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Gerry underwood
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I   now consider it is my duty to discharge sewage into the River Trent from my boat in order to assert my right under the terms of the environmental permitting regulations.

 

 

 

Edited by MartynG
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  • 5 months later...

It is permitted on the Yorkshire Ouse, up to Linton lock.

 

However, that is quite a different river from much of the Great Ouse or Nene. Even at summer low level there is considerable flow, the Great Ouse has depths of about 20ft (although close to Linton you have to watch out for clay mounds in the middle). Regular high flows scour out the river whenever there is considerable rainfall in the water catchment (which extends about 60miles inland). 

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51 minutes ago, Alastair said:

It is permitted on the Yorkshire Ouse, up to Linton lock.

 

I think the point of Alan's work was to show that it's actually 'permitted' (it's not against the law) in any waterway; unless I've miss-understood the posts

Edited by sirweste
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1 minute ago, sirweste said:

 

I think the point of Alan's work was to show that it's actually 'permitted' (it's not against the law) in any waterway; unless I've miss-understood the posts

It is allowed (permitted) in any waterway that doesn't have legislation forbidding it.

 

The Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2016

Meaning of “water discharge activity”

3.—(1) A “water discharge activity” means any of the following—

(a)the discharge or entry to inland freshwaters, coastal waters or relevant territorial waters of any—

(i)poisonous, noxious or polluting matter,

(ii)waste matter, or

(iii)trade effluent or sewage effluent;

(b)the discharge from land through a pipe into the sea outside the seaward limits of relevant territorial waters of any trade effluent or sewage effluent;

(c)the removal from any part of the bottom, channel or bed of any inland freshwaters of a deposit accumulated by reason of any dam, weir or sluice holding back the waters, by causing it to be carried away in suspension in the waters, unless the activity is carried on in the exercise of a power conferred by or under any enactment relating to land drainage, flood prevention or navigation;

(d)the cutting or uprooting of a substantial amount of vegetation in any inland freshwaters or so near to any such waters that it falls into them, where it is not reasonable to take steps to remove the vegetation from these waters;

(e)an activity in respect of which a notice under paragraph 4 or 5 has been served and has taken effect.

(2) A discharge or an activity that might lead to a discharge is not a “water discharge activity”—

(a)if the discharge is made, or authorised to be made, by or under any prescribed statutory provision, or

(b)if the discharge is of trade effluent or sewage effluent from a vessel.

(3) In determining whether a discharge or an activity is a water discharge activity, no account must be taken of any radioactivity possessed by any substance or article or by any part of any premises.

 

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16 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Isn't there a BWB byelaw to cover canals

Maybe you are thinking of this one ;

 

40. No person shall throw or discharge into or on to any canal any
animal (whether alive or dead) or any rubbish, stones or other
material of any kind whatsoever or deposit such materials so as
to be washed or carried into any canal by floods or other means,
or in any wise cause obstruction in any canal.

 

 

C&RTs Licence T&Cs state :

 

Whilst the Boat is on the Waterway, you must behave considerately towards others (boaters and non-boaters alike) and in particular you must not:
(a) do anything which will cause damage or nuisance to any other person or their property;
(b) use any electricity generator, including the Boat's engine, at any mooring along the Waterway between 8pm and 8am, unless you are moored in isolation, out of earshot of other people. We do not intend this Rule to stop you moving the Boat from the mooring;
(c) run the Boat’s engine in gear when it is moored as this can damage the Waterway walls and cause a nuisance to other people;
(d) discharge anything into the Waterway from the Boat except unpolluted surface water that drains naturally or water from sinks or showers, washing machines and dishwashers. We request that only phosphate-free detergents are used on board the Boat, particularly in washing machines and dish washers;

 

But as this is not a legal requirement it is unenforceable.

 

 

BSS Requirements :

 

9.2.1
Is a closeable valve fitted in the discharge line of any toilet appliance or toilet holding tank with overboard discharge?

Check all toilets and toilet holding tanks for the presence of an overboard discharge line.
If present, check for the presence and condition of a closeable valve installed in the
discharge line.

 

A diverter valve must be fitted and closed when the BSS examiner checks the boat, and the examiner must not operate the valve.

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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Folk get all wound up about human and dog shit but are casual about birds and cattle, bird shit in canals and rivers must easily outweigh other shit. 

I read somewhere that the French don't mind toilet discharge but object to holding tank discharge, a few macerated turds is a different story to several hundred of them all in one go. 

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1 hour ago, swift1894 said:

Someone told me that all the hire boats on the Canal du Midi (and there are hundreds) discharge straight into the canal. Doesn’t seem to cause any problems.

