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Battery Towing Tractors. A Cunning Plan to Replace Diesel Boat Engines


Jen-in-Wellies

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1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Because tractors are small. Think mobility scooter size. Boats are huge. If you charge electric boats from mains hook ups, you need hook up points wherever electric boats moor, which means high power electric cables and bollards all over the system, including out of the way moorings in the sticks, or boats fighting to get at limited charging capability. A huge expense to install and maintain. Tractors also use much less power to tow a boat than an electric boat needs to turn a propeller. Wheels on a towpath are just much more efficient at getting forward motion than a propeller whirling around in the water, so much smaller batteries are required, which means fewer charging points and lower times to charge them up again, or swap them out for charged ones. If a tractor carries enough charge for a days boating, then exchange stations, whether to exchange an entire tractor, or just the batteries, would only need to be about as frequent as sanitation stations are now. The busier the canal, then the bigger and more frequent the stations would need to be. It is all about the amount of power required and where that comes from, as well as making use of the towpath in a way that has disappeared with the horses. Just as a comparison. @peterboat's wide beam uses around 3000W of power to travel at 3mph. Around eight to ten times what I'm estimating a tractor drawn narrowboat will need. See

 

Horses are incredibly inefficient, nice creatures that they are. It takes a lot of feed all year round, from an immense area of land to feed a horse. It needs shelter, mucking out, vets and general looking after all the time, if it is towing boats, or not. It is why they were replaced by machines as soon as machines became practical. In general, that was boats with on board diesel engines and propellers in most cases, as they needed a smaller crew for the boat. The extra power to cope with the inefficiency of the propeller wasn't a problem as it was easily available by burning more oil in a bigger engine. Getting rid of fossil fuels means that energy efficiency becomes more critical, so thinking through how boats are moved is a good idea. Going back to the old horse way, where people had to work out how to use the limited power available (One Horse Power, literally!), helps, but use today's technology, electric motors, LiPo batteries, etc.

 

Jen

 

Jen

Anyone who's regularly cycled down muddy towpaths in winter will know how elusive traction is.  Any tyre on a tiny tractor which is able to dig in sufficiently to get enough traction to pull a boat will surely rip the towpath to pieces.  Horses hooves would do similar but to a lesser extent.  In practice, I'd foresee a whole lot of wheelspinning and tractors sliding about on muddy towpaths or grassed towpaths when they're wet.  The one horsepower of a horse is a far more successful use of power because legs and hooves create more torque than wheels.

 

Passing moored boats would be a problem.

Locks would be a problem

Many tunnels would be a problem

Rivers would be a problem

Canals with very narrow and/or unever towpaths would be a problem.

The sheer organising logistics of it would be a huge problem.

 

 

Other than that, it's genius.

 

What you really need, is a robot horse.

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14 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Anyone who's regularly cycled down muddy towpaths in winter will know how elusive traction is.  Any tyre on a tiny tractor which is able to dig in sufficiently to get enough traction to pull a boat will surely rip the towpath to pieces.  Horses hooves would do similar but to a lesser extent.  In practice, I'd foresee a whole lot of wheelspinning and tractors sliding about on muddy towpaths or grassed towpaths when they're wet.  The one horsepower of a horse is a far more successful use of power because legs and hooves create more torque than wheels.

Which is why towpath restoration back to the original standard would be required. Caterpillar tracks, rather than wheels might be the way to go.

 

14 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Passing moored boats would be a problem.

Locks would be a problem

Many tunnels would be a problem

Rivers would be a problem

All require learning skills that the old boaters have and we don't. I've always fancied legging tunnels. Did a bit on the Dudley Tunnel trip boat.

 

14 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Other than that, it's genius.

Thanks!

 

14 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

What you really need, is a robot horse.

Funny you should say that.

 

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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1 minute ago, doratheexplorer said:

Why not just get unemployed millenials to pull boats?  It would do them good.

