Inland Cruisers?

[carlt]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

That's interesting, I was unaware solar panels were even available 25 year ago. I first noticed them about 15 years back and dismissed them out of hand as they cost nosebleed money, like £300 for  80w IIRC. 

 

I'm surprised a solar panel small enough to fit on a 27ft Dawncraft can keep any absorption technology 'cooler' running. What exactly was your "absorption cooler" please? Sounds very interesting. Absorption fridges are known as battery killers for very good reason. 

 

 

Always happy to educate. 

I bought my first solar panel in 1995 to power a small shed light and the first one for the boat in 97. 

The 25 years was referring to the 1950s heater and the late 80s Coleman cooler. 

 

You may be confusing absorption coolers (mine is 80 Watts and rarely comes on even in the hot weather we've had ) with the real battery killers, thermoelectric, which run constantly at about 150 to 200 Watts. 

As I said chest coolers are way more efficient than vertical fridges and I could explain the relevant physics to you but that may be a bit patronising. 

 

My first boat solar setup was 3x120W panels from the late lamented maplins, BTW. 

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, carlt said:

Always happy to educate. 

 

Always keen to learn. I'm curious though. Could you post up an example perhaps, please?

 

The only "Coleman Cooler" I found by by googling is an unpowered coolbox, here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Coleman-Xtreme-Litres-Performance-Camping/dp/B000G64I1A/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=2978748469&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&keywords=coleman+cooler&qid=1567163874&s=gateway&sr=8-1

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, carlt said:

You may be confusing absorption coolers (mine is 80 Watts and rarely comes on even in the hot weather we've had ) with the real battery killers, thermoelectric,

 

I think it is you who is confusing the terms! Coolboxes usually use thermoelectric Peltier cells.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling

 

 

n my opinion both thermoelectric (Peltier) cells and proper absorption cycle refrigerators are battery killers. A top opening absorption cycle fridge would probably use a lot less less power than the usual front openers by firms like Dometic, agreed. 

 

[carlt]

24 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

 

The only "Coleman Cooler" I found... 

 

 

 

 

I think it is you who is confusing the terms! Coolboxes usually use thermoelectric Peltier cells.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling

 

 

n my opinion both thermoelectric (Peltier) cells and proper absorption cycle refrigerators are battery killers. A top opening absorption cycle fridge would probably use a lot less less power than the usual front openers by firms like Dometic, agreed. 

 

No confusion here. 

I own a Coleman chest fridge though they stopped making them years ago but dometic took over and still sell the same design. 

In all the time I've had it I have never killed a battery. 

[ditchcrawler]

15 minutes ago, carlt said:

No confusion here. 

I own a Coleman chest fridge though they stopped making them years ago but dometic took over and still sell the same design. 

In all the time I've had it I have never killed a battery. 

Not putting back what you take out kills the batteries even with small loads

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

In my opinion both thermoelectric (Peltier) cells and proper absorption cycle refrigerators are battery killers. A top opening absorption cycle fridge would probably use a lot less less power than the usual front openers by firms like Dometic, agreed. 

 

 

Isn't that because the Dometic ones and their Electrolux predecessors were 3 way fridges (gas, mains & 12v dc), designed for the caravan market?

 

The 12 volt supply was intended for keeping the fridge cool whilst the caravan was being towed by the car to the campsite, and thus didnt have a thermostat. Not needed because once at the campsite either gas or mains electricity would be used.

 

The industrial absorption fridges (using hot water heated by the waste heat of a Stirling Engine) that I am familiar with generally used less energy (kW heat compared to kW electrical) than a compressor fridge of the same rating.

Edited August 30, 2019 by cuthound
Clarification

[Graham Bowers]

I've had a 25 foot long 6 foot 10 inch beam GRP cruiser for over 10 years, a Wavey Rider Elite - not many around.

 

Here is a bit about it that may prompt some things to think about.

 

We use it for leisure only, up to a couple of weeks spring to autumn. I do jobs in the winter sometimes and it can be cold unless the heating is on. The hull was sound, however it's been rewired, re-plumbed and had a new gas system. Despite having a boat safety certificate, the gas system had lots of un-necessary straight connections and they had been applied with red jointing compound. The wiring was a rat's nest of bell-wire. The simple water pump was powered through a switch that had to be held on to get cold water, i.e. not a pressurised system.

 

Engine is a 10 HP Honda 4 stroke outboard that has can produce 10 Amps DC at nominal 12V for battery charging. It takes 4 hours daily running the keep the batteries charged when we are out cruising . (2 leisure, 1 engine start). I don't run the engine for charging alone if we are moored up and on-board for days. I usually use a Honda suitcase generator in that case for an hour or so a day. The fridge is the biggest drain on the batteries.

