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Is two pack worth it?


GUMPY

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24 minutes ago, dmr said:

Its not going to be easy to get a good answer to this, most boaters will recommend the one they have used. Unless we know of several boats done in the different brands, with equal quality of prep and then several years of similar useage then its all quesswork.

 

 

Except some boaters have used both and know which is better... 

 

I've always blacked my own boat - obviously I didn't prep it for the two pack as I had it grit blasted, but I used to do a load of prep when using bitumen blacking and had blokes in 2 different yards tell me that my diy prep was more thorough than their own (not difficult - most yards do a half-arsed job). I used to use a couple of coats of Primocon underwater primer before applying 4 coats of blacking but no matter how well I prepped and how many coats of primer or blacking I applied it never lasted more than 3 years. 

 

If you're prepared to get your boat out regularly then fine - blacking will do. As for myself, I'm painting a 12ft widebeam on my own so I would rather do the job less frequently.

 

International Primocon Primer - gives blacking an extra year

P1000400.JPG

Edited by blackrose
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8 minutes ago, cuthound said:

My boat was 2 packed from new with International Interzone 954.

 

https://www.boatpaint.co.uk/acatalog/International--Interzone-954.html

 

It has been docked every 4 years on average, and touched up where necessary, usuallly on the rubbing strakes.

 

The boat is now 12 years old and is in dry dock being blacked with the same, so I reckon that it is cost effective. In particular, anodes seem to last longer with two pack, particularly as it is rare for much metal to be exposed (other than the baseplate) between docking. My original anodes lasted 10 years.

You are certainly right about anodes lasting longer with two pack. After 8 years in the water my barge in Ireland, the anodes are like new (yes, I did go sub aqua in the freezing clear waters of a Shannon tributary....BBBRRRRR!)

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Well I pondered for some time before making my decision to have high pressure was followed by 2 pk. It may be right it may be wrong, who knows for another 3 years. If its fallen off I will have wasted the difference in cost of the paint. I dont think standard black is 100% waterproof so we will see if we have rust around the water line, at least all the diesel I have been through this trip wont eat it away. 

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3 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Except some boaters have used both and know which is better... 

 

I've always blacked my own boat - obviously I didn't prep it for the two pack as I had it grit blasted, but I used to do a load of prep when using bitumen blacking and had blokes in 2 different yards tell me that my diy prep was more thorough than their own (not difficult - most yards do a half-arsed job). I used to use a couple of coats of Primocon underwater primer before applying 4 coats of blacking but no matter how well I prepped and how many coats of primer or blacking I applied it never lasted more than 3 years. 

 

If you're prepared to get your boat out regularly then fine - blacking will do. As for myself, I'm painting a 12ft widebeam on my own so I would rather do the job less frequently.

My post was in answer to the question, "which brand of epoxy is the best?" ? :)

 

Like you I have used both blacking and epoxy and would choose epoxy every time.

A friend has used Primocon on his sea sailing boat and was not too impressed.

 

..............Dave

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8 minutes ago, dmr said:

My post was in answer to the question, "which brand of epoxy is the best?" ? :)

 

Like you I have used both blacking and epoxy and would choose epoxy every time.

A friend has used Primocon on his sea sailing boat and was not too impressed.

 

..............Dave

 

Ah ok, I misunderstood. In that case some are easier for the diyer than others. That's another factor for me. If you can do a decent job it's likely to last longer.

 

Primocon isn't bad but it's just a single-pack primer so it's not going to last. I found that even when the blacking was scraped the Primocon would stay on - at least for the first couple of years. I'm not sure it's for salty use though? Jotun do the same thing - they call it Vinyguard so there's obviously a market.

Edited by blackrose
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Just now, blackrose said:

 

Ah ok, I misunderstood.

 

Primocon isn't bad but it's just a single-pack primer. It's not going to last. Jotun do the same thing - they call it Vinyguard so there's obviously a market.

Some folk go to bare metal using little more than hand tools, apply Vatcan etc and then a primer, then Keelblack. What a lot of bother to maybe get an extra year of protection, or maybe only a few weeks of protection if what a friend told me is true. Its so obvious that epoxy is the way to go but some people just won't admit it. The only big question is whether its just epoxy or a hot spray of zinc first :)

 

..............Dave

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3 minutes ago, dmr said:

Some folk go to bare metal using little more than hand tools, apply Vatcan etc and then a primer, then Keelblack. What a lot of bother to maybe get an extra year of protection, or maybe only a few weeks of protection if what a friend told me is true.

 

Yes, that was me, but I tend to be a bit OCD when it comes to boat maintenance.

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Our boat had been blacked with bitumen up to ten years old. We had it blasted and two packed in 2014 and still looking good. I would never use bitumen again, I don't think it is as good quality as it once was. Seemed to last no time at all despite meticulous preparation and application. It is coming out next year for anodes, usual checks and maybe some touch ups to the two pack coating.

