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b0atman

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6 hours ago, b0atman said:

One marina I was in no licence required and charged a realistic mooring fee (less than £2000 55ft) it had i would say above 70% occupancy (over 200 boats) council compromised with some  unnamed council tax payers that owner paid and then surcharged the live aboards / residential to cover his outlay plus some profit so we all paid an extra amount of £50 .Problem was that most boaters had no insurance or BSS as they never went out.

 

 

Worrying given that there have been a few incidents in the past few years where a boat in a marina has caught fire and then set neighbouring boats alight.

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A marina is free to put in their T&Cs that boats need insurance if they're mooring there. Of course.....the insurers might put in their T&Cs that the boat needs a BSS to be covered..... If you stay at a marina that doesn't need the boat to be insured, it goes both ways of course. And you could still sue for damages.

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17 minutes ago, Paul C said:

A marina is free to put in their T&Cs that boats need insurance if they're mooring there. Of course.....the insurers might put in their T&Cs that the boat needs a BSS to be covered..... If you stay at a marina that doesn't need the boat to be insured, it goes both ways of course. And you could still sue for damages.

I would not imagine there are many Marinas that do not require Insurance (3rd party & wreck recovery at least).

 

I cannot think of a single marina that we have used over the last 40 years (both Inland & Lumpy Water) that did not ask for evidence of insurance.

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36 minutes ago, Paul C said:

b0atman knows one though.

But he also knows that "Live aboard is time restrained to not being at mooring for more than 10 months per year no planning permission required".

 

Maybe he would be kind enough to identify which marina(s) don't require Insurance ?

 

As he was in said marina it shouldn't be too difficult - but - I doubt it will happen.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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2 hours ago, Paul C said:

A marina is free to put in their T&Cs that boats need insurance if they're mooring there. Of course.....the insurers might put in their T&Cs that the boat needs a BSS to be covered..... If you stay at a marina that doesn't need the boat to be insured, it goes both ways of course. And you could still sue for damages.

Every Marina that I used over the years has asked to see a copy of the insurance and BSS before being allowed to moor in the marina, even it it was just overnight stay. 

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On 17/08/2019 at 15:52, Mike on the Wey said:

I have responded to this in another thread or on another forum, where the OP claimed that any boater has the right to live on their boat in a marina on a full residential basis for up to 10 months of the year. It is simply not true, as it depends on (a) relevant planning permission and (b) specific limitations or permissions in that particular mooring agreement which will typically form the contract between the marina and boater.

and, potentially, the contract between the mooring or marina owner and the navigation authority (eg CaRT). 

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But he also knows that "Live aboard is time restrained to not being at mooring for more than 10 months per year no planning permission required".

 

Maybe he would be kind enough to identify which marina(s) don't require Insurance ?

 

As he was in said marina it shouldn't be too difficult - but - I doubt it will happen.

so you can blow the bubble ?

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11 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think you may have been misinformed - that is not a "compromise" - it is the 'law'

 

It is called 'composite hereditament'

 

 

A composite hereditament is something other than this.  It is a single unit in both domestic (Council Tax) and non-domestic (Business rates) use.  For example, a pontoon used for both residential and leisure boats. If a pontoon is used solely for residential (or solely for leisure) purposes, insofar as it is a hereditament, it is not composite.

 

What makes a hereditament is more complicated - it could be a single mooring, a pontoon or even a complete marina.  In Council Tax terms, due to the banding system, it is less tax to have one large hereditament than umpteen smaller ones.  Hence the boat shuffling in an effort to create one, large hereditament.  The principle doesn't work with non-domestic (i.e. leisure uses) and the advantage will be more modest with a composite hereditament so there are usually better ways to arrange a marina if tax minimisation is the object.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tacet said:

A composite hereditament is something other than this.  It is a single unit in both domestic (Council Tax) and non-domestic (Business rates) use.  For example, a pontoon used for both residential and leisure boats. If a pontoon is used solely for residential (or solely for leisure) purposes, insofar as it is a hereditament, it is not composite.

