Can anyone spare me half an hour for a chat Lee Navigation?

[Cleggy]

Hello all, I am David AKA Cleggy

 

I would like to look round a narrow boat

 

This is a strange request I realise but I am thinking of buying a live aboard and would like very much to have a look round one that is actually being lived in. also to have a bit of a discussion about life on the water, pros and cons, what to be weary of when buying a boat, that sort of thing. Wouldn’t take up more that half an hour of your time I Promise.

 

So if you live in a canal boat on the Lee navigation somewhere within cycling distance from Edmonton where I am currently based ie. between the City and the M25 or thereabouts and wouldn’t mind giving me the benefit of your knowledge and some insight into space on a 50’-60’ boat or know some one that would please drop me a line.

 

Thank you David Clegg

 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Cleggy said:

a bit of a discussion about life on the water, pros and cons, what to be weary of when buying a boat, that sort of thing. Wouldn’t take up more that half an hour of your time I Promise.

 

Welcome David.

 

Unfortunately those two topics would take a day each to cover even the basics. There are LOADS of threads on here that will give you a flavour of what you ask, have a crack with the search engine top right of every page, its very good now. 

 

Alternatively walk the towpaths and chat with boaters. You'll find the half hour chats come thick and fast so set aside a day for this.... Then another, and another....

 

Well done for deciding to do your research first though. Lots of peeps buy the boat then start asking the questions. 

 

 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Welcome David.

 

Unfortunately those two topics would take a day each to cover even the basics. There are LOADS of threads on here that will give you a flavour of what you ask, have a crack with the search engine top right of every page, its very good now. 

 

Alternatively walk the towpaths and chat with boaters. You'll find the half hour chats come thick and fast so set aside a day for this.... Then another, and another....

 

Well done for deciding to do your research first though. Lots of peeps buy the boat then start asking the questions. 

 

 

Welcome to the forum.
All good advice from MTB. I am not in the area otherwise you would be more than welcome to visit our live aboard boat. I think you will find that 99% of boaters are approachable and will tell it how it is.

Winter is the most testing time, but we love it. All depends on your expectations really.

[LadyG]

I have recently  bought one.  I had a lot of previous boating experience, so understood the ongoing maintenance issues, with associated costs. 

I would say from reading and participating on this forum for two years, that a lot of people do not immediately grasp the fact that a boat is very different from anything else, and if you want to live very cheaply, you should be very wary. It's not cheap unless you are very lucky, and very tolerant of "camping"

If you watch youtube you will find several established channels which cover all the basics, "Sort of Interesting " formerly budget living/camping on Tilley, and now simple living on Able's Ark. and  " Cruising the Cut "  mature guy, comfortable living, formerly marina based, now continuous cruising but uses marinas occasionally

My basic annual costs so far are: insurance £200, mooring £2000, Licence £900.

Mains electricity £20 pcm

Work in progress: I have spent the last two months cleaning, and painting, inside and out. Averaging five hours a day, five days a week!

Paint etc £350 , 

Replacing cassette, mattress, flooring, upholstery, and furniture [I am not camping]  £1800]

Replacing solar in order to become self sufficient £509, includes Victron 300 watt inverter for electronics.

Replacing batteries to become self sufficient £500

Electrician [hard to find one], maybe £500 [ re-design of the current [quirky] system which relies on mains.

Other trades [things I can't do myself] £50

This year I am not continuous cruising,  If continuous cruiser I expect to pay about £1 a mile  [includes servicing]. Wild guesstimate £500 pa, Coal/logs/cooking gas £500 pa.  Rainy day savings plan £500pa.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

All good advice but two points in which I differ.

 

1. £2000 for mooring, I very much doubt that around London, specially if it is a proper residential mooring rather than a leisure mooring and keep your head down. You may have to add another zero in London.

 

2. Solar to become self sufficient. On a narrowboat I very much doubt that in the winter. You won't have enough roof space for the required number of panels and it will cost a lot more than £500. £500 of solar will be find for the mid summer months.