Not just the canal du midi, the hire boat we had in Brittany discharged straight to the rivers and canals. We certainly didn't drop the ropes in that holiday.

 

I expect the boat we are hiring in Belgium shortly will be the same.

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

BSS Requirements :

 

9.2.1
Is a closeable valve fitted in the discharge line of any toilet appliance or toilet holding tank with overboard discharge?

Check all toilets and toilet holding tanks for the presence of an overboard discharge line.
If present, check for the presence and condition of a closeable valve installed in the
discharge line.

 

A diverter valve must be fitted and closed when the BSS examiner checks the boat, and the examiner must not operate the valve.

 

 

 

I have only reduced your post to take up less space.

 

I've been looking at buying a sailing vessel, having not had much to do with these for years, and have become only recently more familiar with them again. I notice that some have a combined sea toilet and holding tank. Is the holding tank for use in a sea marina, the contents to be flushed through and out, once the vessel is some way out at sea? Not too sure of the formality of using the holding tank in a sea going vessel. Most don't seem to have them.

 

 

Edited by Higgs
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Just now, Higgs said:

 

I have only reduced your post to take up less space.

 

I've been looking at buying a sailing vessel, having not had much to do with these for years, and have become only recently more familiar with them again. I notice that some have a combined sea toilet and holding tank. Is the holding tank for use in a sea marina, the contents to be flushed through and out, once the vessel is some way out at see? Not too sure of the formality of using the holding tank in a sea going vessel. Most don't seem to have them.

 

 

Our boat has the set up you describe. The toilet contents always discharge into the holding tank and then you have the option of having the tank pumped out via the deck fitting or by opening a through hull fitting and using the onboard macerator pump.

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6 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Our boat has the set up you describe. The toilet contents always discharge into the holding tank and then you have the option of having the tank pumped out via the deck fitting or by opening a through hull fitting and using the onboard macerator pump.

 

The tank is only an optional extra then, for yachts?

 

 

Edited by Higgs
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1 minute ago, Naughty Cal said:

It was an optional extra on ours. You could choose to have it direct to sea/river/canal or pay extra for the tank, deck fitting and pump.

 

I assume yachts will be the same. 

 

Thank you. Judging by the number of yachts I see without these tanks, it seems to be a personal choice to have one fitted.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Thank you. Judging by the number of yachts I see without these tanks, it seems to be a personal choice to have one fitted.

 

 

I guess it depends where you plan to use the boat.

 

There were certain harbours we visited where we would not personally have been happy discharging into the crystal blue waters.

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But as this is not a legal requirement it is unenforceable.

 

 

 

 

 

except your licence would be invalidated and you would then be subject to appropriate enforcement.  ...............  i.e. excluded (or removed) from the waterway by the licensing authority, supported by the courts.  

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2 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

except your licence would be invalidated and you would then be subject to appropriate enforcement.  ...............  i.e. excluded (or removed) from the waterway by the licensing authority, supported by the courts.  

 

Aren't laws supported in court, and T&C's not necessarily so?

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Aren't laws supported in court, and T&C's not necessarily so?

 

 

We had the same discussion recently over the CRT Distance Guidance for Continuous Cruisers , as long as the Boat moves every fortnight , legally there is nothing they can do 

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1 hour ago, Higgs said:

 

The tank is only an optional extra then, for yachts?

 

 

Yes & No.

 

It depends where (and when) you intend to cruise.

Several of the Mediterranean countries have passed laws regarding the release of not only sewage into the Sea, but GREY water also. These are monitored very tightly and big fines imposed.

You register your boat and all of your pump-outs are measured and recorded, if you don't pump-out as much as you 'should' since the previous pump-out then you are 'in trouble'.

 

More and more Med countries are looking at imposing similar rules, but at the moment Turkey is the country most vigorously applying them (having passed laws making it a criminal act)

 

Many boats in Europe are now being built (our cruiser included) with both Black and Grey tanks to make them 'future-proof'.

 

According to Turkish Environmental Law it is prohibited to release directly or indirectly any kind of waste or leftovers into the environment. The Turkish Environmental law seems to have given 'any kind of waste' a very broad meaning and thus includes grey water as a pollutant. Where there is possibility of pollution, any authorised personnel are obliged to prevent the pollution and the individuals causing the pollution are obliged to take the necessary precautions to minimise any effect thereof. 
 
The Turkish Authorities regard any kind of waste as a pollutant. Further article 181/182 of the new Turkish Criminal Code No.52371 provides for imprisonment for intentional or negligent pollution of the environment. 
 