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12 minutes ago, catweasel said:

Our boat had been blacked with bitumen up to ten years old. We had it blasted and two packed in 2014 and still looking good. I would never use bitumen again, I don't think it is as good quality as it once was. Seemed to last no time at all despite meticulous preparation and application. It is coming out next year for anodes, usual checks and maybe some touch ups to the two pack coating.

 

I'm planning to do the same. I did mine in 2015 so I'll get the boat out for a look next summer.

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I chose to go with 2 pack just because the last time I used bitumen it only lasted 15 months - along the waterline it really didn't do well. Probably because the boat spent about 6 months in a marina, and diesel dissolved it.

 

So far I've found the 2 pack to be incredibly tough and where I've scraped the side of a lock, all that happened was the 2 pack just went a bit dull looking.

 

Chris.

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14 hours ago, Chris_777 said:

I chose to go with 2 pack just because the last time I used bitumen it only lasted 15 months - along the waterline it really didn't do well. Probably because the boat spent about 6 months in a marina, and diesel dissolved it.

 

So far I've found the 2 pack to be incredibly tough and where I've scraped the side of a lock, all that happened was the 2 pack just went a bit dull looking.

 

Chris.

Our winter mooring is in a marina, and I think that is what killed our previous bitumen blacking. Since going to epoxy stuff there has been no deterioration at the waterline. 

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On one of our MSC passages in NB Earnest (Intertuff 16 single pack) we ended up with hardly any blacking at the waterline.

With the barge in Ireland (Hempel Hempadur 45143 2 pack epoxy) we have even managed a bit of light ice breaking, with out effecting the coating at the waterline. Impervious to the often oily conditions in our marina.

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They say a "fool and his money are easily parted". We`ve had our boat blasted and zinc metal sprayed with a 2 pack finish. Told not to bother checking for up to at least 5 years. BUT anodes etc will need attention so obviously will lift for inspection. My thoughts were as a new boat but at our age when resale must be considered I`m optimistic that it will aid an early sale when and if required.

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15 minutes ago, jddevel said:

They say a "fool and his money are easily parted". We`ve had our boat blasted and zinc metal sprayed with a 2 pack finish. Told not to bother checking for up to at least 5 years. BUT anodes etc will need attention so obviously will lift for inspection. My thoughts were as a new boat but at our age when resale must be considered I`m optimistic that it will aid an early sale when and if required.

I could be wrong, I sometimes am, but if you are hot sprayed zinc then I think you don't need anodes, the zinc is an all over anode.

5 years is a little optimistic, I would go for 3 or maybe 4, but it depends on how much and hard you use your boats. There are some places where you can do a "below the water line inspection" to check for scrapes without coming out. Liverpool Salthouse is a good example, but also maybe the Thames or other clean river, and some little used canals in winter.

 

................Dave

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18 minutes ago, dmr said:

I could be wrong, I sometimes am, but if you are hot sprayed zinc then I think you don't need anodes, the zinc is an all over anode.

5 years is a little optimistic, I would go for 3 or maybe 4, but it depends on how much and hard you use your boats. There are some places where you can do a "below the water line inspection" to check for scrapes without coming out. Liverpool Salthouse is a good example, but also maybe the Thames or other clean river, and some little used canals in winter.

 

................Dave

BCN old mainline is amazingly clear in places, even in summer!

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I've been considering and from all the comments unless I am keeping the boat another 10 years which I'm not doing 2 pack is not worth it. 

Before I sell up in 2025 costs would be

2 pak £1600

or

1x Blacking in 2022/3 £650 (2020 blacking is included in repaint)

I have better things to spend nearly a grand on .......

 

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13 minutes ago, Loddon said:

I've been considering and from all the comments unless I am keeping the boat another 10 years which I'm not doing 2 pack is not worth it. 

Before I sell up in 2025 costs would be

2 pak £1600

or

1x Blacking in 2022/3 £650 (2020 blacking is included in repaint)

I have better things to spend nearly a grand on .......

 

A question which hasn’t been asked or answered is, does 2 pack blacking affect resale value? Don’t know.

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The majority of a good paint system is the prep. The is no point putting the best paint you can get over a muddy flaking rusty mess, you might as well use drainpipe paint. Equally I would next used low quality paint on something as expensive as a narrowboat.

 

Our hull was shot blasted from new, epoxy blast primer in within half an hour, etc. We now maintain it with a singlepack, vinyl copolymer resin paint (Resistex M535) which seems to last 4-5years between coats with reasonable amount of use and moderate prep. it is reasonable soft and doesn't flake, if also quite abrasion resistant. The longer interval saving the time and money involved drydocking more often, particular as for me it's a weeks annual leave. 