 

What makes a hereditament is more complicated - it could be a single mooring, a pontoon or even a complete marina.  In Council Tax terms, due to the banding system, it is less tax to have one large hereditament than umpteen smaller ones.  Hence the boat shuffling in an effort to create one, large hereditament.  The principle doesn't work with non-domestic (i.e. leisure uses) and the advantage will be more modest with a composite hereditament so there are usually better ways to arrange a marina if tax minimisation is the object.

 

 

 

Obviously the principle does not work with 'leisure users' as leisure use is not subject to council tax.

But in principle the rest of what you say is correct

 

(From the VOA Website)

 

8. Multiple Moorings and Composite Hereditaments

8.1 If there are a number of adjacent moorings to which the circumstances in 6.1 (b) apply they will all form part of one hereditament and will be a single "dwelling" subject to one Council Tax band unless, it is clear that the boat owner is in exclusive possession of the mooring, when a separate banding will apply.

8.2 If there are a number of adjacent moorings, some of which are used by boats which are sole or main residences and some of which are used by pleasure boats, but no boat owners have exclusive possession of any particular mooring, there would appear to be a composite hereditament occupied by the owner of the moorings.

 

 

Thus if there are multiple residential moorings around the marina then the VOA will issue a composite  council tax, based on the value of the total moorings.

If each mooring were to be charged CT individually then each would be band A (the lowest band) and the cost would be around £1000 per mooring.

 

The value of the composite CT will be considerably lower than the value of the sum of the individual moorings, and when divided by the number of residential boats gives a big saving. In the case of our marina the difference between 'under £100 per mooring' (calculated as a composite) and over £1000 per mooring when calculated as individual moorings.

 

The boaters committee were refusing to accept the need to move their boats twice per year to avoid becoming classed as permanent moorers (exclusive possession) but when I explained it would save each owner £1000 per year they soon saw the benefits of moving.

 

This probably explains it better than I can.

 

https://bwml.co.uk/council-tax-for-residential-moorings/

 

 

 

Moorers payment of Council Tax in Marinas 
Questions and Answers 
Q1. What is the difference between COMPOSITE and INDIVIDUAL assessment? 
An individual council tax assessment is relevant when a boat has exclusive use of the same berth for 12 months or more. By contrast a composite assessment applies where the boat does not enjoy exclusive use of a specific berth and demonstrates as such by occupying at least 2 separate berths within a 12 month period. 


Q2. Why is the exclusive use of a berth relevant for Council Tax? 
When planning permission is granted by the local planning authority for residential development – as is the case with residential berths in a marina – there is a formal change to the permitted use of the ‘land’ (or property). Every residential unit in the country is liable to pay council tax to the local authority. Residential berths are no different. 


Q3. Is payment of a composite rate a bit ‘unofficial’? 
No, it is very much a legitimate route to contributing to local services which are enjoyed through residential status. We have been discussing the appropriate terms and conditions for the assessment of Composite council tax assessments for over 3 years and so very much welcome the VOA’s formal guidelines issued in January 2016. This helps and guides all of us to understand the legal position. 


Q4. What if I don’t specify a preference to any of the options? 
This will likely result in an individual council tax bill being issued. The local authority will default all those that do not elect for (or comply with) the composite assessments, to an individual bill. 


Q5. What if I opt for composite assessment but don’t move as required? 
 We have been asked to share records of boat locations in the marina by berth – these will be generated by our monthly boat checks – if a boat hasn’t moved the requisite number of times, then they will be billed individually for council tax. 


Q6. How much is an individual council tax bill in my area? 
 Band A property charges – which is the band most moorers would fall into we understand – vary across the country. Examples relevant for this communication in the 2017/18 council tax year are:- 
 Sawley Marina  – North West Leics (Lockington Parish) is £1084 annually 
 Priory Marina   – Bedford Central is £1130 annually 


Q7. You say BWML will pay the composite council tax bill on behalf of moorers opting for   this, what does this mean in reality? 
 BWML has always been clear that we want to work within the guidelines laid down by the VOA to get the best value for our moorers to contain living costs as a residential moorer. As an incentive to our residential moorers we have previously stated that we would pay this composite charge for these moorers. In part this avoids a lot of 
administration sharing a single composite charge many ways, but also it acts as an incentive for moorers to comply with the requirements for the composite assessment.  


