2 weeks boating in my electric boat

[Flyboy]

16 hours ago, peterboat said:

Ten batteries at £250 each luckily I got that for my engine and box I also had a lot of solar already, my first 4 batteries for domestic cost more though 

Your £2500 set of batteries will only last a tiny fraction of the lifespan of your diesel engine. The carbon footprint of producing all these batteries will probably exceed that of your diesel engine with your cruising pattern.

[Murflynn]

4 hours ago, Lily Rose said:

 

I agree with Mike that switching to EVs alone is not enough and it does feel rather like pissing in the wind.

 

There is not one single thing that will solve the climate emergency problem so it's no good saying "X is a waste of time, we need to stop doing Y as that is a bigger problem".

 

Yes, we need to stop using fossil fuels for our own personal transportation, which is why I am in favour of switching to EVs as they use less, albeit not zero depending on the generation mix.

 

But we also need to stop flying, stop going on cruise ships, stop buying stuff shipped half way round the world, stop buying landfill tat, eat much much less meat (especially beef and lamb), have a much more plant-based diet, stop heating our homes and offices with fossil fuels, stop cutting down Brazilian forests, stop electing people like Donald Chump and lots more besides. It just goes on and on.

 

Some of this is starting to happen slowly. Some of it there is little or no sign of yet. I expect these things will start to accelerate eventually but only when it becomes blindingly obvious to everyone, including the afore mentioned Chump and his ilk, that the human race is to blame. Unfortunately, by then it will probably be too late and we will a!ready be into runaway climate change that will ultimately result in extinction of our species and probably most others as well.

 

It may already be too late.

 

I think it probably is.

 

But that doesn't mean we should give up. Whilst there's still life there's still hope so I will continue to try to do my bit.

 

I reduce/re-use/recycle.

I do not fly.

I try to reduce unnecessary car journeys and try to drive with a light right foot.

I don't light my stove in the middle of August, no need, I have additional layers of clothing I can put on.I

I don't overheat my (reasonably) well-insulated house

I have solar panels so I can minimise engine running on non-cruising days.

I try to eat less meat. Especially beef and lamb.

And so on.

 

I admit I don't do enough of the above. I need to do better. But it's a start and I am trying.

 

Sadly though, I think it will all ultimately prove to be futile and the human race has totally screwed itself. It probably won't be our generation that pays the price though, it will be our children and their children, and there will be much pain and suffering along the way.

 

But looking on the bright side, the sun is out after a miserable non-cruising rainy day yesterday, so I can go cruising today and burn up some more fossil fuel along the way. But I will only do 2 or 3 hours and I will keep the revs down. Every little helps I suppose.

 

Happy daze.

 

 

 

trouble is that even if you did all the above the other 7 billion beings on this little planet will aspire to do exactly the same as you (hopefully) but it will still be too little too late.

 

the only solution is to install a lemming gene in future generations so that most of them will jump off a cliff as soon as they are allowed out.

[peterboat]

52 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

Because most of the people affected by pollution would not agree with the 2nd statement.

 

Even if they did they would no doubt prefer it if they and their children were not poisoned in the meantime. I know I would.

 

But for Mike that means change his diesel van is toast! Their are electric and hybrid alternatives so it's possible that he could make a difference, but it would require effort and cash. My change moment came when I held my granddaughter in my arms 

16 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

Your £2500 set of batteries will only last a tiny fraction of the lifespan of your diesel engine. The carbon footprint of producing all these batteries will probably exceed that of your diesel engine with your cruising pattern.

Wrong! 10.000 cycles is more than most diesels, plus they do other jobs

Honestly you need to Google stuff and read other threads on LifePo4 batteries 

[mrsmelly]

2 hours ago, Lily Rose said:

Mike, I'm pretty much in agreement with you on EVs I think, although perhaps a little bit more positive. They are still fairly insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Saying that though, when I'm stuck in a traffic jam on the motorway I would feel more comfortable if the hundreds of vehicles I could see around me were EVs powered by electricity generated from 50% (hopefully) or more non-fossil fuel and they would not be pumping out CO2 etc whilst they sat there going nowhere, or creeping along stop/start at 5mph.

 

I think they are worth switching to but not if it means scrapping an existing car when you take whole of life carbon footprints into account. I'm hoping that by the time my car needs scrapping EVs with 200+ mile real world ranges will be cheaper and easier to obtain but I think that's still a few years away yet.

 

The other benefit EVs have for towns and cities is that much of the pollution is shifted away from areas where it does the most harm.