 

(checks whether I'm a millenial - phew)

That would never work as they are incapable of any sort of manual labour as it’s beneath them and the pointless degree they have which they think entitled them to something. 

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13 minutes ago, frangar said:

That would never work as they are incapable of any sort of manual labour as it’s beneath them and the pointless degree they have which they think entitled them to something. 

 

 

Put an avocado just out of reach on a stick in front of them. Get banned by CaRT for speeding.

Only use the ones with a degree in canal boat towing obviously.

 

Jen,

Also a bit outside the Millenial demographic.

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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On 13/08/2019 at 13:46, KevMc said:

Can any one tell me how big the batteries need to be to power a boat ?  Maybe we can set up a system where they are simply pulled out at recharge points and replaced with newly charged ones (at a small cost obviously)

 

A 1hp quadruped alwasy worked quite well, so about 0.75kW would be enough power.

On 14/08/2019 at 10:09, Mike Todd said:

Most towpaths are wide enough to pass. Where they aren't, then that would be an area requiring upgrade. You couldn't pass in a bridge hole, but you couldn't with horses either.

 

Where it wasn't wide enough, the towpath would work exactly like a single-track road in the Scottish Highlands - the tractor would wait at a passing place. It would be easy enough ata closing speed of no more than 8mph to work out which passing place to use, and who should stop.

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43 minutes ago, Chris Williams said:

What about the miles of moored boats the towline would have to be lifted over? 

Definitely the end of having television aerials up of an evening. I suppose an extending pole to raise the tow line on the tractor is a possibility. Drop it again to clear the next bridge.

 

44 minutes ago, Chris Williams said:

Well, that's the end of Single-handed boating. 

Self driving tractors could be a possibility. Enough smarts to work out where the towpath is, so they don't drive in to the cut. Work out who has priority with an oncoming boat and drop the tow line. Maybe a bit of remote control from the boat, like raise the tow line to clear those moored boats ahead. Some built in intelligence would be an advantage for hire boats with crews completely new to boating.

 

47 minutes ago, Chris Williams said:

I think pedaloes will be the answer.

We can all agree on that. Don't think the example in the picture is going to fit under some bridges though. ?

 

Jen

  • Haha 1
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24 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

 

Self driving tractors could be a possibility. Enough smarts to work out where the towpath is, so they don't drive in to the cut. Work out who has priority with an oncoming boat and drop the tow line. Maybe a bit of remote control from the boat, like raise the tow line to clear those moored boats ahead. Some built in intelligence would be an advantage for hire boats with crews completely new to boating.

 

 

We already have them in Milton Keynes - just beef them up a bit (well, a lot)

 

Image result for starships in milton keynes

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Here is another thought. A motor is running at 300, or 400W in the tractor, towing your boat along. Meanwhile, on a sunny day, 500W or so from the solar PV capacity on the roof of your boat is charging a spare set of batteries for the next day, saving the need to go to a charging/swap station, unless the weather is foul and you still want to boat. Hirers and masochists only. Compare this with the amount of roof top solar needed for a solar PV and battery boat that is having to drive a big electric motor to spin an inefficient propeller. Much less. Room on the roof for some flowers planters as well as solar panels. Of course, they might get knocked in the cut by passing tow ropes.

 

Jen

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No-one has mentioned steam to replace the diesel engine.  With modern technology an efficient steam plant should be possible.  Burn anything - coal, all those bits of wood lying about, litter, CaRT notice boards, No Mooring signs, etc..

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44 minutes ago, Chris Williams said:

No-one has mentioned steam to replace the diesel engine.  With modern technology an efficient steam plant should be possible.  Burn anything - coal, all those bits of wood lying about, litter, CaRT notice boards, No Mooring signs, etc..

Steam towing of boats would be possible too, with a suitable size engine.

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I really like the sight, sound and smell of steam engines, but they aren't going to be any sort of answer to diesel. They are a very inefficient way to convert burnable material in to energy. Modern versions are better, but not enough. Coal is almost the worst fuel to burn. Fossil carbon, that you don't want adding to the atmosphere as CO2, plus lots of soot, SO2 

(acid rain), Mercury and radioactive nastiness being released in to the air. Less problem with wood and CaRT notices though.

