Winding after a lock - who has priority to lock ?

[jradley]

Hi,

 

A quick etiquette question regarding priority at a lock..

 

I notice there are places on the network where a winding hole is immediately before/after a lock. An example relevant to me in a few weeks is at Bradford-On-Avon on the K&A. If I were cruising from Bath and wanted to turn at Bradford I would have to pass through the lock and turn immediately after to go back through the lock again. What happens if there is a queue of boats waiting to enter the lock, ie who has priority - me or them ?

 

Cheers,

 

John

[Chewbacka]

You had your place in the queue going down, so once you have passed through and want to go up, join the queue (at the far end, so last).

[NB Lola]

Agree with Chewbacka.  You were not in the queue going the other way until you passed through the lock, therefore you will join the end of the queue unless the boaters going in the opposite direction are happy for you to jump in due to location of winding hole etc etc.

[Phil.]

I don't necessarily agree with the above. If you have control of the Lock, and your only reason to go up is to wind, providing the winding hole is before the front of the queue waiting, it is still your lock. It would however be polite to explain your intentions.

[nicknorman]

Plenty of scope for arguments then!

[Paul C]

The next boat to use the lock is the one who is immediately ready to do so, if there's a queue. Since you aren't (you need time to wind), then its not you but them. You will probably pass the other boats in the opposite direction anyway, I don't know of any places on the network where there is a lock, then a passage wide enough only for one boat, then a winding hole, then an area for queuing.

[jradley]

34 minutes ago, Paul C said:

The next boat to use the lock is the one who is immediately ready to do so, if there's a queue. Since you aren't (you need time to wind), then its not you but them. You will probably pass the other boats in the opposite direction anyway, I don't know of any places on the network where there is a lock, then a passage wide enough only for one boat, then a winding hole, then an area for queuing.

I'm not sure this screen grab from google maps shows it clearly, but it looks to me like after the lock there is a landing stage long enough for 1 boat, maybe 2 very short ones at best. Then there is the cruise boat, which I'm guessing is permanently moored there, then a services point. Any more than one boat wanting the lock is likely to either be pretending to be filling up with water or queued behind the services mooring. The winding hole is opposite the cruise boat, so turning there would put me ahead of anyone queueing further back than the cruise boat. For what I expect to be a very busy stretch of canal there soesn't appear to be a lot of room for queueing in an orderly fashion at the lock.

Edited August 7, 2019 by jradley
add another picture

[Paul C]

It looks like a boat coming out of the lock could pass one which is moored at the lock landing (waiting to go into the lock). So it wouldn't cause issues - the boat comes out, passes the other then winds; once its passed, the queueing boat can go into the lock.

 

I'd say the rule still applies, that the boat coming out the lock to wind, still goes to the back of whatever queue might exist, even if the local layout makes it difficult to do so. For example, Hurleston bottom lock is at a junction and is a big enough area to wind, in theory a boat might want to lock down, then wind, then lock up. It would need to lock down, then wind, then possibly reverse to the back of the queue.

[MtB]

46 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Plenty of scope for arguments then!

 

Oh no there isn't.....

 

 

 

[Jerra]

If I werein the queue I would expect the boat to go t6o the back of the queue, it seems only polite and fair to me.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Jerra

[ditchcrawler]

Just take your windlass and fight over it, thats the traditional way as I understand it

[mayalld]

52 minutes ago, Paul C said:

The next boat to use the lock is the one who is immediately ready to do so, if there's a queue. Since you aren't (you need time to wind), then its not you but them. You will probably pass the other boats in the opposite direction anyway, I don't know of any places on the network where there is a lock, then a passage wide enough only for one boat, then a winding hole, then an area for queuing.

Bosley Locks, between 12 and 11.

 

I agree, you had your passage, and now you are back in the queue.

[Rebotco]

Done this many times, going up, turning, ready to go back down.

Invariably join the back of any queue to go down.

This is a double width lock, taking 2 narrowboats.

When you come out to turn, there is time for 2 boats to go down whilst you are turning, so the queue is already shortened for you.

These days there are usually volleys there too, which does speed things up.

If anyone coming up tried to hold the lock for themselves to go down, they would be (rightly) told exactly where to go - and it wouldn't be back into the lock!

[jradley]

I'll be a first time hirer..... by the time I've bounced off the hire boats in the yard opposite, bounced off the cruise boat on the towpath and got wedged across the canal by the pub I bet most people queueing will be happy to let me go ahead anyway just so they don't have to share the lock or the next stretch of canal with me

 

John

[MtB]

In my experience it takes at least the same time as a lock cycle to wind a boat so very 'dog-in-the-manger' for a boater to try and keep the lock to him/herself whilst winding. 