Q8. Isn’t the composite council tax factored into our moorings prices anyway? 
 We have a clear policy on pricing our moorings – this is embodied in our ‘Customer Charter’ – see www.bwml.co.uk/customer-info/. This policy does not take into account the likely impact of composite council tax, for the time being we are assuming that composite council tax cost is manageable separately within our cost base. As more local authorities bill us over the next year or so we will learn more on the impact. As outlined in Q7 above, we are committed to adding value to our residential mooring experience in our marinas so we do not anticipate these payments being punitive. 


Q9. Can’t moorers register for individual assessment directly with the Council? 
 Yes, many of our moorers at our residential marinas do register for council tax directly with the council. When this is the case BWML may not be aware. 
    However, it should be noted that this ‘election to pay an individual council tax charge’ to the local authority is a relationship between the moorer and the council. The mooring fee paid to BWML does not give exclusivity to any individual berth despite the fact that in practice many moorers may remain on the same berth for a considerable time. 


Q10.  Why are we being told about the need to move now, couldn’t we have been told            sooner? 
     Sadly, the onus has always been on the VOA & local authorities to instigate the charging mechanism that was going to follow the issuing of the VOA guidelines in January 2016. We discussed the issue of when would the composite charging mechanism start with the VOA throughout and we were informed that this would be triggered locally by each local authority. These have now started and it is reasonable to assume that all BWML marinas will be contacted over the next few months. 
    We are taking the view that 2017/18 will be the first year of charging until we are informed differently 


Q11. Where can I find out more information on the VOA’s guidelines on composite council           tax? 
    We have a dedicated page on our website that takes information published by the VOA, see www.bwml.co.uk/council-tax-clarification-for-residential-moorings/ 


Q12. Does cruising away from the marina constitute movement? 
Sadly being away from the marina cruising does not count as a movement and the VOA have been very clear on this point. The arrival back at the marina and occupancy of the same berth prior to departure will be deemed as continuous use. There will still be a requirement to move twice in a year, even if you have been out of the marina for a period of 1-2 months cruising. 
  

Q13. How exactly would I move with my neighbour to comply with the requirements? 
 We would envisage that small groups of 3 berth holders, friends, next door neighbours would ‘buddy’ up and work in a small group, all undertaking the move on the same day, well in advance of the end of the month. The move can be to the berth next door, or the opposite side of the mooring finger, as each location is separately numbered, it is not required to move to another part of the marina. 
 On the issue of electricity, in many instances as adjacent berths are being occupied as part of the move to comply with the requirements, the reconnection in to your main service bollard will still be possible, if your extension lead is of sufficient length.  


Q14. Is there a minimum period of occupancy of the neighbours berth to qualify? 
 A move has to demonstrate a period of 1 calendar month on an alternative berth as part of each move, anything less may well result in that move not being recorded as we undertake a monthly boat check. 


Q15.  If I have any questions or wish to change my preference who should I contact? 
     Please send all questions or preference changes to admin@bwml.co.uk 
 
 

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19 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Obviously the principle does not work with 'leisure users' as leisure use is not subject to council tax.

But in principle the rest of what you say is correct

 

(From the VOA Website)

 

8. Multiple Moorings and Composite Hereditaments

8.1 If there are a number of adjacent moorings to which the circumstances in 6.1 (b) apply they will all form part of one hereditament and will be a single "dwelling" subject to one Council Tax band unless, it is clear that the boat owner is in exclusive possession of the mooring, when a separate banding will apply.

8.2 If there are a number of adjacent moorings, some of which are used by boats which are sole or main residences and some of which are used by pleasure boats, but no boat owners have exclusive possession of any particular mooring, there would appear to be a composite hereditament occupied by the owner of the moorings.

 

See s64(9) Local Gov Finance Act 1988 -"A herediatment is composite if part only of it consists of domestic property)".  It is a matter of terminology only, but a composite hereditament is one with both domestic (residential) and non-domestic (e.g. leisure) elements.  If any number multiple berths are grouped together to form a single hereditament that is wholly domestic or wholly non-domestic - then it is not a composite hereditament.