Any examples where people have tried it in a boat and ended up with something as easy to use and taking up the same, or less space than diesel?

 

Jen

      

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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3 hours ago, Chris Williams said:

No-one has mentioned steam to replace the diesel engine.  With modern technology an efficient steam plant should be possible.  Burn anything - coal, all those bits of wood lying about, litter, CaRT notice boards, No Mooring signs, etc..

Post No. 2

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4 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

They are a very inefficient way to convert burnable material in to energy.

Nuclear power stations use steam turbines to run the generators, but size affects efficiency.

Anyway, the diesel is not going to fade away.  Reading ran their buses on old cooking oil.  All sorts of things could replace diesel oil.  You will just have to put up with your engine smelling like a chippys.

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I rather fancy the idea of an electric push tug chained to the arse end of a double pointed butty, tug perhaps styled after a Bantam.  No need to wind, just move the tug to the other end. Could use the tug separately, or for other unpowered boats. No batteries and stuff in main living boat, just solars. 

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1 minute ago, catweasel said:

I rather fancy the idea of an electric push tug chained to the arse end of a double pointed butty, tug perhaps styled after a Bantam.  No need to wind, just move the tug to the other end. Could use the tug separately, or for other unpowered boats. No batteries and stuff in main living boat, just solars. 

Why not just have a double ended live aboard and a little  tug boat ,????

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25 minutes ago, Spanners said:

Why not just have a double ended live aboard and a little  tug boat ,????

You have lost me I'm afraid. That is what I was proposing.: A double ended butty with a push tug (electric or possibly hybrid.)

Might also avoid VAT on a new build butty?

Edited by Guest
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How about something along the lines of a cable car system, each pound could have a cable running around the canal bed which you hook on to and get pulled along. Everyone moves at the same speed and if you want to stop you release the cable and steer in to the bank.  The cables could be driven by steam engines to provide something for Joe public to come and gawp at.

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On 15/08/2019 at 20:32, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Here is another thought. A motor is running at 300, or 400W in the tractor, towing your boat along. Meanwhile, on a sunny day, 500W or so from the solar PV capacity on the roof of your boat is charging a spare set of batteries for the next day, saving the need to go to a charging/swap station, unless the weather is foul and you still want to boat. Hirers and masochists only. Compare this with the amount of roof top solar needed for a solar PV and battery boat that is having to drive a big electric motor to spin an inefficient propeller. Much less. Room on the roof for some flowers planters as well as solar panels. Of course, they might get knocked in the cut by passing tow ropes.

 

Jen

Why bother with batteries on the boat. Just send the voles up the tow line to the tractor batteries. 

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21 minutes ago, Jim Riley said:

Why bother with batteries on the boat. Just send the voles up the tow line to the tractor batteries. 

A good idea, but likely to get expensive. I'd considered but rejected it. Back in horse towing days, the life of tow ropes was nasty brutish and short, despite the boaters using cotton ropes and talking great care of them. They were often in the water, then covered with mud and grit, then scraped across various metal guard irons. They also needed a bit of stretch in them to reduce the snatch on the boat and horse as the horse picked up the boats load. A stretchy rope with two embedded, insulated copper wires would be possible, but tricky. There would be room for a solar panel on top of the tractor though. Enough to trickle charge the batteries and make a little contribution.

 

These days, the rock climbing rope manufacturers would be able to put together the optimum synthetic towing rope for us in terms of strength, abrasion resistance and stretch.

 

Jen

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3 hours ago, Jim Riley said:

Why bother with batteries on the boat. Just send the voles up the tow line to the tractor batteries. 

I've just realised that I misread voles as volts in my previous reply. Anyone know how many voles it would take to tow a narrowboat at 3 or 4mph?

 

Jen

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