Grey water discharge

[Wanderer Vagabond]

1 hour ago, Chewbacka said:

I hope you washed your arms after going down the weed hatch and sticking your arm into the soup.

Not just phosphates that promote weed growth. 

Oddly enough the water wasn't like soup, it was as clear as a bell where the weed was. I think washing your hands/arms is a bit of a given if sticking them into the canal, you've never that far from a rat. I've actually bought a couple of pairs of waterproof gloves (elbow length) precisely for that reason, but then I've had a relative die from Leptospirosis (Weil's disease) and that can concentrate the mind a bit.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Wanderer Vagabond

[Alan de Enfield]

28 minutes ago, Jerra said:

In general Nitrogen is used by plants for the green parts, Potassium for flowers and fruit (Have you used Compure K on your tomatoes?) and Phosphates for the root system.  More complex than that obviously but that is roughly  the split.

I use something like 20:10:10 NPK on our fields to stimulate the grass growth.

 

The N (Nitrogen) 'forces' the growth of the blades of grass which is what we need for Hay.

 

Fresh urine is high in nitrogen, moderate in phosphorus and low in potassium and can act as an excellent high-nitrogen liquid fertilizer or as a compost accelerator, there are discussions ongoing looking at processing urine on a commercial level to produce Agricultural fertiliser.

 

You can always see the non-moving boats by the growth of weed around the boat.

 

A family of four can produce the equivalent of a 50kg bag of NPK fertilizer from urine alone every year. This urine has a 10:1:4 ratio of nutrients.

Some of the yearly values of the urine nutrients are:

3.5kg of nitrogen.

0.5kg phosphorus.

1.0kg potassium.

0.5kg sulfur.

40g magnesium.

100g calcium.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[Jerra]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I use something like 20:10:10 NPK on our fields to stimulate the grass growth.

 

The N (Nitrogen) 'forces' the growth of the blades of grass which is what we need for Hay.

 

Fresh urine is high in nitrogen, moderate in phosphorus and low in potassium and can act as an excellent high-nitrogen liquid fertilizer or as a compost accelerator, there are discussions ongoing looking at processing urine on a commercial level to produce Agricultural fertiliser.

 

You can always see the non-moving boats by the growth of weed around the boat.

 

A family of four can produce the equivalent of a 50kg bag of NPK fertilizer from urine alone every year. This urine has a 10:1:4 ratio of nutrients.

Some of the yearly values of the urine nutrients are:

3.5kg of nitrogen.

0.5kg phosphorus.

1.0kg potassium.

0.5kg sulfur.

40g magnesium.

100g calcium.

Are you suggesting the weed growth is caused by grey water or urine?

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Are you suggesting the weed growth is caused by grey water or urine?

I'm suggesting both have an effect - but where boats never move and the 'overnight bottle' is tipped overboard that urine will have a greater effect on weed growth than grey water.

 

Nitrogen stimulates green growth far 'better' that either P or K (found in smallish quantities in urine, but greater quantities in washing up liquid).

 

The volume of urine poured into the cut is potentially far, far, higher than that of washing up liquid.

 

The OP stated that the duckweed grows on phosphorous rich water - there is an element of truth in that but it is not the whole story.

 

Duckweeds can concentrate P up to about 1.5% of their dry weight and as such are able to grow on high P waters provided the N concentrations are maintained at high levels.

 

Fertiliser 'run-off' from farmer's fields is another source of 'lots' of Nitrogen.

One of the dykes running between our fields is at the bottom of a slight slope - the weed build up there is tremendous and we have to get the digger in every couple of years and scrape it all out.

 

Basically - NO nitrogen and you have very little weed.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[tree monkey]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'm suggesting both have an effect - but where boats never move and the 'overnight bottle' is tipped overboard that urine will have a greater effect on weed growth than grey water.

 

Nitrogen stimulates green growth far 'better' that either P or K (found in smallish quantities in urine, but greater quantities in washing up liquid).

 

The volume of urine poured into the cut is potentially far, far, higher than that of washing up liquid.

 

The OP stated that the duckweed grows on phosphorous rich water - there is an element of truth in that but it is not the whole story.

 

Duckweeds can concentrate P up to about 1.5% of their dry weight and as such are able to grow on high P waters provided the N concentrations are maintained at high levels.

 

Fertiliser 'run-off' from farmer's fields is another source of 'lots' of Nitrogen.

One of the dykes running between our fields is at the bottom of a slight slope - the weed build up there is tremendous and we have to get the digger in every couple of years and scrape it all out.

 

Basically - NO nitrogen and you have very little weed.

Strictly speaking no N no growth at all.

Whatever is least available will limit growth, up to a point where an abundance can cause exosmosis, in effect the soil having a excess of 1 or more nutrients 

[jetzi]

I'm not denying that grey water and other "organic fertilisers" promote weed growth, but I think you're all hunting the boogeyman.

 

I witnessed an incredible bloom of duckweed on the Regent's Canal in central London between two recent visits (without my boat - was doing some sightseeing with visiting family from Australia). Four weeks ago, no duckweed whatsoever. Two weeks ago, it looked as if you could walk across it.

 

Am I to believe that this was caused by a sudden and unusual influx of urine?

Or just the hot weather?