 

So, there are two separate issues - multiple berths (not directly relevant to whether composite or not) and mixed domestic/non-domestic use (determinative of whether composite or not).   Also as per VOA.  BWML is either wrong or ambiguous in places.

 

The reason that the principle (of a substantially reduced tax liability) does not work with non-domestic is because non-domestic rating is not banded - and the charge is largely a linear function of the rateable value.  So, broadly speaking, 1 x 10 berth intermediate will be liable for much the same tax as 10 x 1 berth.  Not exactly the same charge - there might be quantum allowances and/or small business reliefs etc.

 

The Council Tax banding system is such that the highest band H pays only three times that of the lowest band A.   So, if you have 10 or 100 berths in a hereditament, it will be much cheaper overall than each berth forming its own hereditament.   But  little to do with composite or otherwise.  In fact, if 100 liveaboard berths were assessed as composite (let's not go into why that might be) rather than purely domestic, the total tax would be greater.  So, generally speaking, the taxpayer of moorings will not wish to be assessed as composite.  In a very few peculiar instances, that may not be the maths.

 

The boat shuffling and non-exclusive use of a single spot etc will be influential on ascertaining the nature/extent of a hereditament (i.e. how many berths make up a single liability) and whether the boat is sufficiently annexed to form part of the assessment.  If the unit-of-shuffling extended to mixed domestic and non-domestic berths - that might well trigger a composite assessment but it is the mixed use that does so - and not the multiple berths in itself

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Tacet said:

See s64(9) Local Gov Finance Act 1988 -"A herediatment is composite if part only of it consists of domestic property)".  It is a matter of terminology only, but a composite hereditament is one with both domestic (residential) and non-domestic (e.g. leisure) elements.  If any number multiple berths are grouped together to form a single hereditament that is wholly domestic or wholly non-domestic - then it is not a composite hereditament.

I don't think 'we' are disagreeing.

in section 8:2 (taken from the VOA website) it states exactly what you are quoting.

 

None of the marinas I have ever used actually 'herd' together all of the residential boats / moorings - in my present (BWML) marina, just taking one side of one pontoon as an example

there are :

2 leisure moorings, 2 residential moorings 1 leisure, 1 residential 4 leisure, 2 residential 4 leisure, 1 residential (and it is repeated in varying number across the whole marina)

 

This would appear to completely fall under the requirements for a composite herediatment

21 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

8.2 If there are a number of adjacent moorings, some of which are used by boats which are sole or main residences and some of which are used by pleasure boats, but no boat owners have exclusive possession of any particular mooring, there would appear to be a composite hereditament occupied by the owner of the moorings.

 

The marina owner then becomes liable for payment of this, which he can choose to 'absorb' into his costs, (as per business rates) or, amortise across the number of Residential moorers

The marina owner ensure compliance with the requirements by having the "Bi-Annual Shuffle"

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41 minutes ago, Tacet said:

The Council Tax banding system is such that the highest band H pays only three times that of the lowest band A.   So, if you have 10 or 100 berths in a hereditament, it will be much cheaper overall than each berth forming its own hereditament.   But  little to do with composite or otherwise.  In fact, if 100 liveaboard berths were assessed as composite (let's not go into why that might be) rather than purely domestic, the total tax would be greater.  So, generally speaking, the taxpayer of moorings will not wish to be assessed as composite.  In a very few peculiar instances, that may not be the maths.

Maybe I am not understanding, but as it stands I see it as :

 

1) Individual CT will be applied to the mooring at Band A (example £1000)

2) The 'composite' for (say) 30 moorings will be applied at a maximum of 3x Band A (example £3000)

 

So if the £3000 is amortised across each mooring the cost per mooring is £100. Which is the way I have seen it work at a number (inc BWML) of marinas.

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I don't think 'we' are disagreeing.

in section 8:2 (taken from the VOA website) it states exactly what you are quoting.