Examples of recent cases :

1) In a recent Gard case, Turkish Authorities imposed a large fine due to pollution by grey water (galley water) discharged into the sea while the ship was at berth. The port authority inspectors most likely became aware of the discharge and took samples whilst the dirty water was being discharged overboard from cabins’ bathrooms. 

 

2) Another case involved a vessel leaving berth in a Turkish port for the anchorage area. Whilst the crew was washing the compass deck and bridge wing with a fire hose, the port authority inspector came alongside the vessel and took some samples of the sea water on both the starboard and port side scuppers of the vessel. The result was that the ship was fined due to dirty water (oil, dust residues and some foreign materials) on deck leaking into the sea.  
 

From the RYA website :

 

The Mediterranean

Spain

Spain has holding tank requirements which together with their pollution legislation, essentially mean that vessels cannot discharge untreated sewage within Spanish territorial waters (12 nautical miles). The Spanish legislation is ORDEN FOM/1144/2003, 28 April which for anyone who speaks Spanish can be found at www.fomento.es and an unofficial translation of the legislation is also available.

Greece

In Greece the regulations relating to discharges and pollution make a holding tank a practical necessity although we are not aware of them being a legal requirement as yet. Caution should also be exerted with grey water in Greece.

Turkey

Discharge of any kind may be considered illegal. A black water tank has therefore been a practical necessity in Turkey for many years. New rules have been coming into force in some areas of Turkey (such as the Mugla District) over the last few years which require vessels to carry a Blue Card. If the rules are enforced to the full all black and grey water will need to be collected and pumped out ashore; the Blue Card will be used to monitor the amount of waste water deposited ashore to ensure holding tanks are pumped out rather than emptied into the sea.  

France

French law requires that as of 1 January 2008 new vessels, whether French or foreign flagged, are fitted with a treatment system or retention tank for black water if they wish to have access to French maritime or river ports, moorings and anchorages. 

Users of older vessels which are not equipped with treatment systems or holding tanks for black water are, like all other pleasure yacht users, required to comply with the rules which prohibit discharge in ports and designated anchoring spots. They must therefore use shore toilets.

How these rules are to be applied or enforced is not very clear but it is anticipated that guidelines or a further law defining the extent and manner of application and any sanctions will be issued in the future.

In principle it is forbidden to flush toilets into canals and rivers, but as pump out facilities are few and far between until now discreet overboard discharging has been tolerated, this may of course change.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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55 minutes ago, Parahandy said:

We had the same discussion recently over the CRT Distance Guidance for Continuous Cruisers , as long as the Boat moves every fortnight , legally there is nothing they can do 

if the boat discharges waste in contravention of the T&C's then the licence can be withdrawn by CRT.  How can you argue against that?  AFAIK it is not about subjective interpretation like CC'ing, it is about hard facts and clear contravention.

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2 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

if the boat discharges waste in contravention of the T&C's then the licence can be withdrawn by CRT.  How can you argue against that?  AFAIK it is not about subjective interpretation like CC'ing, it is about hard facts and clear contravention.

But, legally, they cannot revoke the licence, if they do, then the boater then simply applies for another licence which C&RT have admitted they cannot refuse to issue if you meet the 3-criteria (with the T&Cs not being one of the three)

 

Kindly posted by Nigel Moore 20/7/17

 

The comments by the previous Waterways Ombudsman are very much to the point in this respect – “British Waterways themselves can sometimes interpret legislation in different ways depending on what suits them in a particular case”. [page 16 of her 2010-2011 Report]

http://www.waterways-ombudsman.org/media/1016/annualreports201to11final.pdf

CaRT’s submissions to the Mayor of London’s Report on mooring problems in London contains the accurate admission: “People enjoy the right to put a boat on our waterways, providing that they pay the necessary fee, that the boat meets safety standards and has insurance cover for third party liabilities – and that, unless it is used ‘bona fide’ for navigation throughout the period of consent, it must have a home mooring (somewhere where the boat ‘can lawfully be kept when not being used for navigation’2 ).”

