends.

No, but I think the gist was that if you were cruising a range greater than 20 miles, you'd probably be OK, less than that you're taking the wotsit. It can't be a legal definition. 

Crossed with Alan's. 

Edited by Arthur Marshall
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1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

It seem unlikely that CRT would not have written him about nine letters explaining...

 

 

Here is an update on C&RTs CC Monitoring programme :

 

(Last year)

 

New ‘continuous cruisers’

In November, we reached the first anniversary of our programme to actively advise new licence holders of the requirements of their licence. We have now begun to send out letters to those new continuous cruisers coming to the end of the first year who have failed to meet the requirements over the past year (despite regular reminders of their obligations as boaters without a home mooring), informing them that we’ll not be renewing their licence.

Since January, 792 new continuous cruisers have received welcome letters, and we have been providing them with regular feedback if we have been concerned about their movement patterns. 63 are now in the enforcement process with a further 83 contacted to say we are concerned. Of these, we’ve contacted 23 with regard to refusing to renew their licences.

So it looks like a goodly percentage of new CCers are 'satisfying' C&RT and those that don't are not getting their licences renewed

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1 hour ago, David Schweizer said:

 

AFAIK none of those moorings permit residential occupation, and planning applications in the past by BW to make some of them eligible for residential mooring were fought vehemently by local residents and Local Councils.

None of which would stop Mr and Mrs CMer taking such a mooring while living on their boat, but also leaving the mooring from time to time and travelling up to 17.7 miles away.

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40 minutes ago, David Mack said:

None of which would stop Mr and Mrs CMer taking such a mooring while living on their boat, but also leaving the mooring from time to time and travelling up to 17.7 miles away.

 

If he had a mooring he wouldn't need to travel at all.

 

But he is not prepared to pay for (cannot afford) a mooring.

He has registered / licensed as 'a boat with no home mooring' (CCer in every day language)

 

Mr Holder said a permanent mooring could cost as much as £6,000 per year, plus the cost of a permanent licence at £1,000.

"This prices most of us out. So they go to wealthy people so they can have a holiday boat, only used for a couple of weeks a year," he said.

 

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If he had a mooring he wouldn't need to travel at all.

 

But he is not prepared to pay for (cannot afford) a mooring.

He has registered / licensed as 'a boat with no home mooring' (CCer in every day language)

 

Mr Holder said a permanent mooring could cost as much as £6,000 per year, plus the cost of a permanent licence at £1,000.

"This prices most of us out. So they go to wealthy people so they can have a holiday boat, only used for a couple of weeks a year," he said.

 

 

 

 

 

But thi is a silly position to take, because now (assuming they really do lift his boat, which seems unlikely on the available evidence), he will have to rent say a flat, for guess how much.... 

 

Yes, about £7k a year.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

But thi is a silly position to take, because now (assuming they really do lift his boat, which seems unlikely on the available evidence), he will have to rent say a flat, for guess how much.... 

 

Yes, about £7k a year.

 

 

I doubt there are many flats for a family at £7k per year in that area.

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3 minutes ago, frangar said:

When did it become a thing to feel entitled to live in a particular area....I’d quite like an apartment in the Barbican so I can stay when I work in london...but I doubt if anyone is going to let me have it for free! 

Most people seem to want to stay where they grew up, or where they have worked for some time. When you have kids, you don't want to shiift them about too much if you can avoid it. It's pretty normal, really. Of the people I know, there's only one other who has moved around as much as I have (9 towns so far). You can't blame people for wanting it, but it still doesn't give them the right to it. 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Mr Holder said a permanent mooring could cost as much as £6,000 per year, plus the cost of a permanent licence at £1,000.

"This prices most of us out. So they go to wealthy people so they can have a holiday boat, only used for a couple of weeks a year," he said.

 

 

 

 

And in that couple of weeks will cover a much greater mileage and range than Mr Holder.

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Yes, about £7k a year.

 

53 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

I doubt there are many flats for a family at £7k per year in that area.

Local authorities have a legal obligation to accommodate a homeless family if they have children.

 

As far as I'm aware they can't do anything until the the family is in a position where homelessness is inevitable but as soon as the are they will set in place emergency accommodation, usually this is a bed & breakfast or small cheap hotel, the children can't stay there more than two weeks so they then have to move them into semipermanent emergency accommodation, this is usually a furnished council house set a side for very short term lets until a permanent council house can be given to the family. So with in two to four months the family will have a permanent council house. 

 

I know council waiting lists are normally really really long but in the case of children becoming homeless this is the usual practice. 

 

As for rent being £7k pa a council house is usually a lot less than average rents in an area. A friend of mine has a lovely 3 bed semi detached in and expensive area and she only pays £70ish a week so about half of that £7k. 

 

 

I am in no way saying that this family made themselves homeless on purpose to get a council house. 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

Local authorities have a legal obligation to accommodate a homeless family if they have children.

I think that there is some caveat to this :

 

"unless they have intentionally made themselves homeless"

 

Extract from a Housing lawyer 'help line' :

 

If the local authority decide that you made yourself homeless or that you don't fit into any of the list a - o (at the top of this page), or that you have a connection with another local authority, they can refuse your application. You may then have to leave the temporary accommodation that they have found for you.

 

 

 

I really don't see the problem - if they are a 'low income family' they will get support from the LA.

 

We managed to get a Residential mooring, the boat licence and the insurance all paid for by the LA for a friend who had problems.

 

I'm sure the Baton-Twirlers would have told them how to go about claiming.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

"unless they have intentionally made themselves homeless"

I don't think that applies where children are concerned, though it is very true for people with out children. But if you flaunt the rules blatantly and your children are placed in a situation deemed unacceptable then the authorities can remove the children and accommodate them in care. 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Tumshie said:

I don't think that applies where children are concerned, though it is very true for people with out children. But if you flaunt the rules blatantly and your children are placed in a situation deemed unacceptable then the authorities can remove the children and accommodate them in care. 

 

 

 

 

I don't know enough about it - only what you see / hear on TV "bad landlord / bad tenant" type programmes.

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I bet the total floor area is bigger than their boat...

 

 

But must admit, those dims really ARE tiny!!

 

 

 

Easy to put metres in the feet box of your software :)

 

i occasionally did it the other way round, putting feet in the metres box. Got some huge, and apparently very cheap, properties onto the market for up to half a day or so from time to time :) 

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