 

 

I would comment that batteries are probably best considered consumables that need replacing every very few years. When new to boating many people ruin their batteries within months until they grasp just how much recharging is needed. The recharging is easy in you have a shoreline hookup but not so easy when cruising.

[blackrose]

All good advice but I'd disagree that 99% of boaters are approachable. There are plenty of unfriendly people living on boats (especially around London) and it's a myth that everyone's welcoming and friendly.

Edited August 4, 2019 by blackrose

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, blackrose said:

There are plenty of unfriendly people living on boats (especially around London)

From my experience its really no worse than anywhere else. The only unfriendly experience I remember was one of the more mature boaters I shared a couple of locks with. He spent the whole time complaining that people don't talk to each other any more and how all his favourite mooring spots were taken. When I countered his argument he just made a face and shook his head dismissively and the conversation quickly died. 

[blackrose]

45 minutes ago, Rumsky said:

From my experience its really no worse than anywhere else. 

 

Ok, it's the same as everywhere else then. There are lots of unfriendly liveaboard boaters everywhere.

 

In my experience some of them are only friendly if you're part of "the club" and they tend to shun anyone anyone who isn't. I've seen lots of examples including a stupid liveaboard woman in Reading who came outside screaming at a couple on the towpath who she thought had looked through her window. They were just walking past and she may have caught them glancing through an uncurtained window as they strolled by, but it wasn't like they had stopped and bent down to peer through.

Edited August 4, 2019 by blackrose

[mrsmelly]

Lots of good advice so far. Just to add the sweeping 50/60 foot size, there is a humungous difference in 50 and 60 foot narrowboats internal dimensions. For instance my 68 colecraft has the same size pointy and back end as a 60 footer so I have a full 8 feet interior cabin length of space, 8 foot cabin length in a small thing such as a narrowboat is a hell of a lot,just sayin like its worth bearing in mind depending on what space you yourself need/want.

[blackrose]

You may as well visit a few brokerages. It's a good way to get to see inside a few boats without inposing on anyone's privacy. You're a legitimate potential buyer so have a look on the net, see if any boats take your fancy and go and look - without getting talked into leaving any deposits. Also have a look on Apollo duck. Plenty of boats for sale there.

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by blackrose

[MtB]

14 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

For instance my 68 colecraft has the same size pointy and back end as a 60 footer so I have a full 8 feet interior cabin length of space, 8 foot cabin length in a small thing such as a narrowboat is a hell of a lot

 

Yes that's enough space to fit in a whole separate engine room instead of having to grovel about in the dark under floors. Fantastic thing to have in a boat. Utter luxury!

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

The warning I gave in a similar topic about the Western K&A may well apply here.

 

Cleggy, there is a pressure group called the National Bargee Travellers Association that appears to exist because they object to being expected to comply with the conditions from CaRT they agreed to when they applied for their license.  This will have no effect on you if you get a home mooring but if you agree to continuously cruise you will be expected top travel a certain distance every 14 days or less and simply going back and forth over the same stretch of waterway will not comply. If you get poor advice, as I fear you may well, from a member of that organisation and then act on it you may ultimately have your license cancelled and your boat confiscated.

 

Just be sure that any advice you are given about moving distances and mooring by random boaters  is triple checked for validity. I would suggest with both CaRT and here

[reg]

3 hours ago, blackrose said:

All good advice but I'd disagree that 99% of boaters are approachable. There are plenty of unfriendly people living on boats (especially around London) and it's a myth that everyone's welcoming and friendly.

I agree but don't let you put that off as the good boaters you meet more than compensate for the others. 

Good luck with your research. 

[Cleggy]

Blimey what a response!

 

I am going to reply to everyone that has given me info so far in one go, so here it is.