 

Petrol is a bit of a pest however I use the internet to find petrol stations. I have a collapsible sack barrow. Spare petrol is stored in the outboard "compartment" so any petrol vapour can drain overboard. It's a no-no to store it where vapours could end up in the bilge, for example, and potentially ignite.

 

Heating is a propex, room sealed. It's quite noisy however doesn't get left on at night when we are in bed as the gas is turned off at night.

I'm in the process of installing Celotex thermal insulation as part of a running re-fit so the propex doesn't have to run as much. I'm not sure how many cruisers are insulated however it's worth asking the question for any boats you consider.

 

Hot and cold water. A Shurflo pump and accumulator feed a cold tap and a Morco instantaneous water heater that in turn feeds a hot tap and a shower.

 

Refrigeration is a 12 Volt Shoreline coolbox which has a conventional fridge compressor, so not absorption or peltier technologies; they don't seem to be available any more, although there seem to be competitive offerings.

 

I have had a couple of rainwater water leaks where seals on holes in the roof for rails had failed. Easy to fix, once you find the source. Trouble is, the water can appear some distance from where it gained entry.

 

I replaced the sliding window fabric runners with flocked rubber as the woven tape runners at the bottom had rotted. But it's a bit thick so the windows take some moving. I have something else to try.

 

Handling in wind can be interesting however I wouldn't let that put you off. Just stay moored if it's bad.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

[carlt]

6 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Always keen to learn. I'm curious though. Could you post up an example perhaps, please?

 

I think it is you who is confusing the terms! Coolboxes usually use thermoelectric Peltier cells.

 

 

Happy to oblige... 

 

 

Dometic 3 way chest cooler. 

 

Modern version of mine except that it is 85W whereas mine is 75W.

 

Probably more thirsty due to some poxy eu  law. 

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by carlt

[MtB]

3 hours ago, carlt said:

 

Happy to oblige... 

 

 

Dometic 3 way chest cooler. 

 

Modern version of mine except that it is 85W whereas mine is 75W.

 

Probably more thirsty due to some poxy eu  law. 

 

 

 

 

Brilliant, thank you!

 

Can't find it on the Dometic website though. What model is it please? 

 

The dometic website is well worth a trawl through by the way, truly AMAZINGLY MAHOOSIVE range of products. I had no idea!!!

 

https://www.dometic.com/en-us/us

[carlt]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

 

Brilliant, thank you!

 

Can't find it on the Dometic website though. What model is it please? 

 

The dometic website is well worth a trawl through by the way, truly AMAZINGLY MAHOOSIVE range of products. I had no idea!!!

 

https://www.dometic.com/en-us/us

 

Here's one on Amazon:

 

Clicky

 

They really are very good.

 

Mine is on the lowest setting and still produces ice cubes on the heat exchanger thingy through the summer.

 

I use it on gas when camping and the Solar 12 volt on the boat (though I'm on hook up in the marina at the moment).

 

Last year we had 2x100W panels that just about kept up with it when we were on a mooring with no hook up, helped by going boating of course. Another panel would definitely be enough but there is less room on this boat for solar than the Dawncraft owing to the blumming great mast and boom in the way.

 

It's over 20 years old and still going strong despite having been abused over the years so I can definitely attest to their longevity.

 

 

 

 

 

[MtB]

44 minutes ago, carlt said:

Here's one on Amazon:

 

Clicky

 

They really are very good.

 

Brill, thanks! I had no idea such things existed.

 

And half the price of a proper compressor fridge too!

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

1 hour ago, carlt said:

there is less room on this boat for solar than the Dawncraft owing to the blumming great mast and boom in the way.

I'm looking forward to good thin film solar - so you can have your sail made out of a solar panel.  Acres of free electric when out sailing ...

 

There are a few putting solar panels on normal sails at the moment.  It will break them on roller sails though!

[lampini]

12 hours ago, carlt said:

 

Here's one on Amazon:

 

Clicky

 

They really are very good.

 

Mine is on the lowest setting and still produces ice cubes on the heat exchanger thingy through the summer.

 

I use it on gas when camping and the Solar 12 volt on the boat (though I'm on hook up in the marina at the moment).

 

Last year we had 2x100W panels that just about kept up with it when we were on a mooring with no hook up, helped by going boating of course. Another panel would definitely be enough but there is less room on this boat for solar than the Dawncraft owing to the blumming great mast and boom in the way.

 

It's over 20 years old and still going strong despite having been abused over the years so I can definitely attest to their longevity.

 

 

 

 

 

We have one too! Is it worth plumbing it in to the 12v then?

 

I was given the impression that it wouldn’t save much power as on 12v the fridge is on max - sort of bypasses the “1-7” control.. we inherited it with the boat and without a manual. 

 

The previous owner had it plumbed into the 240 shoreline/inverter system and we just left it like that.. 

 

He also had some awesome Chinese leisure batteries (really really heavy to remove) that he got from a mate who was setting up a solar farm. They lasted for years, but I had to replace them with ordinary sealed leisure batteries last year.