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/gla_migrate_files_destination/Combined responses_Part1_0.pdf  [see page 10]

This was more explicitly enunciated in  CaRT’s “Overview of statutory framework”, page 6, which acknowledges clearly enough:  –

The British Waterways Act 1995 limits to three specific criteria our ability to refuse to licence a boat.”   [my emphasis]

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/1127.pdf

They go on, however, in their submission to the GLA, to inaccurately claim [in effective contradiction of the above quoted public statement] that revocation of the licence with subsequent s.8 removal “is the only sanction available to us in respect of a breach in licence terms.” [page 12 of the GLA Report pack on Responses in the link above] Insofar as any breach of non-statutory terms can naturally have no sanction applicable, this would explain the s.8 process chosen - albeit with no legal justification whatsoever - while any breach of approved byelaws etc contains within the legislation the accompanying legislated sanction – which does NOT include revocation of a licence. If a sanction is not legislated for, then the claimed legal outrage does not exist and such T&C’s are – as acknowledged to Parliament by BW in the debates over the 1990 Bill – mere guidance without the force of law.

Revoking a licence can only be enabled upon breach of the s.17 conditions, exactly as, admitted by them above, refusing a licence can only be enabled by failure to meet those conditions.

 

 

In short, where the 1995 Act has expressly limited grounds for refusal/revocation of a licence to 3 specific conditions, then the issue of the licence CANNOT legally be subjected to compliance with anything else.

 

 

Where, under byelaw making powers passed on to CaRT by the terms of their Statutory Instrument, conditions of use of the waterways by licensed boats may still be added to, the relevant statutory procedure must be followed – but those, as with existing byelaws, could only govern use of the waterways by licensed boats, they could never be tied to issue or revocation of the licence. Any attempt to portray them as something issue and retention of the licence is subject to, is blatant falsehood.

The law quite simply does NOT permit T&C’s to be attached to issue of the licence, therefore the asserted contrary statements and actions are indeed unlawful. When elements of these T&C’s specifically claim to over-ride express statutory protections and prohibitions, the legal affront is all the more objectionable.

 

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2 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

well I suggest everyone poos in a bucket and throws it overboard, with the likely result that it rapidly becomes a national health issue and is made a criminal offence.  Enforcement can then receive the full support of the law.

That'd work.

 

But currently it is not any sort of offence (criminal or otherwise) except where laws have been passed regarding specific waters, for example the Thames.

 

PLA Byelaw 49 came into force on 1 January 2015. The Byelaw prevents the discharge of sewage into the Thames from specified vessels, consistent with the continuing improvement of the Thames environment, particularly with Thames Water's project to stop the discharge of untreated sewage into the river, and brings the Thames into line with a number of other UK harbours and inland waterways.

For the purposes of this byelaw, sewage refers to faeces and urine plus any water associated with them. In some circumstances, sewage from vessels is known as "black water".

The full text of the Port of London Authority Byelaw 49 is reproduced below:

49 (2012). DISCHARGE OF SEWAGE INTO THE THAMES

49.1 The owner of:

  1. a vessel licensed under section 124 of the Act or
  2. a houseboat

must, from 1 January 2015, ensure that no sewage is discharged into the Thames.

49.2 In this byelaw “houseboat” means any vessel (other than a ship registered under the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 or any vessel usually used for navigation) which is used primarily as a place of habitation, or as a place for accommodating or receiving persons for the purposes of shelter, recreation, entertainment or refreshment, or as club premises or offices, while it is moored.

In 2015 the PLA proposed to extend the byelaw covering all commercial vessels in the Thames, as currently the passenger boat industry and commercial sailing yachts are not required to contain their Blackwater. This is currently going through consultation with Department for transport and will state; Aofhjvv by 2023

 

It is interesting to note that a 'pleasure boat' does not come under the licensing criteria of section 124 of the Act, and would thus appear not to be affected by the sewage disposal legislation :

 

124.(1) Subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vessel shall not be navigated, worked or moored within the vessel licensing area unless—

(a)there is in force in relation to it a relevant licence issued by the Port Authority in accordance with byelaws made by the Port Authority; and

(b)the name of the vessel and such other particulars as may be prescribed in byelaws made by the Port Authority are displayed on the vessel in the manner prescribed by those byelaws.

(2) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to—

(a)a vessel which is navigated, worked or moored only occasionally in the vessel licensing area;

(b)a pleasure vessel;

(c)a hovercraft or seaplane;

(d)any vessel (other than a ship registered under the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 or any vessel usually used for navigation) which is used primarily as a place of habitation, or as a place for accommodating or receiving persons for the purposes of shelter, recreation, entertainment or refreshment, or as club premises or offices, while it is moored;

 

 

 

That may not be what either you or C&RT would wish the situation to be, but it is what it is.

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14 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

well I suggest everyone poos in a bucket and throws it overboard, with the likely result that it rapidly becomes a national health issue and is made a criminal offence.  Enforcement can then receive the full support of the law.

 

To form a balanced argument. I suggest everyone doesn't, it would be minging and would cost money to to make into a law. 

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