 

Mike the Boilerman:

I can well understand that time wise! Its the basics I need. I am a practical person so I’m more than happy to get my hands dirty. I was more interested in space onboard and moorings I’m fairly sure mechanically I can handle a boat ( I am a BSAC Diver so have experience of the water, just more tidal!)

 

catweasel:

I have been up and down the canal path a couple of times and so far I am pleased to say everyone I have met (boat wise) has been approachable and friendly but asking to step on board and have a look around is basically a little cheeky even for me! I appreciate the winter months will be harder but I have a log burner in my (or formerly my) Victorian terrace and would like one onboard although I realise that staying warm indoors is probably the least of the problems.

 

LadyG:

Thank you and an interesting point, not as cheap as it would at first seem (nothing is!) I have a place at London Metropolitan University with campuses in Aldwitch and the Holloway road also children in Enfield I was thinking I could move up and down the Lee term time, and take some cruises during breaks, the Lee would be my priority as I wish to remain close to the children (wife kept them after the divorce along with the house!) But I am happy to keep on the move, I have a bike and am happy to cover distance on it.

 

Tony Brooks:

Hmmm, power that is an issue! If I’m on the move batteries will presumably be charged via an alternator from the engine. Solar is something I would wish to include in my inventory but as you state it’s not a reliable source of energy in the UK. You state “The recharging is easy in you have a shoreline hookup but not so easy when cruising” why? Surely a diesel motor should charge batteries easily enough? No? You state “When new to boating many people ruin their batteries within months until they grasp just how much recharging is needed” how so?

 

Blackrose:

There are always those that don’t want to be approached. Discretion is different in everybody's nature and everyone has to be approached differently. And some, just as you say, not intruded upon.

 

Rumsky:

Ah, what can you do! The world was always better for older grumpier people, the beer tasted better the cloth was better woven etc. etc. I accept and acknowledge not everyone I meet will be a happy smiley person. Happens everywhere else so I see no difference on the water if not worse.

 

mrsmelly

Your points on the internal size of a boat with regard its interior size are WELL noted thank you, there is only me but I do need some space.

 

Blackrose:

Yes that is a legitimate point I am a valid and legitimate buyer and approaching a brokerage is something I will do but before I did that, I just wanted a more general picture. Salesmen are salesmen the world over and if I don’t have some idea of what I am looking for I will end up with god knows what! My father lives up north and it was my intention to visit “The Calder and Hebble” during university holidays this states max length 57’ but the interior space is important to me. I need a bed, A kitchen and and a shower and dunny (that is another topic alone) the rest can be empty apart from my desk and a wood burner as far as I’m concerned.

 

Tony Brooks:

“A certain distance”? Vague at best can you clarify? I will look at both “CaRT and here” thank you. Also please I would like to hear more on this re: acceptable distances etc.

 

reg:

Thank you, positivity! That what I need.

 

And let it be noted I am now aware, half an hour is not enough! if you can make tea I will bring home made scones, jam and clotted cream.

 

Many thanks all for your time and input D.C.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Cleggy said:

Hmmm, power that is an issue! If I’m on the move batteries will presumably be charged via an alternator from the engine. Solar is something I would wish to include in my inventory but as you state it’s not a reliable source of energy in the UK. You state “The recharging is easy in you have a shoreline hookup but not so easy when cruising” why? Surely a diesel motor should charge batteries easily enough? No? You state “When new to boating many people ruin their batteries within months until they grasp just how much recharging is needed” how so?

It depends on many variables, but, as a rough guideline you would need to charge you batteries for 4 hours per day (every day) and maybe 6-8 hours per day at weekends.

 

Now - the reality depends on how frugal your electricity usage is.

 

If you only have lights and a phone charger, your demand will be small.

If you decide to have a fridge, TV, lights, computer, and phone charger then you will be into the 4+ hours per day and 8 at weekends)

If you intend to have the above + microwave + washing machine then you could very easily be up to 6+ hours per day and 8+ at weekends.