 

I bloody well wouldnt. When you are in one of those jams ( there was one ont tother side of mi to us yesterday luckily for us ) it was there for 3 hours with road closed. It was peeing down with rain, luckily it was daylight but how many of those evs that were already well near their maximum range would have run out of juice due to wipers, heater blowers, lights on etc etc. Then be broken down all around you unable to move? How far are we supposed to genuinely risk taking a leccy vehicle before stopping to recharge? too many times we can be stuck ont road system no where to go.

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

I bloody well wouldnt. When you are in one of those jams ( there was one ont tother side of mi to us yesterday luckily for us ) it was there for 3 hours with road closed. It was peeing down with rain, luckily it was daylight but how many of those evs that were already well near their maximum range would have run out of juice due to wipers, heater blowers, lights on etc etc. Then be broken down all around you unable to move? How far are we supposed to genuinely risk taking a leccy vehicle before stopping to recharge? too many times we can be stuck ont road system no where to go.

Tim as time goes on people won't have a choice 

[mrsmelly]

Just now, peterboat said:

Tim as time goes on people won't have a choice 

So genuinely again I say, how the hell do we remove the one thousand plus flat batteried vehicles after a major motorway hold up in inclement weather? It WILL happen and what do you suggest will be done about it?

[peterboat]

5 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

So genuinely again I say, how the hell do we remove the one thousand plus flat batteried vehicles after a major motorway hold up in inclement weather? It WILL happen and what do you suggest will be done about it?

Because they will be self driving and wont have accidents or travel when only stupid people do

[Tumshie]

58 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I bloody well wouldnt. When you are in one of those jams ( there was one ont tother side of mi to us yesterday luckily for us ) it was there for 3 hours with road closed. It was peeing down with rain, luckily it was daylight but how many of those evs that were already well near their maximum range would have run out of juice due to wipers, heater blowers, lights on etc etc. Then be broken down all around you unable to move? How far are we supposed to genuinely risk taking a leccy vehicle before stopping to recharge? too many times we can be stuck ont road system no where to go.

 

53 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

So genuinely again I say, how the hell do we remove the one thousand plus flat batteried vehicles after a major motorway hold up in inclement weather? It WILL happen and what do you suggest will be done about it?

Do you really see this as an issue?

You do know that if they're not moving they are not using any energy? Don't you? Plus they use even less energy creeping along in a slow moving traffic jam than they do zooming along at 70, you don't use that much energy flicking a wiper every now and again surely and do you really need heaters when you could just keep a jumper for emergencies? I can think of lots of problems that need to be thought about but is this really one of them?

 

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Tumshie
spelling

[Lily Rose]

14 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I bloody well wouldnt. When you are in one of those jams ( there was one ont tother side of mi to us yesterday luckily for us ) it was there for 3 hours with road closed. It was peeing down with rain, luckily it was daylight but how many of those evs that were already well near their maximum range would have run out of juice due to wipers, heater blowers, lights on etc etc. Then be broken down all around you unable to move? How far are we supposed to genuinely risk taking a leccy vehicle before stopping to recharge? too many times we can be stuck ont road system no where to go.

 

I believe you exaggerate the risk. Unless an EV was already very low on energy I suspect it could last a lot more than 3 hours just using lights (LED) and a bit of heat. Wipers turned off if not moving. In any case, the vast majority of traffic jams don't last anything like 3 hours, that's an extreme case. I've been in many traffic jams over many years of daily commuting etc but never anywhere near 3 hours. Obviously they happen but they are exceptional.

 

I don't think an EV will ever be right for you, your extreme range anxiety would be the death of you.

 

From all I have read it seems most people with EVs manage to avoid running out of juice. They may suffer range anxiety early on but if they manage their batteries sensibly it soon goes away.

 

[Flyboy]

35 minutes ago, peterboat said:

But for Mike that means change his diesel van is toast! Their are electric and hybrid alternatives so it's possible that he could make a difference, but it would require effort and cash. My change moment came when I held my granddaughter in my arms 

Wrong! 10.000 cycles is more than most diesels, plus they do other jobs

Honestly you need to Google stuff and read other threads on LifePo4 batteries 

Pure fantasy, nobody has done 10,000 charging cycle on an EV to prove your theory. 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Flyboy

[peterboat]

9 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

 

Do you really see this as an issue?

You do know that if they're not moving they are not using any energy? Don't you? Plus they use even less energy creeping along in a slow moving traffic jan than they do zooming along at 70, you don't use that much energy flicking a wiper every now and again surely and do you really need heaters when you could just keep a jumper for emergencies? I can think of lots of problems that need to be thought about but is this really one of them?

 

Virtual greenie BP have just announced their new charging stations very fast suit all cars and know doubt signals a change in direction of oil companies. How long before Evs are the majority?

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

Pure fantasy, nobody has done 10,000 charging cycle on an EV to prove your theory. 