 

Big difference! 

 

So so if I can save some amps by running it from 12v I’d be grateful! 

Sorry to hijack the thread.. ?

 

Eta - nope, I found a pdf manual - don’t think I’ll be saving much if anything by running it on 12v..

 

As you were! 

Edited August 31, 2019 by lampini

[Alan de Enfield]

I'm getting confused (again)

 

The one in the Amazon link says the same as the old 3-way Electrolux fridges "The absorption coolers runs on a 12-volt supply in the vehicle, on 230-volt mains supply at home or on a campsite, and can easily be switched to gas operation at remote locations" which to me suggests only to use it when the engine is running. (That was actually stated in the Electrolux manual)

 

In the specifications it says "thermostat regulation in 230v mode", implying that it is not thermostatically controlled in 12v mode - if that is the case will it not be running continuously 85 watts = roughly 7amps continuous ?

 

Obviously those that have one will know what it draws - but - is the one you ( @carlt) have really identical ?

 

 

Edit to add : having now read the owners manual (a link in the Amazon advert) it makes a couple of interesting statements :

 

1) This must NOT be used on gas in a boat or caravan that is moving

 

2) Do not use it if the engine is not running or it will flatten the batteries.

 

3) Energy Consumption at 12v = 170Ah per day

 

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[lampini]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

In the specifications it says "thermostat regulation in 230v mode", implying that it is not thermostatically controlled in 12v mode - if that is the case will it not be running continuously 85 watts = roughly 7amps continuous ?

 

Obviously those that have one will know what it draws - but - is the one you have really identical ?

Sounds about right - when it clicks in while running off our inverter it shows as drawing 7-8a, we r lucky and our inverter only takes about 1/2a to run itself..

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, lampini said:

We have one too! Is it worth plumbing it in to the 12v then?

 

I was given the impression that it wouldn’t save much power as on 12v the fridge is on max - sort of bypasses the “1-7” control.. we inherited it with the boat and without a manual. 

 

The previous owner had it plumbed into the 240 shoreline/inverter system and we just left it like that.. 

 

He also had some awesome Chinese leisure batteries (really really heavy to remove) that he got from a mate who was setting up a solar farm. They lasted for years, but I had to replace them with ordinary sealed leisure batteries last year.

 

Big difference! 

 

So so if I can save some amps by running it from 12v I’d be grateful! 

Sorry to hijack the thread.. ?

 

Eta - nope, I found a pdf manual - don’t think I’ll be saving much if anything by running it on 12v..

 

As you were! 

What inverter do you have for the 230 volts thats on 24/7

[W+T]

On 30/08/2019 at 10:32, NervousPervous said:

Thanks for all your replies everyone. I went away and did a lot more googling into the wee hours last night and have picked up a few snags about GRPs that I shall have a ponder on - the lack of heating being one and the difficulty handling being another (and one rather terrifying one about being prone to leaks which I hadn't really anticipated). I really need to get some experience with both a GRP and a Narrowboat before I decide. Think I will leave the one in Norfolk for now until I've done that but thanks for the surveyor tips. 

 

As usual all goes off topic hey guys .

 

 

Heating is easy to overcome, fit either a Propex LPG heater, easy to fit or the cheaper Chinese diesel heaters, another fuel to think of but that can be had when you get petrol if you get an outboard.

 

The diesel heaters, get a 2kw-3kw as they are best run full power as if you get the higher outputs and run lower output they can coke up.  

 

Or the Propex , lot more expensive but excellent kits. two power outputs. And you already have LPG on board.  

 

https://www.propexheatsource.co.uk/heaters/hs2000

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2KW-Diesel-Air-Heater-Planar-2000W-12V-For-Motorhome-Trucks-Boats-Silencer-DM-UK/223524766110?hash=item340b1d419e:g:nrcAAOSwBxFc42BG

 

Leaks come with all boats, steel, GRP, Wood,  Ferro. All old boats will have damp. 

 

Handling, do you mean cruising a GRP, if so, dont worry, easy to do. More control than NB infact. Thry can stop and turn quicker. Even in a high wind its a matter of getting the knack and if you cruise enough you will soon pick it up. A frined recently bough a GRP boat on a whim and had never been on a  boat before,  after being on mine and within a few hours i shown him how to control the boat, two point turn in a 23 footer on a narrow canal with ease  if he can you can, he cant even drive a bloody car properly lol. 

[lampini]

5 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

What inverter do you have for the 230 volts thats on 24/7

We have a little 600w Nikkai, but it is only on when we go out cruising, the rest of the time we’re on our home moorings shoreline. We don’t use much leccy anyway - we don’t have (or want!) a telly and then it’s just laptop and phone charging and the occasional power tool. All lighting is led. The fridge is the biggest energy user by a mile!