2 weeks boating in my electric boat

[Lily Rose]

3 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

I expect it will. Eventually. Doesn't happen overnight, we're still in the early stages of a massive transition.

 

I am all in favour of it although I still don't think EVs (or Brexit or anything else) is going to matter much ultimately as this planet is going to hell in a handcart and nothing like the amount of change needed will happen until it's too late, if it isn't already.

 

Perhaps those anti-natalists have a point and the planet would be far better off without the human race which seems hell-bent on destroying it (and each other).

 

[Onionman]

1 hour ago, frangar said:

But a charging point in this case caters for one vehicle..a fuel station has many pumps...and can service a lot more cars per hour than a charging point....but that matter seems to have escaped some. 

 And the fact that only around 1% of cars are electric at the moment seems to have escaped others.

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

The difference being I fill my boat with diesel 2 or 3 times a year. I fill my car with diesel once a month, but batteries will not have the storage capacity, so electric cars and boats need recharging more frequently. 

 

Charging also at present takes much longer thsn refuelling.

 

The number of charging points needs to reflect the above.

 

That's a bold forecast.  Would you have said the same about mobile phones in the 1980's when a brick-sized battery gave half an hour of talk time?

[Onionman]

9 hours ago, Flyboy said:

How many new power stations are being built to supply all these charging locations?

 

Genuinely interested why that's relevant to the debate? How about "How many fuel refineries will shut down when charging stations become the norm"?

[peterboat]

9 hours ago, Flyboy said:

How many new power stations are being built to supply all these charging locations?

Every day they are being built and put up! They are called wind turbines 

[MtB]

 

An emerging problem with all these electric charging points is that some are proprietary. Imagine you are banking on a recharge at Fleet Services on the M3 in Hampshire. This is what you will greet you, a bank of what I suspect are "Tesla only" charging points. This short of rubbish cannot be allowed to continue.  Certainly the heavy branding sends out a "Tesla only" message even if any EV can use them.

 

 

 

 

Similarly, there are about six different other charging point suppliers and to use each of them you have to open an account, and they all use different methods of billing you. Never mind big price differences!  According to the BBC this is. Not personal experience. 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Mike the Boilerman
Add a bit

[peterboat]

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

An emerging problem with all these electric charging points is that some are proprietary. Imagine you are banking on a recharge at Fleet Services on the M3 in Hampshire. This is what you will greet you, a bank of what I suspect are "Tesla only" charging points. This short of rubbish cannot be allowed to continue. 

 

 

 

Not really Mike he is selling a lot of cars and putting in the charging stations for them, also a lot of his cars were sold with free public charging for life, so he has a duty of care to supply that, its the same at Woodall services near me that Neil uses, allways a poit free for him

[MtB]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

Not really Mike he is selling a lot of cars and putting in the charging stations for them, also a lot of his cars were sold with free public charging for life, so he has a duty of care to supply that, its the same at Woodall services near me that Neil uses, allways a poit free for him

 

So can any car use these? Or not?

 

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

So can any car use these? Or not?

 

 

 

Well not a lot of point trying with a petrol, or diesel, or LPG, or steam car.

 

Jen ?

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

So can any car use these? Or not?

 

 

 

No only Tesla, the other charging stations will be somewhere else. Elon does this right he sells cars that can be charged very fast and puts in the infrastructure to do it, other car makers need to take a leaf out of his book and follow suit

[MtB]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

No only Tesla, the other charging stations will be somewhere else. Elon does this right he sells cars that can be charged very fast and puts in the infrastructure to do it, other car makers need to take a leaf out of his book and follow suit

 

Free charging for life will probably turn out to be a really good deal I think. Is that still the case?

 

There has to be some benefit to buying a car that is £50k overpriced. 

\

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

other car makers need to take a leaf out of his book and follow suit

I thought it was Nissan that made the Leaf, not Tesla?

?

[Flyboy]

18 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Every day they are being built and put up! They are called wind turbines 

They will be a lot of use when there's no wind. The existing power stations won't be able to cope with demand.

22 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

An emerging problem with all these electric charging points is that some are proprietary. Imagine you are banking on a recharge at Fleet Services on the M3 in Hampshire. This is what you will greet you, a bank of what I suspect are "Tesla only" charging points. This short of rubbish cannot be allowed to continue.  Certainly the heavy branding sends out a "Tesla only" message even if any EV can use them.

 

 

 

 

Similarly, there are about six different other charging point suppliers and to use each of them you have to open an account, and they all use different methods of billing you. Never mind big price differences!  According to the BBC this is. Not personal experience. 

 

 

Would that be a diesel generator in the green shed ?

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

They will be a lot of use when there's no wind. The existing power stations won't be able to cope with demand.

Would that be a diesel generator in the green shed ?

 

Almost certainly. 

 

I was saving that for later!

 

 

[mrsmelly]

10 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

They will be a lot of use when there's no wind. The existing power stations won't be able to cope with demand.

Would that be a diesel generator in the green shed ?

Naaaah, would need to be much bigger to supply those  charging points 

In fairness though surely Tesla can advertise on their posts, after all,  go to a petrol station and they have Shell etc or whatever painted on their pumps.

