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How much solar for Newbie widebeam liveaboard?


antiquearcher

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Morning everyone,

 

Have just completed purchase of our first boat. 56' x 12 built in 2006.

 

I intend doing a reburbishment over the coming 6 months or so but really need advice.

 

1st - a generator ideal for the boat but initially to run my power tools inc a Dewalt table saw.

 

2nd (and most important) - PLEASE, can someone recommend roughly what I should fit for solar, batteries and panels, to cover most of our needs as liveaboard continuous cruisers.. Currently have a solid fuel stove and back boiler. Would like to install oil fired boiler.

 

Power expectations are all the usual appliances but not dishwasher. Standard fridge freezer, washing machine, TV, 12v lighting, laptops, radio......hot water and heating would be superb even if only partial. I assume being a Widebeam, roof space isn't the main issue. I've read so much it's confusing. As we live in a cloudy part of th world and the cut is shady, would amorphous panels be the better choice? I've no idea about this stuff yet. Equipment required, set up plans, where to buy, what to buy and how much to buy- would all be very helpful.

 

I'm sorry if this repeats a previous post, and I thank you all in advance.

 

Cheers all.

 

 

 

Edited by antiquearcher
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As much as you can afford, or as much as you can fit on the roof.

 

Whatever you fit will not be sufficient to give you 'off-grid' electricity for more than about 8 months of the year (maybe less with the appliance list you are suggesting)

 

You really cannot decide until you have done a full power audit.

 

Are you planning a 'built-in' cacooned diesel generator, or a "lift it off and run it on the bank" small generator ?

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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You need to cover the entire roof, that will still not be enough however for all those gadgets in winter. Be better to take a winter mooring with lectric that will cost peanuts, at most two quid a day for lectric. Plus cost of mooring. 

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19 minutes ago, antiquearcher said:

I assume being a Widebeam, roof space isn't the main issue.

 

With boats, never assume ANYTHING.

 

Where solar is concerned, WotEver's Law applies:

 

"Whatever solar you have, it will be too much in summer and not enough in winter"

 

Read it as many times as it takes, for the meaning and consequences of this to fully sink in. 

 

 

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I have the same size boat, same gadgets as you, it is electric drive, at the moment I have 1.2 kw of solar doing my domestic needs, in the winter I will be using all 3.6kw for my domestic needs. I am planning on adding a further 900 watts of solar on the wheelhouse to take me up to 4.5 kw. I have flat panels 9 are 310 watts and the rest are 300 watts  I paid on average 90 squids each, my solar controllers are midnite ones which are very expensive but work well,

My panels are swichable to suit my needs in the summer my drive panels are connected to the immersion heater for hot water if I am not cruising hope this helps

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It's all about the minimum, not the maximum (power that you will get). I would look for a job lot of panels (ebay etc) taking into account what panel sizes will best fit onto your roof, and put as much on as possible. You'll never regret it and it isn't really necessary to walk on the roof so you might just as well fill it. Do it from day 1.

If you have A LOT (3kw+?) you may have enough for basic elec all winter (tv pumps etc) with the use of a genny for washing machine and occasional battery top up. And in summer you may be able to run your big appliances on a sunny day.

Beyond a large solar array, you have the controller/s to think of, and the battery bank. If you can fit lithiums, you'll be able to quickly capture power on days with very short periods of sun much more effectively than with l/a's but that's for another thread.

 

One other thing - some people like to use tiltable mounts, but I think it is a faff and the money is better spent on extra panels (lying flat) though tilting (especially in winter) can make quite a difference. (ie 2a per panel could become 4a). Perhaps good if you are a narrow boat and permanently moored in one position?

 

To give you an idea of what to expect, with 600w, MOST summers days I have enough for basic requirements (even on cloudy but "bright" days but not on very dark cloudy days). Though I'm just adding another 500w now to counter that and extend usefulness.

 

If you have a lot of solar you can settle for a small petrol genny for occasional use, otherwise go for a built in - plenty on ebay under 2k. But it is great not having to burn diesel.

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As much as you can afford, or as much as you can fit on the roof.

 

Whatever you fit will not be sufficient to give you 'off-grid' electricity for more than about 8 months of the year (maybe less with the appliance list you are suggesting)

 

You really cannot decide until you have done a full power audit.

 

Are you planning a 'built-in' cacooned diesel generator, or a "lift it off and run it on the bank" small generator ?

Cheers Alan,

 

I get your point.

