Vintage engines

[tehmarks]

Currently looking with interest at a boat that ticks almost all of the boxes I'd like ticking, within budget, and will be arranging to go view in person as soon as I can find time.

 

The thing is...it has a vintage engine. A Gardner 1L2*, to be exact. I'm certainly not adverse to putting time and effort into the upkeep and maintenance of the engine...but I don't have the first clue about vintage engines as things stand. Can anyone give me an idea of the usual regular maintenance requirements that are needed to keep such an engine in good condition (beyond the usual oil and filters changes that modern engines need), and how much time I could expect to invest in it? And for bonus points, how easily it'll be to acquire the knowledge and skills to keep on top of regular maintenance myself?

 

* - I understand this might be a bit 'weedy' for a boat of any decent length, but I figure that's something I'll soon notice on a test cruise if it's a problem.

[ditchcrawler]

Barry Hawkins put some in boats using a hydraulic drive, I can't remember where he said he found the engines as it was 18 years ago at the Crick show

[David Mack]

Had a boat with a 1L2 pass me a few days ago. Sounded wonderful!

 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, tehmarks said:

* - I understand this might be a bit 'weedy' for a boat of any decent length, but I figure that's something I'll soon notice on a test cruise if it's a problem

 

Casperghost on here has a 1L2 in his boat and he says its pretty underpowered. Another chap I met with a JP1 said the same. 

 

I have a Kelvin K1 in mine (MUCH bigger than a 1L2) and that too is hardly speedy. 

 

 

[BEngo]

Old engines are easy to maintain, generally.  All they require is a wipe over frequently, check that nothing is loose, leaking or otherwise awry. Fix as needed.  Then do oil and filters regularly.  Make sure the coolant is up to strength every autumn, and again if it leaks.

 

Fixing them can be more of a challenge.  You need the right non-metric spanners and, the hardest part, the right parts.   

Getting parts is the same as building a network.  You need to talk to other owners and learn who has what, where and when.

That said Gardners are not too bad.  The 1L2 was a common laboratory engine and there are a few about.   Gardner parts may even have bits.

N

[Athy]

   The L2 engine predates the more common LW type: it was introduced in 1929 and production ceased about 1952 - except for the 1L2 which had found niche markets such as laboratory work and lighthouse power. They were built until at least 1968, so your example may not be particularly ancient.

 

   In my (non-technical) opinion you might encounter two problems with this engine. Firstly it's rated at only 11 h.p. and so could struggle to push a large narrowboat around. Secondly, unlike the LW range, it's no longer supported by Gardner Parts so bits could be hard to find. It being a Gardner, reliability should not be an issue if it's been looked after. As for maintenance, on our 2LW I check the oil and water levels very few days when we're cruising (it never uses any), put a drop of light oil on external moving parts and have a full service (filters, oil change) annually. That's all.

 

   Barry Hawkins did indeed install at least one 1L2 in a quite big (60 foot I think) n/b. His son showed me around it some years ago when the boat was brand new. He reckoned that it had sufficient power, but added that its modest power meant that it could not drive an alternator. (I hope I have remembered that correctly).

 

   If the boat is more than about 40 feet long, I'd think twice.

 

EDIT: I've looked at the Gardner Parts web site and, as Bengo suggests, they do seem to stock quite a few parts for this engine.

Edited August 15, 2019 by Athy

[Alan de Enfield]

I have generally avoided these sorts of engines - primarily because I know nothing about the care & maintenance of them, but more importantly my perceptions of them for 'modern everyday use' (which could be wrong)

 

Are slow-revving and it can be a problem to get sufficient output from an alternator without big modifications to pulley sizes - which are not always possible.

 

Smaller ones are (what today would be considered) underpowered and often engines put into NBs to make them appear 'traditional' are not ideal - the 1L2 (as has been said) was an ideal small 'Laboratory' engine but is not ideal for pushing a heavy steel boat, and is unlikely to have the power to drive an alternator as well.