Model S telas are already clocking up over half a million miles just because you don't want something doesn't mean it isn't happening. Remember what happened to the dinosaurs they became extinct 

[Lily Rose]

8 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Model S telas are already clocking up over half a million miles just because you don't want something doesn't mean it isn't happening. Remember what happened to the dinosaurs they became extinct 

 

Peter, I wouldn't put much faith in anything Flyboy says. Remember, he thinks EVs can only do short journeys. 

 

He was probably a milkman and hasn't yet realised things have moved on a bit since he drove his milk float.

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Lily Rose

[peterboat]

7 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

 

Peter, I wouldn't put much faith in anything Flyboy says. Remember, he thinks EVs can only do short journeys. 

 

He was probably a milkman and hasn't yet realised things have moved on a bit since he drove his milk float.

 

I know its hard work isn't it

[mrsmelly]

45 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

 

Do you really see this as an issue?

You do know that if they're not moving they are not using any energy? Don't you? Plus they use even less energy creeping along in a slow moving traffic jan than they do zooming along at 70, you don't use that much energy flicking a wiper every now and again surely and do you really need heaters when you could just keep a jumper for emergencies? I can think of lots of problems that need to be thought about but is this really one of them?

 

mmmmmm methinks you must be kidding. In cold winter weather cars need lights on permenantly and Heating which will be the killer blow for leccy vehicles. No heat being produced when stood still on a motorway from the motor so where does the heat for the interior and windscreen come from? Producing heat from batteries is a no no on boats when not ont national grid. It will all come but we will all be long dead before it happens. I suggest this winter you venture out on a cold night with no heated rear window on and no heating and see how far your jumper takes you.

[Flyboy]

29 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Model S telas are already clocking up over half a million miles just because you don't want something doesn't mean it isn't happening. Remember what happened to the dinosaurs they became extinct 

No single Tesla S has done 10,000 charging cycles.  10,000 cycles equates to recharging everyday for approx 28 years. You seem to think I'm against the technology, I'm not, it's just not proven technology yet.

[frangar]

17 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

mmmmmm methinks you must be kidding. In cold winter weather cars need lights on permenantly and Heating which will be the killer blow for leccy vehicles. No heat being produced when stood still on a motorway from the motor so where does the heat for the interior and windscreen come from? Producing heat from batteries is a no no on boats when not ont national grid. It will all come but we will all be long dead before it happens. I suggest this winter you venture out on a cold night with no heated rear window on and no heating and see how far your jumper takes you.

Friends of ours have a new top spec Leaf...to max the range they look like they are going on an artic expedition in winter....

 

Electric cars have a place but for those of us that regularly do long journeys with a car full of luggage & equipment it’s going to be a long while yet. 

[Tumshie]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

mmmmmm methinks you must be kidding. In cold winter weather cars need lights on permenantly and Heating which will be the killer blow for leccy vehicles. No heat being produced when stood still on a motorway from the motor so where does the heat for the interior and windscreen come from? Producing heat from batteries is a no no on boats when not ont national grid. It will all come but we will all be long dead before it happens. I suggest this winter you venture out on a cold night with no heated rear window on and no heating and see how far your jumper takes you.

I'm not kidding I didn't say they would use no energy just that they would use much less - They don't use energy when they aren't moving and they only use a tiny amount when just rolling along. As for light yes obviously but they use LED lights now, I must confess to not being keen on having heating on to warm the car, I just don't like it and it has to be really Boltic before an extra jumper isn't enough for me but defogging windows is obviously necessary. 

 

Can they go on indefinitely no obviously not but they are not all going to conk out after half an our either. Also I hear these days you can get this thing called travel reports - I don't have much need for them myself the last traffic jam I was in was caused by a heard of feral goats having a barney. ? That last bit really not kidding (no pun intended - honest) 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Tumshie

[Murflynn]

I believe that by 2040 the mode of use of private vehicles will be vastly different. 

 

Personal EVs used for short journeys, to go shopping, take the kiddies to skule, or travel to the park'n'ride hub.  Some privately owned, but many will be self-drive taxis that turn up like Uber, on demand, or can be picked up from convenient locations where they will be charged when not in use, perhaps within 1km of your home, or less.

 

Electric buses, trains, or perhaps convoys of long distance cars travelling between hubs.

 

The problem will be that not all of us will want to fit our travel patterns into these modes, and not all of us will live in urban environments where such modes are feasible.  How will I collect building materials from B&Q, or tow my trailer boat to the slipway in some remote village?  How will I take the family camping in unspoilt countryside?  Perhaps we will need to plan in advance and hire a specialist vehicle for such tasks.  Perhaps the sign of affluence will be the ownership of several EVs (like the typical multi-car family of today), each suited to a different duty, while the not-so-well-off will have to manage by hiring when not using public transport. 