 

I'm unsure whether to fit Amorphic panels or polycrystalline ones for a start? Maybe a combination? Where I can get best price for equipment? What list of equipment I need. How many batteries? Whether to bite the built and buy Lithium.

 

As to the generator, I've no knowledge. Whilst the ease of a fitted one sounds great, I'm hoping not to need one on a regular basis, but what do I know.....

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

I have the same size boat, same gadgets as you, it is electric drive, at the moment I have 1.2 kw of solar doing my domestic needs, in the winter I will be using all 3.6kw for my domestic needs. I am planning on adding a further 900 watts of solar on the wheelhouse to take me up to 4.5 kw. I have flat panels 9 are 310 watts and the rest are 300 watts  I paid on average 90 squids each, my solar controllers are midnite ones which are very expensive but work well,

My panels are swichable to suit my needs in the summer my drive panels are connected to the immersion heater for hot water if I am not cruising hope this helps

Hi Peter,

That's really useful to know. Cheers.

Are you using polycrystalline panels and are they angled or flat? Which batteries.

 

As you use electricity for propulsion, are you suggesting 3,6 would suffice for a normal domestic use?

 

Regards,

Richard

 

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1 hour ago, Johny London said:

It's all about the minimum, not the maximum (power that you will get). I would look for a job lot of panels (ebay etc) taking into account what panel sizes will best fit onto your roof, and put as much on as possible. You'll never regret it and it isn't really necessary to walk on the roof so you might just as well fill it. Do it from day 1.

If you have A LOT (3kw+?) you may have enough for basic elec all winter (tv pumps etc) with the use of a genny for washing machine and occasional battery top up. And in summer you may be able to run your big appliances on a sunny day.

Beyond a large solar array, you have the controller/s to think of, and the battery bank. If you can fit lithiums, you'll be able to quickly capture power on days with very short periods of sun much more effectively than with l/a's but that's for another thread.

 

One other thing - some people like to use tiltable mounts, but I think it is a faff and the money is better spent on extra panels (lying flat) though tilting (especially in winter) can make quite a difference. (ie 2a per panel could become 4a). Perhaps good if you are a narrow boat and permanently moored in one position?

 

To give you an idea of what to expect, with 600w, MOST summers days I have enough for basic requirements (even on cloudy but "bright" days but not on very dark cloudy days). Though I'm just adding another 500w now to counter that and extend usefulness.

 

If you have a lot of solar you can settle for a small petrol genny for occasional use, otherwise go for a built in - plenty on ebay under 2k. But it is great not having to burn diesel.

Great help Johny,

Thank you.

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3 minutes ago, antiquearcher said:

Cheers Alan,

 

I get your point.

 

I'm unsure whether to fit Amorphic panels or polycrystalline ones for a start? Maybe a combination? Where I can get best price for equipment? What list of equipment I need. How many batteries? Whether to bite the built and buy Lithium.

 

As to the generator, I've no knowledge. Whilst the ease of a fitted one sounds great, I'm hoping not to need one on a regular basis, but what do I know.....

Have a start by reading a bit on the Bimble website, I have had some great deals from them, some folk find them 'not so good'.

 

have a flick-around their website.

 

Their prices tend to be competitive, but you may end up buying something that you don't need.

 

I have purchased some of their 2nd hand panels (perfect working order for a fraction of the cost of 'new'

 

https://www.bimblesolar.com/beginnersguide

 

 

These would look to be a bargain :

 

https://www.bimblesolar.com/solar/255w-amerisolar-used

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14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Have a start by reading a bit on the Bimble website, I have had some great deals from them, some folk find them 'not so good'.

 

have a flick-around their website.

 

Their prices tend to be competitive, but you may end up buying something that you don't need.

 

I have purchased some of their 2nd hand panels (perfect working order for a fraction of the cost of 'new'

 

https://www.bimblesolar.com/beginnersguide

 

 

These would look to be a bargain :

 

https://www.bimblesolar.com/solar/255w-amerisolar-used

They certainly do. Thanks a lot.

Bloody frustrating - she is currently lying 3 hours away and the roof width is crucial. These you linked are 1640 long, and I'd like to lay them across rather than along. From the little I've picked up in knowledge, I should be looking for around 3.5Kw which means 14 of these panels. IF they don't fit across, I'd need to look at higher wattage -I think the length would cope with a max of 12 fitting lengthways.

Will visit and measure Saturday. Could be perfect.

 

What else do I need if I have say 3.6Kw of panels? Does that mean an inverter of say 4Kw? What number of batteries? What controller? Can I set it up to use excess energy to heat water?