 

None of the marinas I have ever used actually 'herd' together all of the residential boats / moorings - in my present (BWML) marina, just taking one side of one pontoon as an example

there are :

2 leisure moorings, 2 residential moorings 1 leisure, 1 residential 4 leisure, 2 residential 4 leisure, 1 residential (and it is repeated in varying number across the whole marina)

 

This would appear to completely fall under the requirements for a composite herediatment

 

The marina owner then becomes liable for payment of this, which he can choose to 'absorb' into his costs, (as per business rates) or, amortise across the number of Residential moorers

The marina owner ensure compliance with the requirements by having the "Bi-Annual Shuffle"

It's a very dry subject - and any difference between us is probably irrelevant.  But the BWML you quoted earlier is simply wrong:

 

Q1. What is the difference between COMPOSITE and INDIVIDUAL assessment? 
An individual council tax assessment is relevant when a boat has exclusive use of the same berth for 12 months or more. By contrast a composite assessment applies where the boat does not enjoy exclusive use of a specific berth and demonstrates as such by occupying at least 2 separate berths within a 12 month period.

 

Back in the mid 1990's, I was working for a large firm of Chartered Surveyors which had a contract from the VOA to address Council Tax appeals.  Some of the appeals related to matters of principle rather than pure assessment - so I was reasonably up to speed at that time.  Since then, I have made very effort to keep away from the rating side of the profession- but inevitably one gets drawn in whilst working on other aspects of the job.

 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Maybe I am not understanding, but as it stands I see it as :

 

1) Individual CT will be applied to the mooring at Band A (example £1000)

2) The 'composite' for (say) 30 moorings will be applied at a maximum of 3x Band A (example £3000)

 

So if the £3000 is amortised across each mooring the cost per mooring is £100. Which is the way I have seen it work at a number (inc BWML) of marinas.

Hmmm -  I need to try again.  Composite means only part of the hereditament is domestic - and does not relate to the number of moorings in a single hereditament.  Having 30 moorings in a hereditament does not make it composite.  And having only one mooring in a hereditament does not make it non-composite.   As the definition of composite is in the Council Tax legislation, it is not explicitly stated, but the other part of a composite hereditament is, by firm implication and practice, non-domestic.  Therefore a single, composite hereditament is liable for both Council tax and business rates. 

 

A common example would be a public house with non-self contained owner's accommodation.  It is a single hereditament - but the pub part is assessed for business rates and the flat for Council Tax - albeit with a note that it is a composite assessment.   The practical effect is that the flat is liable to be assessed at a lower value/band/tax as (for example) it shares a kitchen with the pub.  And the pub would have a lower rateable value as it shares the same kitchen.  So, broadly speaking, the kitchen is not taxed twice.  If the flat was self-contained - there would be two hereditaments, one liable to business rates and one liable to Council Tax.  And not composite.

 

Turning to your example, a hereditament with only one mooring (non-composite) will probably be in band A (say £1000) - whilst a hereditament with 30 (non-composite) moorings will probably be in band H and  therefore taxed at £3,000.  The rate per mooring for the latter is only £100.  Happy days as you say if you can reach agreement to share nicely.

 

I should probably stop here.  But either the single mooring or the 30 mooring hereditament could be composite should the circumstances align.  If the hereditament includes non-domestic property, it is composite and will be subject to non-domestic (i.e. business) rates and Council tax.  For example, (and I don't want to be drawn on the ifs-and-buts of specific examples) if the residential mooring comes with a right to use a club house or car park or slipway or elsan disposal point that is non-domestic (e.g. also used by leisure moorings or for other business purposes) and therefore assessed for business rates, the residential mooring(s) becomes composite and in addition to paying your £1,000 or £3,000, there is a liability for  the business rates - so, in simple terms at least, the cost is more for that composite hereditament.

 

Whether the total property tax for all the hereditaments that make up a marina is increased or decreased will depend on several factors including valuation.  But looking only at a residential mooring or moorings, you (probably) don't want to be composite.  I think it is just conceivable to have circumstances with two or three berths (no more, no less) where the impact on the composite putting one in a lower banding (and thus save that tax) will outweigh the business rates.  But it won't be often.

 

 

Edited by Tacet
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10 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Hmmm -  I need to try again.  Composite means only part of the hereditament is domestic - and does not relate to the number of moorings in a single hereditament.  Having 30 moorings in a hereditament does not make it composite.  And having only one mooring in a hereditament does not make it non-composite.   As the definition of composite is in the Council Tax legislation, it is not explicitly stated, but the other part of a composite hereditament is, by firm implication and practice, non-domestic.  Therefore a single, composite hereditament is liable for both Council tax and business rates. 