 

 

On a slightly different topic, how will the masses who park their car in the street in the nearest available space, which is sometimes a few doors down from where they live, manage to charge their vehicles, and even if parked in allocated slots outside their own house how will the charging leads be protected where they cross the pavement?   Will we see overhead gantries poking out from terraced houses over the pavement, dropping the lead down to the car?

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Murflynn

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

I bloody well wouldnt. When you are in one of those jams ( there was one ont tother side of mi to us yesterday luckily for us ) it was there for 3 hours with road closed. It was peeing down with rain, luckily it was daylight but how many of those evs that were already well near their maximum range would have run out of juice due to wipers, heater blowers, lights on etc etc. Then be broken down all around you unable to move? How far are we supposed to genuinely risk taking a leccy vehicle before stopping to recharge? too many times we can be stuck ont road system no where to go.

 

And independent testing seems to show that just like with ICE cars, the manufacturers of EV's still manage to massage the range figures.

 

I thought the introduction of the WLTP tests was supposed to givereal world figures for both ICE cars and EV's but it appears not.

 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-7364605/Test-reveals-range-Teslas-Model-3-90-miles-claimed.html

 

The problem with manufacturers lying about range is that they put people's off buying them if The range is significantly less than claimed, ultimately they are shooting themselves in Tthe foot.

Edited August 17, 2019 by cuthound

[MtB]

14 minutes ago, cuthound said:

The problem with manufacturers lying about range is that they put people's off buying them if The range is significantly less than claimed, ultimately they are shooting themselves in Tthe foot.

 

This, exactly. I cannot justify buying an electric van until two things happen:

 

1) Manus' range claims can be trusted, and/or independent and trustworthy range evidence becomes available. This is only one aspect of range anxiety.

2) I can be sure of a compatible fast charge station being available within reach of my route when I start to get low. This is a sub-anxiety of headline range anxiety.

 

Until then or until diesel becomes unavailable I will probably continue using my diesel van, because I frankly don't believe giving it up will make any difference to the Big Picture. I can imagine the day coming (possibly fairly soon) when running an electric van plays well with the boiler repair customers, which will influence me too. 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Mike the Boilerman
grammer

[Mike Todd]

15 hours ago, peterboat said:

Mike it all helps and the reality is car makers will drop ICE cars once electric cars become the norm, and that is coming rapidly

What is your estimate for when that crossover will happen?

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Because they will be self driving and wont have accidents or travel when only stupid people do

You really do shoot yourself in the foot with comments like that. It demeans proper argument and debate.

[Tumshie]

16 minutes ago, cuthound said:

And independent testing seems to show that just like with ICE cars, the manufacturers of EV's still manage to massage the range figures.

The fact that range was being published as the range under test conditions and not real world miles got to a lot of people so now you can always find reviews that will tell you the actual range and the car companies aren't getting away with it so don't push the range unrealistically as much as the used to. Having said that all companies try to make their selves and their product look good so while they might not lie they will quote the best range under the best conditions. 

[cuthound]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This, exactly. I cannot justify buying an electric van until two things happen:

 

1) Manus' range claims can be trusted, and/or independent and trustworthy range evidence becomes available. This is only one aspect of range anxiety.

2) I can be sure of a compatible fast charge station being available within reach of my route when I start to get low. This is a sub-anxiety of headline range anxiety.

 

Until then or until diesel becomes unavailable I will probably continue using my diesel van, because I frankly don't believe giving it up will make any difference to the Big Picture. I can imagine the day coming (possibly fairly soon) when running an electric van plays well with the boiler repair customers, which will influence me too. 

 

 

 

 

Will people need boilers repairing in the near future?

 

I saw an item on the local news where new builds where being built with piped hot water from their energy company to heat and provide domestic hot water for all the houses on the estate.

 

Mind you the customers weren't happy because the energy company (the French owned one) had found a way to circumnavigate the Ofgen restrictions by bundling the hot water with electricity and gas. The energy and hot water was on an 80, yes 80 year contract with annual rises above inflation. ?

Just now, Tumshie said:

The fact that range was being published as the range under test conditions and not real world miles got to a lot of people so now you can always find reviews that will tell you the actual range and the car companies aren't getting away with it so don't push the range unrealistically as much as the used to. Having said that all companies try to make their selves and their product look good so while they might not lie they will quote the best range under the best conditions. 

 

Yes by a 27% shortfall in warm weather and daylight from the most credible EV manufacturer really is taking the pith.  ?

[Tumshie]

2 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Yes by a 27% shortfall in warm weather and daylight from the most credible EV manufacturer really is taking the pith.  ?

Is it 27%? Where did that figure come from? How is it worked out? Not saying it not true I'm just curious how 27% is calculated and is it also real world?