 

In terms of your application it very much depends what's on the hull now, as whenever you use needs to be compatible. However it might be that using a reasonable quality of something compatible with the current coating and re doing it every 2-3years has as much going for it as investment in moving to something more expensive and long lasting. 

 

 

Daniel

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2 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Would you like the view from an expert?

 

For background, I spent 10 years as Technical manager of a group developing surface tolerant 2 pack epoxy coatings for BP Chemicals in the 80's and have significant field experience of applying them in difficult environments (ie offshore splash zone etc). I know 2 pack epoxies. I know how they need to be applied. 2 pack epoxy is the best coating for a narrow boat.

 

When applied to the manufacturers specs, the coatings should last 10 years. YES. 10 years and maybe more .......as long as they are applied right. Blacking lasts up to 2 years and can look pretty naff after just a few months. The only saving grace of blacking is that the steel is thick and boats last a long time as there is a lot of steel to corrode away.  We bought our boat over 2 years ago and had it blacked after a few months. We've just had it blacked again. Why? It wasnt the cost. This time it was more the convenience of a quick 'in and out'. I think though now having seen how our first blacking survived and now the 2nd one (which was applied by a yard in good weather) is deteriorating...although will be ok for another year or so...... I will go for a two pack in a few years time. It's not urgent to me though. There is lots of steel left. I do not worry at all about my blacking (and I know coatings).

Yes, we will switch to 2 pack but my biggest worry is finding a yard that will do it properly. I spent 10 years watching professional coating companies screwing up many many jobs even with paint inspectors monitoring the work. Temperature/moisture when applying is very difficult in the UK and the source of many problems. Last year there was an enquiry on here by someone who had a soft coating after their 2 packing and I organised some 3rd party testing of the coating in a UK based lab to check state of cure etc. The results clearly showed something had gone wrong in the application. An expensive mistake. It really does make me worry about finding a yard I can be convinced with who really knows what they are doing and don't cut corners which is the main cause of problems.

I zingered my boat and was heavily involved from beginning to end! we glass blasted an area wiped it clean and applied zinger, this continued until all boat coated. It was then panel wiped and tak ragged, before the next two coats, it was then finished with zinger blacking. hard work yes, dirty yes, no rust or problems, I have had the boat out and keelblacked it for cosmetic reasons plus other issues, so have discovered the keelblack seems to be staying well stuck on even where I have hit things

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11 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Would you like the view from an expert?

 

For background, I spent 10 years as Technical manager of a group developing surface tolerant 2 pack epoxy coatings for BP Chemicals in the 80's and have significant field experience of applying them in difficult environments (ie offshore splash zone etc). I know 2 pack epoxies. I know how they need to be applied. 2 pack epoxy is the best coating for a narrow boat.

 

When applied to the manufacturers specs, the coatings should last 10 years. YES. 10 years and maybe more .......as long as they are applied right. Blacking lasts up to 2 years and can look pretty naff after just a few months. The only saving grace of blacking is that the steel is thick and boats last a long time as there is a lot of steel to corrode away.  We bought our boat over 2 years ago and had it blacked after a few months. We've just had it blacked again. Why? It wasnt the cost. This time it was more the convenience of a quick 'in and out'. I think though now having seen how our first blacking survived and now the 2nd one (which was applied by a yard in good weather) is deteriorating...although will be ok for another year or so...... I will go for a two pack in a few years time. It's not urgent to me though. There is lots of steel left. I do not worry at all about my blacking (and I know coatings).

Yes, we will switch to 2 pack but my biggest worry is finding a yard that will do it properly. I spent 10 years watching professional coating companies screwing up many many jobs even with paint inspectors monitoring the work. Temperature/moisture when applying is very difficult in the UK and the source of many problems. Last year there was an enquiry on here by someone who had a soft coating after their 2 packing and I organised some 3rd party testing of the coating in a UK based lab to check state of cure etc. The results clearly showed something had gone wrong in the application. An expensive mistake. It really does make me worry about finding a yard I can be convinced with who really knows what they are doing and don't cut corners which is the main cause of problems.

 

My boat was shotblasted, painted with Zinga and then blacked with 2 pack from new 12 years ago.

 

Only now has the 2 pack begin to deteriorate, so it is being re blacked with 2 pack before it affects the Zinga too much.

 

I think it is a no brainer to go for 2 pack if you intend to keep the boat for 5 years or more.

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12 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Would you like the view from an expert?

 

For background, I spent 10 years as Technical manager of a group developing surface tolerant 2 pack epoxy coatings for BP Chemicals in the 80's and have significant field experience of applying them in difficult environments (ie offshore splash zone etc). I know 2 pack epoxies. I know how they need to be applied. 2 pack epoxy is the best coating for a narrow boat.