 

But to answer your question, no-one has 'priority'. Who goes first is a matter of negotiation but someone is being an arse about something like this, I'd rather they went first and got out of my face. 

 

Do expand on your reasons for asking, has they been a row about this?

[Phil.]

2 minutes ago, jradley said:

I'll be a first time hirer..... by the time I've bounced off the hire boats in the yard opposite, bounced off the cruise boat on the towpath and got wedged across the canal by the pub I bet most people queueing will be happy to let me go ahead anyway just so they don't have to share the lock or the next stretch of canal with me

 

John

Not forgetting all the boats you will bounce off as you try reversing to the back of the queue. But don't worry just let them know this is what you were told you had to do by the Canal forum. Alternatively if they insist you wait your turn, again, plonk yourself on the Lock landing and let them pass you. Having said that, your picture does show that the winding hole is beyond where a boat would be waiting so, really they would have the opportunity to descend in the Lock before your winded.

[Ray T]

22 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Just take your windlass and fight over it, that's the traditional way as I understand it

Then meet up in the pub and have a good laugh about it.

[nicknorman]

Anyway, with possession being  9 10ths etc, how would you propose to stop other boats entering the lock whilst you winded. Presented with an empty lock and gates open, I certainly would!

[jradley]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

In my experience it takes at least the same time as a lock cycle to wind a boat so very 'dog-in-the-manger' for a boater to try and keep the lock to him/herself whilst winding. 

 

But to answer your question, no-one has 'priority'. Who goes first is a matter of negotiation but someone is being an arse about something like this, I'd rather they went first and got out of my face. 

 

Do expand on your reasons for asking, has they been a row about this?

No rows, just thinking ahead. As a first time hirer I was looking ahead at possible routes and turning points to work out if there could be any contention or difficulty and I flagged this with myself.

 

I wasn't aware of how long it might take to turn a boat - I'd figured on 20 minutes to lock and maybe 3 minutes to turn.

1 minute ago, Phil. said:

Not forgetting all the boats you will bounce off as you try reversing to the back of the queue. But don't worry just let them know this is what you were told you had to do by the Canal forum. Alternatively if they insist you wait your turn, again, plonk yourself on the Lock landing and let them pass you. Having said that, your picture does show that the winding hole is beyond where a boat would be waiting so, really they would have the opportunity to descend in the Lock before your winded.

Yes, one boat at the landing is obvious and I would let them go ahead - it's if there are others further along behind the cruise boat and services point that it gets less obvious. My guess is they would wait until I pass before pulling out, only to then see me block the canal by turning. I'm then ahead of them and just pop back into the lock with the boat that was at the landing.

 

What could possibly go wrong

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, jradley said:

I'd figured on 20 minutes to lock and maybe 3 minutes to turn.

 

Ah I see, a hypothetical situation. Thinking about stuff like this in advance is a Good Thing.

 

I'd say seven or eight mins to fully turn if you are practiced and fast at it, and your boat is significantly shorter than the winding hole.  When I turn my 68ft boat in the 57ft winding hole near here, it takes me best part of half an hour to get it out of a lock as you describe, turned and back into the lock. Partly because it turns with about 0.5" to spare on the length!!!

 

If there is one thing inexperienced boaters underestimate, it is how LONG it takes to do virtually anything to do with boating...

 

 

[Machpoint005]

1 hour ago, Phil. said:

Not forgetting all the boats you will bounce off as you try reversing to the back of the queue.

 

You don't have to reverse to the back of the queue, just make sure the steerer of the last boat in the queue knows you will be waiting for her. If another boat appears behind that one, it would be polite to go and explain to them what is happening, too.   

[Rob-M]

And if there is no one waiting to lock through whilst you are winding make sure the boat that arrives behind you doesn't start operating the lock without first checking the gates are closed. That is what happened to us at a lock on the T&M, the guy had both bottom paddles open but I had left the top gate open to wind and go back in the lock as when I came out the lock there was no one around.

[Rebotco]

I wasn't aware of how long it might take to turn a boat - I'd figured on 20 minutes to lock and maybe 3 minutes to turn.

 

It will take more like 10+ mins to turn there - and if its windy, double that.

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

In my experience it takes at least the same time as a lock cycle to wind a boat so very 'dog-in-the-manger' for a boater to try and keep the lock to him/herself whilst winding.

Well I think we can wind in the right winding hole in around 45 seconds, so it would need to be a very quick lock cycle!
 

 

[ditchcrawler]

Actually had this happen to me at Wardle lock the other week.