 

If you do not re-charge your battery within a very short time of taking power from it, it starts to sulphate (filling up with lead-sludge) this reduces the capacity of the battery (not the voltage, but the Ah capacity).

Your battery may start with 110Ah capacity but can very easily be reduced to 50Ah within a few weeks, and even down to 25Ah within a few more weeks.

 

Forget water, toilets or keeping warm - maintaining your electricity is the hardest thing for non-experienced boaters to understand. You no longer have an unlimited supply at the flick of a switch, YOU are now the electricity generating company. the distribution company as well as the consumer.

There is no one else to blame when the lights go out.

[Tony Brooks]

Cleggiy your two points addressed to me.

 

Re a certain distance. I am afraid not because as far as I can tell CaRT do not actually set a distance but have made some suggestions. Hence my saying check with CaRT. They do say registering as continuously cruising is not likely to be compatible with holding a job or the need for schooling.  This is why propaganda from the NBTA may well be in contravention of CaRT requirements. As I said if you have a permanent mooring there will be no problems. If you range over the places where there is a reasonable rail or underground commute into London then again there is unlikely to be a problem so that covers the London canals, the Rivers Lea and Stort plus the GU canal.

 

Re Charging. Your question betrays the fact that you, just like hundreds of people before and after you have little idea about battery charging. The way batteries work mean that take an inordinately long time to fully charge and CaRT limit your engine run times when moored up to between 8am and 8pm. Over 3 to four hours the alternator output will average out at about half its rated output and from then on its average output will drop to eventually 10 amps or less and even then the batteries may not be fully charged. The longer you leave lead acid batteries discharged, even partially the more the chemical conversion that takes place during discharge becomes irreversible by charging. This is known as sulphation so over time your batteries slowly lose capacity. This loss of capacity causes you to discharge them ever deeper overnight so you use up their cyclic life and eventually cause a cell to short circuit. Both excess sulphation and short circuits mean new batteries. The best you can hope for from the engine alternator is an 80% charge daily and then a determined long charge  to as close to 100% once a week or so. Even getting to 80% fully charged if you are at work and commuting may be difficult. It is not unknown for  people new to live aboard boating to ruin batteries within a week or two just by failure to charge enough.

 

There is a Battery Charging Primer written by Wotever pinned at towards the top of one of the sub forums (probably Maintenance). You would do very well to study this and save yourself a lot of problems in the future.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Tony Brooks

[Cleggy]

Hmmm, Tony, Lets say I installed LED lighting, I would of course need a computer as I will be studying (I have never had to worry about batteries for laptops but will now have to consider it) I am not a TV person so we can knock that out of the equation but I will need a fridge, Could I not have a silent petrol generator to either fulfil my power needs or charge batteries outside of the 08:00 - 20:00 hours or is this just uneconomical?

 

DC.

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Cleggy said:

Could I not have a silent petrol generator to either fulfil my power needs or charge batteries outside of the 08:00 - 20:00 hours or is this just uneconomical?

You have just hit on one of Tony's pet subjects.

 

Over to you @Tony Brooks :

 

How not to do it :

 

 

 

You could fit a 'silent' water cooled diesel generator but the cost is prohibitive for many folks.

It will cost around £10,000 'all-in'.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[Graham Davis]

4 minutes ago, Cleggy said:

Hmmm, Tony, Lets say I installed LED lighting, I would of course need a computer as I will be studying (I have never had to worry about batteries for laptops but will now have to consider it) I am not a TV person so we can knock that out of the equation but I will need a fridge, Could I not have a silent petrol generator to either fulfil my power needs or charge batteries outside of the 08:00 - 20:00 hours or is this just uneconomical?

 

DC.

Both impractical and uneconomic!
The rules about the hours of running engines, as far as I can ascertain, apply to ALL engines, propulsion and generators. In addition there is no such thing as a silent petrol generator unless it is completely and expensively cocooned. And then you can add in the added complications of storing petrol within the boat Safety Regulations and the distinct danger of carbon monoxide poisoning.