 

Thanks again

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If I were you, (and I'm obvioulsy not :) ), I would fit around 500-600w of solar with a 50A MPPT controller to start with, and see how you get on. This should provide most of your needs during the months from March to September, and nothing for the rest of the year. Your generator, (Honda EU2.2i if it were me :) ), would supplement the solar on summer days when the sun wasn't enough, and in winter when there is no effective solar.

 

Then, once you know where you stand, after a year or so, you could consider more solar, which would be loads if you want it to provide everything during winter, or you might consider an inboard generator.

 

Dont forget that, if you are CC'ing, your cruising will supply all the power you need on the days you cruise for a reasonable number of hours.

 

 

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2 hours ago, antiquearcher said:

Morning everyone,

 

Have just completed purchase of our first boat. 56' x 12 built in 2006.

 

I intend doing a reburbishment over the coming 6 months years or so but really need advice.

Corrected that for you : and welcome to the forum :)

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14 minutes ago, antiquearcher said:

They certainly do. Thanks a lot.

Bloody frustrating - she is currently lying 3 hours away and the roof width is crucial. These you linked are 1640 long, and I'd like to lay them across rather than along. From the little I've picked up in knowledge, I should be looking for around 3.5Kw which means 14 of these panels. IF they don't fit across, I'd need to look at higher wattage -I think the length would cope with a max of 12 fitting lengthways.

Will visit and measure Saturday. Could be perfect.

 

What else do I need if I have say 3.6Kw of panels? Does that mean an inverter of say 4Kw? What number of batteries? What controller? Can I set it up to use excess energy to heat water?

 

Thanks again

Keep it simple.

 

A bigger wattage panel has to be (by the laws of physics) has to be bigger so its a case of finding which fits, and then maximising the wattage.

 

Say you have 3kw of panels. you could wire these up in two banks of 1500w

Look on the Bimble site for suitable MPPT controllers for 1500w (100 amp will probably do the job - higher would be better)

Someone who already has a big solar array can advise better.

 

Wire the output of the controllers directly to the batteries.

Run your 12v appliances from the batteries.

 

For your mains equipment wire your inverter (3kw ?) directly to the batteries and the Inverter output (230v AC) into you distribution board / RCD / Fuse box

 

MPPT-setup-design.png

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Keep it simple.

 

A bigger wattage panel has to be (by the laws of physics) has to be bigger so its a case of finding which fits, and then maximising the wattage.

 

Say you have 3kw of panels. you could wire these up in two banks of 1500w

Look on the Bimble site for suitable MPPT controllers for 1500w (100 amp will probably do the job - higher would be better)

Someone who already has a big solar array can advise better.

 

Wire the output of the controllers directly to the batteries.

Run your 12v appliances from the batteries.

 

For your mains equipment wire your inverter (3kw ?) directly to the batteries and the Inverter output (230v AC) into you distribution board / RCD / Fuse box

 

MPPT-setup-design.png

 

That's brilliant! Thank you very much. I've no doubt I shall be back to pester you and the others who've been kind enough to help. Cheers!!!

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I would put a breaker or isolation switch between the solar panels and the MPPT. For what it costs it will be worth it for the convenience of being able to isolate the panels rather than covering them with blankets or the like if you need to work on the system. 

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45 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

If I were you, (and I'm obvioulsy not :) ), I would fit around 500-600w of solar with a 50A MPPT controller to start with, and see how you get on. This should provide most of your needs during the months from March to September, and nothing for the rest of the year. Your generator, (Honda EU2.2i if it were me :) ), would supplement the solar on summer days when the sun wasn't enough, and in winter when there is no effective solar.

 

Then, once you know where you stand, after a year or so, you could consider more solar, which would be loads if you want it to provide everything during winter, or you might consider an inboard generator.

 

Dont forget that, if you are CC'ing, your cruising will supply all the power you need on the days you cruise for a reasonable number of hours.

 

 

I've just bought two x 275w new panels [on offer] , a 40 amp Epever [bells and no whistles] controller and a 375w inverter [Victron, bells no whistles], from Bimble. £509 delivered with some cables, breaker, and connectors.

If I need to, I could possible double up, with two controllers, so two systems. I  think that would suit me better.

If I needed a fridge and a freezer I would buy two, both chest types, if available at reasonable prices, as the cold air falls out of the larder door type = greater demand.

I'm no expert, but it's my way forward. There is plenty of work without starting from scratch. To be fair, scratch start is better if you are flush with cash and don't live aboard for the first three months.