Apologies I did not make it clear.

 

The marina has 200 berths of which 30 are Residential and 170 are leisure.

the 30 residential are spread randomly around the marina.

 

The basic mooring fee for leisure users includes the Business rates charged.

The residential mooring fee is 'surcharged' by the amount of council tax charged.

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9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Apologies I did not make it clear.

 

The marina has 200 berths of which 30 are Residential and 170 are leisure.

the 30 residential are spread randomly around the marina.

 

The basic mooring fee for leisure users includes the Business rates charged.

The residential mooring fee is 'surcharged' by the amount of council tax charged.

This is very similar to the situation in Mercia which has 260 residential berths in a total of over 600 berths. The whole marina is a composite hereditament paying one Band H council tax charge. The mooring fee for residential berths is (I think) £150 higher than the equivalent leisure fee, covering both a contribution to CT and the extra costs of a residential berth such as post handling facilities and extra rubbish disposal and water supply costs.

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On 17/08/2019 at 11:56, b0atman said:

Residential is use marina 365 days a year and needs planning permission and incurs liability to council tax. Live aboard is time restrained to not being at mooring for more than 10 months per year no planning permission required . 

 

I raised this matter some time ago on this forum and was told I had it wrong.

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On ‎18‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 17:11, Paul C said:

Higgs was going to do a list too.

 

But, not a list of marinas that would allow moorers to forego any need of a BSS and insurance. I don't agree with risking safety. The only list I was interested in compiling would be that of marinas with historic rights, or other, whose moorers are not required to hold a licence. As yet, not complete.  

 

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Just now, Paul C said:

The partial list will probably greatly help other boaters on the forum.

 

I would agree, but it is so incomplete, I don't think it would improve on what a little bit of casual research might throw up for anyone interested. Besides, I have things on scraps of paper and countless notepad files. It's on the backburners, just now. :)

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Apologies I did not make it clear.

 

The marina has 200 berths of which 30 are Residential and 170 are leisure.

the 30 residential are spread randomly around the marina.

 

The basic mooring fee for leisure users includes the Business rates charged.

The residential mooring fee is 'surcharged' by the amount of council tax charged.

In practice, that would be a pragmatic way to share out the tax and least likely to result in disputes and questions.

 

But if you wanted to be pedantic or awkward and the 30 residential berths were marked as composite - that is they are not wholly domestic (e.g. share pontoons, car parking, club house or elsan disposal point), you could say they are therefore responsible for a share of the business rates in addition to the Counciil tax.

 

Or, you could question why a residential berth should have to pay the marina an additional sum to represent the property tax (i.e. CT) when the property tax (i.e. business rates) is included  in the mooring fee for non-residential use?  If you change a berth from leisure to residential - the marina will save the business rates on that berth.   Quick answer is, of course, that is the terms on which the marina owner is prepared to licence its moorings - and if you don't like it etc etc.  How a tax bill is divided up between owners and occupiers is a separate question to the total liability 

 

FWIW a quick Google does not seem to reveal any Council Tax assessments for Mercia - although a couple of historic band A entries  have been deleted.  The breakdown of the business rate RV£153,500 is hidden away too - so it is not obvious just what happens in practice there in taxation terms.  The General Conditions of a mooring exclude use as principal private residence  (unless authorised) and makes a berth holder liable for any Council Tax that may become due.  I have no idea about Mercia or anywhere else, but being realistic, the VOA is going to be busy if it wishes to run up and down every pontoon on a regular basis trying to work out just what comprises a hereditament and whether it is liable for Council Tax, Business rates or both.  If there is planning permission for 30 residential berths it is likely to be locationally specific (the planning officer is unlikely to want to play games counting types of berths) so that might be a start.  But if there is no readily identifiable pontoons for CT, it is a reasonable guess that he is hoping to find that every berth is non-domestic and thus liable for business rates only.  In a similar vein, he may not be looking to identify any composites to which he can turn a blind eye.  All for a quiet life.

Edited by Tacet
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