 

(And please stick to using the Forums standard format for typeface and sizing; your earlier posts were almost impossible to read on a tablet!)

[Paul C]

16 minutes ago, Cleggy said:

 Could I not have a silent petrol generator to either fulfil my power needs or charge batteries outside of the 08:00 - 20:00 hours or is this just uneconomical?

 

DC.

 

Where can you buy a silent petrol generator? I am unaware of any which are anything approaching silent, I think the "silent" used in marketing claims is relative to a frame generator typically found on a building site. Unless someone is now selling something exotic like a fuel cell (I can't imagine the price though).

 

[MtB]

48 minutes ago, Cleggy said:

Could I not have a silent petrol generator to either fulfil my power needs or charge batteries outside of the 08:00 - 20:00 hours or is this just uneconomical?

 

If only there was such a thing, the sellers would make a fortune. 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

If only there was such a thing, the sellers would make a fortune. 

 

 

Mike I thought you had one or as near as dam it - your Whispergen boiler come generator. Doubt the OP would afford one though.

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, Cleggy said:

Hmmm, Tony, Lets say I installed LED lighting, I would of course need a computer as I will be studying (I have never had to worry about batteries for laptops but will now have to consider it) I am not a TV person so we can knock that out of the equation but I will need a fridge, Could I not have a silent petrol generator to either fulfil my power needs or charge batteries outside of the 08:00 - 20:00 hours or is this just uneconomical?

 

DC.

First of all as soon as you legally introduce petrol on board things get a whole lot more complicated boat safety wise. Then there is a real danger from both CO and petrol fume explosions. Petrol is not readily available canal/riverside so will require bringing to the boat in cans for much of the system.

 

The fridge will demand around 30 to 50 Amp hours per day and to replace that you will need to put back around 70 to 80 Amp hours of charge, maybe more. A 70 amp alternator may do up to 80% of that within about 3 hours but then you need to look at lap top charging (hopefully via a 12V car power supply), your lights (I know LEDs are frugal with electricity), your water pump, shower pump, and if you do not have a cassette or dump through toilet the electricity to power the toilet. It all soon adds up once you start adding phone chargers and such like. Not knowing what you do but lets assume a 9am start at work and  a 5pm finish. Add up to an hour's commute depending upon where you are at any one time so you can't charge before you go to work and only have two hours after work. In my view simply not long enough and almost certainly to be detrimental to battery life.

 

Have you read the battery charging piece I pointed you to yet?
 

Sufficient solar will serve you between probably May to end of September but then the problems will start and get worse until the next summer by which time you stand a good chance of needing new batteries so factor the cost into your calculations. You may need them by the Christmas.

 

It is all doable but not on a shoe string. As Alan says a "silent" cocooned diesel generator will do the job but it will be expensive.

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Mike I thought you had one or as near as dam it - your Whispergen boiler come generator. Doubt the OP would afford one though.

 

I have one and yes it performs very well, but they are no longer available since the factory was destroyed by an earthquake, so affordability is academic. 

 

Besides it runs on diesel, and the OP wants a silent petrol genny! 

 

 

[blackrose]

7 hours ago, Cleggy said:

Hmmm, Tony, Lets say I installed LED lighting, I would of course need a computer as I will be studying (I have never had to worry about batteries for laptops but will now have to consider it) I am not a TV person so we can knock that out of the equation but I will need a fridge, Could I not have a silent petrol generator to either fulfil my power needs or charge batteries outside of the 08:00 - 20:00 hours or is this just uneconomical?

 

DC.

 

It's good that you're considering all these things and you're thinking along the right lives, but every alternative you raise has been raised a thousand times before on this forum by others who just like yourself, don't understand the complexities and the plethora of other issues that they themselves introduce.

 

It's not that we are being negative, it can certainly be done, but it needs plenty of research to get it right. Have a look through the archives and spend some time reading threads on batteries and generators, solar panels etc, etc. You won't get all your answers from this thread.