 

When applied to the manufacturers specs, the coatings should last 10 years. YES. 10 years and maybe more .......as long as they are applied right. Blacking lasts up to 2 years and can look pretty naff after just a few months. The only saving grace of blacking is that the steel is thick and boats last a long time as there is a lot of steel to corrode away.  We bought our boat over 2 years ago and had it blacked after a few months. We've just had it blacked again. Why? It wasnt the cost. This time it was more the convenience of a quick 'in and out'. I think though now having seen how our first blacking survived and now the 2nd one (which was applied by a yard in good weather) is deteriorating...although will be ok for another year or so...... I will go for a two pack in a few years time. It's not urgent to me though. There is lots of steel left. I do not worry at all about my blacking (and I know coatings).

Yes, we will switch to 2 pack but my biggest worry is finding a yard that will do it properly. I spent 10 years watching professional coating companies screwing up many many jobs even with paint inspectors monitoring the work. Temperature/moisture when applying is very difficult in the UK and the source of many problems. Last year there was an enquiry on here by someone who had a soft coating after their 2 packing and I organised some 3rd party testing of the coating in a UK based lab to check state of cure etc. The results clearly showed something had gone wrong in the application. An expensive mistake. It really does make me worry about finding a yard I can be convinced with who really knows what they are doing and don't cut corners which is the main cause of problems.

This seems to be saying that two-pack is best, if you can find a yard that will apply it properly, but that even professional coating companies struggle to get right. That being the case, two-pack seems to be spending more just because you can. Not always the best reason.

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13 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Would you like the view from an expert?

 

For background, I spent 10 years as Technical manager of a group developing surface tolerant 2 pack epoxy coatings for BP Chemicals in the 80's and have significant field experience of applying them in difficult environments (ie offshore splash zone etc). I know 2 pack epoxies. I know how they need to be applied. 2 pack epoxy is the best coating for a narrow boat.

 

When applied to the manufacturers specs, the coatings should last 10 years. YES. 10 years and maybe more .......as long as they are applied right. Blacking lasts up to 2 years and can look pretty naff after just a few months. The only saving grace of blacking is that the steel is thick and boats last a long time as there is a lot of steel to corrode away.  We bought our boat over 2 years ago and had it blacked after a few months. We've just had it blacked again. Why? It wasnt the cost. This time it was more the convenience of a quick 'in and out'. I think though now having seen how our first blacking survived and now the 2nd one (which was applied by a yard in good weather) is deteriorating...although will be ok for another year or so...... I will go for a two pack in a few years time. It's not urgent to me though. There is lots of steel left. I do not worry at all about my blacking (and I know coatings).

Yes, we will switch to 2 pack but my biggest worry is finding a yard that will do it properly. I spent 10 years watching professional coating companies screwing up many many jobs even with paint inspectors monitoring the work. Temperature/moisture when applying is very difficult in the UK and the source of many problems. Last year there was an enquiry on here by someone who had a soft coating after their 2 packing and I organised some 3rd party testing of the coating in a UK based lab to check state of cure etc. The results clearly showed something had gone wrong in the application. An expensive mistake. It really does make me worry about finding a yard I can be convinced with who really knows what they are doing and don't cut corners which is the main cause of problems.

But this is how it should be in an ideal world and boating is not like that. For oil rigs and railway bridges pedantic prep and then painting with thickness gauge checking etc probably is appropriate, but most boatyards will just brush it on. Boats rarely get more than a week in the drydock though many epoxies would like longer than this to fully cure. Epoxy will do a pretty good job even if the prep is not 100% perfect, and getting the full life expectancy is not critical. If it lasts 8 years instead of ten but the job only costs half (or even a quarter) of a top notch job then that's good value. On a boat its going to get some scrapes and need a bit of repair every few years anyway, and this usually involves putting a new coat or two on.

 

Ive done my well deck, back deck, gas bottle locker and side lockers in epoxy. Prep was not perfect, just a wire cup brush, and a bit of rust was left in the deeper pits. It is still doing much much better than any single pack paint. 

 

Get a reasonably good surface, ideally with a bit of texture, degrease and make sure its dry, mix the epoxy well in the correct ratios and don't apply at silly temperatures, and it will be fine. Obviously shot blasting is best but epoxy will stick to most surfaces.

 

................Dave

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Dry dock is the worst place to paint a boat. Inevitably the boat is "tying up" the dock, so there will be an urgency to get it done and out again. Also it is just below the level of the canal, so cold, humid and not much airflow. 

 

Get the boat slipped on a trailer and there's much more opportunity to put it in a better place for painting, and (except for the hardstanding fees, which are much lower/day than drydock) there is no time pressure on the job.

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