 

I was always quoted a minimum figure of 1hp per ton for 'moving' a boat - but with underpowered boats, it is not the 'starting to move' part that is the issue, but the ability to stop.

 

Availability of parts and expertise to repair them - they are reliable but one day something will break and as a specialised engine (no longer supported by Gardner) parts sourcing and someone who can fix them can be difficult when out 'in the middle of nowhere'.

 

We are all different, that's what makes us human.

Each to their own.

 

[David Mack]

42 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I was always quoted a minimum figure of 1hp per ton for 'moving' a boat - but with underpowered boats, it is not the 'starting to move' part that is the issue, but the ability to stop.

 

The Grand Union Canal Carrying Company built a large fleet of motor narrowboats almost all fitted with 18hp twin cylinder Russell Newberys and Nationals, and they quite happily towed a butty, a loaded pair weighing in excess of 60 tons.

[OldGoat]

Don't pay a premium price for a "chuggy" enginine - especially as you may be 'forced' to rreplace it later - it's the little bits that break, especially the thrupple nuts.....

 

If your needs are for modern  electrical conveniences, then an inboard watercooled generator solves that - if you have the space. But they cost, factor that in.

[MtB]

13 hours ago, tehmarks said:

The thing is...it has a vintage engine. A Gardner 1L2*, to be exact. I'm certainly not adverse to putting time and effort into the upkeep and maintenance of the engine...but I don't have the first clue about vintage engines as things stand.

 

I would suggest that if you don't have a clue, you might not be that interested in vintage diesels in which case I would advise against buying this boat. If on the other hand you quite fancy the idea and are hoping for some encouragement, then I'd say go for it. In five years I predict you'll know a LOT about vintage gardners, most of it picked up from other owners who will stand and chat with you for hours delaying your boating. But to some of us, this chatting is part and parcel of the nature of boating.

 

As Dave pointed out earlier, these are not really proper vintage engines being key operated electric-start, and having no exposed/visible flywheel to see rotating. More like an early incarnation of a modern pre-common rail diesel. 

[PaulJ]

28 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

As Dave pointed out earlier, these are not really proper vintage engines being key operated electric-start, and having no exposed/visible flywheel to see rotating. More like an early incarnation of a modern pre-common rail diesel. 

This was a 67ft Barry Hawkins tug with a 1L2  in  I bought down from Crick to Grest Ouse last year. Ok not the fastest boat around and took a bit of thinking ahead to stop but a real joy to chug about on.

As Athy says-no alternator (or starter) as you really needed every hp available!

Edited August 15, 2019 by PaulJ
Tried to get vid to work-badly. Can Athy delete for me please as unable too..

[Athy]

Paul, I have tried to delete the video but it is unwilling, so I think we're stuck with your black 'ole - a pity, as I would have enjoyed watching it. I'm sorry I didn't see the actual boat, as you would have passed our house.

[tehmarks]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Smaller ones are (what today would be considered) underpowered and often engines put into NBs to make them appear 'traditional' are not ideal - the 1L2 (as has been said) was an ideal small 'Laboratory' engine but is not ideal for pushing a heavy steel boat, and is unlikely to have the power to drive an alternator as well.

I was already suspecting a lack of alternator and planning to need a generator for power and charging. That's no real hardship though.

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I would suggest that if you don't have a clue, you might not be that interested in vintage diesels in which case I would advise against buying this boat. If on the other hand you quite fancy the idea and are hoping for some encouragement, then I'd say go for it. In five years I predict you'll know a LOT about vintage gardners, most of it picked up from other owners who will stand and chat with you for hours delaying your boating. But to some of us, this chatting is part and parcel of the nature of boating.

 

As Dave pointed out earlier, these are not really proper vintage engines being key operated electric-start, and having no exposed/visible flywheel to see rotating. More like an early incarnation of a modern pre-common rail diesel. 