I'm no expert, this is just how I view things, as a three month liveaboard, tbh, if I were you, I would have two inverters, one for laptop/expensive electricals etc. ie my 375. A big inverter to run the big stuff. Remember you have to put in more than you can take out ......... just like  your credit cards!

Batteries / electrics: well, I could write a book!

I have just bought 3 x 135 ah agm [ie sealed] for domestic bank. This is cos I am low user [only 1.5 x 135ah will be "available" . and my batteries are difficult to access, so maintenance free rather than the flooded lead acid [cheaper]. I have secured the services of a good boat electrician, he is very experienced, and has been very helpful. I expect his re-design to be fairly expensive, maybe £1250 materials, £1000 labour and vat,  

I have not taken my boat out of the marina yet, just as well, since the existing electrics are not good enough to be considered safe ............. of course it has a BSS Certificate, but no survey, or examination would have found what we have found, Do not assume anything, if you are in any doubt, keep digging :)

 

 

Edited by LadyG
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1 hour ago, antiquearcher said:

Cheers Alan,

 

I get your point.

 

I'm unsure whether to fit Amorphic panels or polycrystalline ones for a start? Maybe a combination? Where I can get best price for equipment? What list of equipment I need. How many batteries? Whether to bite the built and buy Lithium.

 

As to the generator, I've no knowledge. Whilst the ease of a fitted one sounds great, I'm hoping not to need one on a regular basis, but what do I know.....

Hi Peter,

That's really useful to know. Cheers.

Are you using polycrystalline panels and are they angled or flat? Which batteries.

 

As you use electricity for propulsion, are you suggesting 3,6 would suffice for a normal domestic use?

 

Regards,

Richard

 

I am using Polycrystalline panels I bought nine for 8o squids each secondhand and another 3 brand new for 90 squids each, I have them 4 in series then two of the chains in parallel back, my whole system is switched so I can have it all on drive or all on domestic or any combination I feel like. Whilst cruising I have it all on drive to maximise my range whilst moored I have 1200 watts on domestic in the summer and the 2400 watts on ether charging drive batteries or on the immersion heater.

My battery bank is domestic 4 x LifePo4s and for drive 10 x LifePo4s, my whole system will be upgraded shortly with the addition of 5 more batteries for drive and 3 additional 300 watt panels for whatever they are switched to.

My panels are mounted flat and in lines down the roof, make sure that the roof is well painted before putting the panels on, my additional panels will be on the wheelhouse roof at a slight tilt which may or may not help!

If you have any question please pm me with a number and I am happy to talk to you about it

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1 hour ago, antiquearcher said:

They certainly do. Thanks a lot.

Bloody frustrating - she is currently lying 3 hours away and the roof width is crucial. These you linked are 1640 long, and I'd like to lay them across rather than along.

 

1640mm is about 5 ft 5 ins so should easily fit across the roof of a 12 ft beam boat. Put them to one side and you will still have room to walk along the roof.

Edited by David Mack
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1 minute ago, David Mack said:

Ò

 

1640mm is about 5 ft 5 ins so should easily fit across the roof of a 12 ft beam boat. Put them to one side and you will still have room to walk along the roof.

Why would you want to walk on the roof? 14 years of boat ownership has seen me going on the roof to put centerline ropes on and take them off afterwards

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

These would look to be a bargain :

 

https://www.bimblesolar.com/solar/255w-amerisolar-used

 

Bimble's prices are good, but just be aware that the delivery charge for a single panel is quite steep. For additional panels it is much less, so not so much of an issue if you are buying multiple panels. 

Or you can collect for free.

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7 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Why would you want to walk on the roof? 14 years of boat ownership has seen me going on the roof to put centerline ropes on and take them off afterwards

I walk on the roof all the time when singlehanding through locks, in order to move between the back of the boat and the lock ladder. Much easier than trying to squeeze along the gunwale between the cabin and the lock wall without smearing wet slime on my clothes. And except for the deepest locks it means my hands only have to grip the clean dry part of the ladder, above the upper water level.

Edited by David Mack
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1 minute ago, David Mack said:

I walk on the roof all the time when singlehanding through locks, in order to move between the back of the boat and the lock ladder. Much easier than trying to squeeze along the gunwale between the cabin and the lock wall without smearing wet slime on my clothes. And eccept for the deepest locks it means my hands only have to grip the clean dry part of the ladder, above the upper water level.

Big boats = big locks so plenty of room on my big gunwales without walking on the roof, it explains why I was puzzled

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