[Lily Rose]

40 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Similarly, there are about six different other charging point suppliers and to use each of them you have to open an account, and they all use different methods of billing you. Never mind big price differences!  According to the BBC this is. Not personal experience. 

 

 

The different ways to pay and the need to have different accounts and/or carry different cards is a big problem but I think changes may be on the way. A few weeks ago this was being discussed on Moneybox and I think they said rules are to be brought in that means all charge points will need to accept contactless credit and debit card payments as one of the options. Dunno what the timescales are.

 

Different types of charger is an issue but Zap Map (and probably the car's built in software) tells you what chargers are at each location so it shouldn't be a surprise when you arrive.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

Different types of charger is an issue but Zap Map (and probably the car's built in software) tells you what chargers are at each location so it shouldn't be a surprise when you arrive.

 

Blimey you you really can't just look at the map and plan a long journey based on charger locations? You have to make sure the chargers are compatible with your car?

 

What an amazing fkkup.

 

 

[Lily Rose]

6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Blimey you you really can't just look at the map and plan a long journey based on charger locations? You have to make sure the chargers are compatible with your car?

 

What an amazing fkkup.

 

 

It's the same old story of lack of standardisation just like VHS vs Betamax vs Philips V2000. But much more important.

 

I don't think the planning is that difficult though, as the car's software will only show compatible locations and Zap Map has filters to do the same.

 

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

I don't think the planning is that difficult though, as the car's software will only show compatible locations and Zap Map has filters to do the same.

 

Yeah I get that, but people here posting maps showing all the charging places is grossly misleading as it gives the impression they are more common than the reality, once you commit to a brand of car.

 

 

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Onionman said:

 And the fact that only around 1% of cars are electric at the moment seems to have escaped others.

 

That's a bold forecast.  Would you have said the same about mobile phones in the 1980's when a brick-sized battery gave half an hour of talk time?

 

Law of diminishing returns.

 

The current and theoretical power density of  most batteries types can be googled.

 

Currently aluminium air batteries offer one of the highest power density 1300 - 8000 wh/kg, but seem to only be used by the military. However they are primary cells which must be repaced when expired (like AA batteries ?) but are virtually completly recyclable, so it may be possible to make them modular and have battery replacement stations rather than fuel filling stations. I saw a working protype in the mid 80's but like the fuel cell it seems to be taking a long time to reach production.

 

Lithium ion batteries have a power density of 100-265 wh/kg

[MtB]

1 minute ago, cuthound said:

 

Law of diminishing returns.

 

The current and theoretical power density of  most batteries types can be googled.

 

Currently aluminium air batteries offer one of the highest power density 1300 - 8000 wh/kg, but seem to only be used by the military. However they are primary cells which must be repaced when expired (like AA batteries ?) but are virtually completly recyclable, so it may be possible to make them modular and have battery replacement stations rather than fuel filling stations. I saw a working protype in the mid 80's but like the fuel cell it seems to be taking a long time to reach production.

 

Lithium ion batteries have a power density of 100-265 wh/kg

 

So an order of magnitude above lithium by weight. How about by volume? Sounds very promising for EV use as range will jump from 50 miles to 500 miles.

 

 

[Onionman]

47 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

They will be a lot of use when there's no wind. The existing power stations won't be able to cope with demand.

 

I'd love to see the evidence you have for that. Luddites of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your diesel

 

 

18 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Blimey you you really can't just look at the map and plan a long journey based on charger locations? You have to make sure the chargers are compatible with your car?

 

What an amazing fkkup.

 

 

 

It'll take the EU to legislate a type approval for charging points. Which they will do but the technology is new. They'll do it soon (as the EU fights restrictive practices like this by businesses) then you'll be able to cross Europe and use any charger anywhere and it'll fit your vehicle.

[cuthound]

21 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Blimey you you really can't just look at the map and plan a long journey based on charger locations? You have to make sure the chargers are compatible with your car?

 

What an amazing fkkup.

 

 

 

It's what always happens when something important to take up is left to the private market.

 

Governments across the world need to dictate a mutually compatible standard.

[Onionman]

4 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Law of diminishing returns.

 

The current and theoretical power density of  most batteries types can be googled.

 

Currently aluminium air batteries offer one of the highest power density 1300 - 8000 wh/kg, but seem to only be used by the military. However they are primary cells which must be repaced when expired (like AA batteries ?) but are virtually completly recyclable, so it may be possible to make them modular and have battery replacement stations rather than fuel filling stations. I saw a working protype in the mid 80's but like the fuel cell it seems to be taking a long time to reach production.

 

Lithium ion batteries have a power density of 100-265 wh/kg

 

Graphene power storage anyone? Not all technologies are based on current battery types.

[cuthound]

54 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

They will be a lot of use when there's no wind. The existing power stations won't be able to cope with demand.

Would that be a diesel generator in the green shed ?

 

Perhaps it's a recycling bin for old Tesla batteries? Can't do 'em much good charging them that quickly. ?

Edited August 16, 2019 by cuthound
Spillung

[MtB]

Just now, Onionman said:

 

Graphene power storage anyone? Not all technologies are based on current battery types.

 

Yes I do wonder if EVs are a blind alley. Technology has a habit of throwing up solutions to a problem that come from a totally different direction.