No. 2 mostly applies. I wouldn't say that I'm into vintage diesels specifically, but into the sort of boat that's likely to have a vintage diesel in it - tug-style with back cabin and engine room. Owning a vintage diesel doesn't put me off, but I do want a much more realistic idea of what I'd be getting myself into. And no key-operated electric start - this particular engine is apparently hand-cranked!

3 hours ago, OldGoat said:

Don't pay a premium price for a "chuggy" enginine - especially as you may be 'forced' to rreplace it later

No premium involved that I can see in this case.

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, tehmarks said:

I was already suspecting a lack of alternator and planning to need a generator for power and charging. That's no real hardship though

Don't take the matter of 'needing a generator' lightly.

 

Read up - there are several threads about the subject.

 

Petrol generators are not ideal, and you need to meet stringent storage and usage regulations. There have been a number if fatalities by people running petrol generators on boats. You can mitigate this by taking the generator off the boat and only refuelling and running it on the bankside.

DO NOT run it on the boat.

 

You can have an inbuilt diesel 'silent' generator but expect very little change from £7500-£10,000.

 

Some folks have a death-wish, as can be seen by the use of this "building site" diesel generator

 

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Some folks have a death-wish, as can be seen by the use of this "building site" diesel generator

 

 

Alan is terribly prone to exaggeration so while there is some truth in what he says, there are loads of boaters who manage fine with a petrol genny on the boat and haven't killed themselves or anyone else. They annoy the hell out of neighbours though with the noise.

 

In this case Alan has mis-counted. I reckon I can see TWO mahoosive building site diesel gennies, and a couple of petrols!

 

 

 

[tehmarks]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Don't take the matter of 'needing a generator' lightly.

 

Read up - there are several threads about the subject.

Very aware of the problems that generators can pose, as a long-time lurker and previous liveaboard. I came to the conclusion last time that running the engine to charge batteries didn't seem optimal from a wear or a cost perspective, and spent two years on the cusp of buying a generator despite having a perfectly capable modern engine to charge with.

 

Everything is a compromise, eh?

[Athy]

Out of interest, is your target boat 'Houdini'?

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

Paul, I have tried to delete the video but it is unwilling, so I think we're stuck with your black 'ole - a pity, as I would have enjoyed watching it. I'm sorry I didn't see the actual boat, as you would have passed our house.

I see the video 4 times in Paul’s post (plus a fifth one that didn’t work)

[Athy]

Just now, WotEver said:

I see the video 4 times in Paul’s post (plus a fifth one that didn’t work)

I see (or hear) four soundtracks and one black-screen video.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I reckon I can see TWO mahoosive building site diesel gennies, and a couple of petrols!

Which all mysteriously disappear for one day every 4 years no doubt. 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by WotEver
I typed what my fingers wanted as opposed to what my brain desired.

[Athy]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

.

 I reckon I can see TWO mahoosive building site diesel gennies, and a couple of petrols!

 

 

 

You mean the boat's owners are in the photo?

[tehmarks]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

Out of interest, is your target boat 'Houdini'?

It is indeed. Are you familiar with the boat?

Edited August 15, 2019 by tehmarks

[PaulJ]

2 hours ago, Athy said:

Paul, I have tried to delete the video but it is unwilling, so I think we're stuck with your black 'ole - a pity, as I would have enjoyed watching it. I'm sorry I didn't see the actual boat, as you would have passed our house.

Thanks Athy-I tried to delete it too but ended up with four more!

[Athy]

19 minutes ago, tehmarks said:

It is indeed. Are you familiar with the boat?

No I'm not, but I have read the advert. I'd say that she certainly isn't overpriced, as long as the hull is sound - which you will find out because the safety certificate has run out, so you must have a survey done in order to be able to take to the water legally. Needs brightening and tidying, but the price reflects this.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

28 minutes ago, Athy said:

No I'm not, but I have read the advert. I'd say that she certainly isn't overpriced, as long as the hull is sound - which you will find out because the safety certificate has run out, so you must have a survey done in order to be able to take to the water legally. Needs brightening and tidying, but the price reflects this.

 

Does the Safety certificate now require a Hull survey ?