 

Plants primarily need carbon dioxide, water and sunlight to grow. All else are micro nutrients, needed in relatively tiny quantities, such as those found in fertilisers. Your argument that grey and yellow water is causing the plant growth is akin to saying it is all the Vitamin B that is making you fat - not the calories - in the six beers you drink every night.

[Paul C]

Ivan/Alice, you've got your macronutrients and micronutrients muddled up - the macronutrients for plants are N P K. Sometimes C H O is also included in this list (but its kinda an assumption that plants grow in air and need (sun)light). There's a bunch of micronutrients too. Often the various nutrients will be present in excess (for example....water, for aquatic plants) and sometimes too much will effectively poison the plant in question. For example, grass likes plenty of N, other plants don't do well at high levels, so if you want your pastures to grow well you bang on as much N as you can*.

 

The process where a water body receives excess nutrients to the point that plant growth blooms to the detriment of other living things (eg fish) is called eutrophication. 

 

 

* various laws restrict the amount of muck you can apply to a field, especially in winter.

[tree monkey]

19 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I'm not denying that grey water and other "organic fertilisers" promote weed growth, but I think you're all hunting the boogeyman.

 

I witnessed an incredible bloom of duckweed on the Regent's Canal in central London between two recent visits (without my boat - was doing some sightseeing with visiting family from Australia). Four weeks ago, no duckweed whatsoever. Two weeks ago, it looked as if you could walk across it.

 

Am I to believe that this was caused by a sudden and unusual influx of urine?

Or just the hot weather?

 

Plants primarily need carbon dioxide, water and sunlight to grow. All else are micro nutrients, needed in relatively tiny quantities, such as those found in fertilisers. Your argument that grey and yellow water is causing the plant growth is akin to saying it is all the Vitamin B that is making you fat - not the calories - in the six beers you drink every night.

Which is needed for photosynthesis, none of which will happen without the required  nutrients.

Remove any of the required nutrients or co2,  water or sunlight and growth will either not happen at all or will exhibit limited or poor growth 

[jetzi]

17 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Ivan/Alice, you've got your macronutrients and micronutrients muddled up - the macronutrients for plants are N P K. Sometimes C H O is also included in this list (but its kinda an assumption that plants grow in air and need (sun)light). There's a bunch of micronutrients too. Often the various nutrients will be present in excess (for example....water, for aquatic plants) and sometimes too much will effectively poison the plant in question. For example, grass likes plenty of N, other plants don't do well at high levels, so if you want your pastures to grow well you bang on as much N as you can*.

 

The process where a water body receives excess nutrients to the point that plant growth blooms to the detriment of other living things (eg fish) is called eutrophication. 

 

 

* various laws restrict the amount of muck you can apply to a field, especially in winter.

You are right that they are called "macro" nutrients in the context of plants because they are needed in much higher quantities than say magnesium and calcium. But they are still needed in relatively tiny quantities compared to carbon, hydrogen and oxygen.

In relative terms, how much C H and O are used by a plant, compared to how much N P K are used?

I'm really not saying that fertilising plants does not encourage growth, but I'm still very skeptical that we would see it on the day-to-day scale we're talking about (no duckweed one week, duckweed the next).

 

EDIT:

Actually I take it back. I think I agree with the overall thoughts. Higher concentrations of N P K in the water (from grey water, agricultural run off, or black water "accidents") would lead to a situation where, combined with hot weather and other triggers, weed growth could bloom.

 

What should be done?

Edited August 3, 2019 by ivan&alice

[Paul C]

Normally it is a non-issue - intelligent farmers fertilise their fields, not the local watercourses (which would be wasteful of the nutrients....). Not saying no nutrients end up in the water, but there's already controls on it (eg muck spreading not allowed in times of high surface water runoff). Eutrophication due to hot weather is a natural occurrence.

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Actually I take it back. I think I agree with the overall thoughts. Higher concentrations of N P K in the water (from grey water, agricultural run off, or black water "accidents") would lead to a situation where, combined with hot weather and other triggers, weed growth could bloom.

 

What should be done?

I think the ''genie is out of the bottle'

I really do not see that grey-water is a major contributor as without additional Nitrogen there will be little (or no growth).

Nitrogen alone (with air and water) and microspcopic amounts of other nutrients (without Grey water) will cause growth (as per my field dyke)

The grey water will add additional nutrients (P & K) and produce more vigorous growth,

 

What should be done ?

 

Enforce 'no peeing or other black water' in the waterways - how is another matter.

Ban Farmers from using any N based fertilisers and pay the increased costs due to reduced yields (like these 'organic things' cost more)

[Chewbacka]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think the ''genie is out of the bottle'

I really do not see that grey-water is a major contributor as without additional Nitrogen there will be little (or no growth).

Nitrogen alone (with air and water) and microspcopic amounts of other nutrients (without Grey water) will cause growth (as per my field dyke)

The grey water will add additional nutrients (P & K) and produce more vigorous growth,

 

What should be done ?

 

Enforce 'no peeing or other black water' in the waterways - how is another matter.

Ban Farmers from using any N based fertilisers and pay the increased costs due to reduced yields (like these 'organic things' cost more)

Bit like the Archers today......

[tree monkey]

4 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

Bit like the Archers today......

Today? There's no Archers today, it's Saturday and Saturday is a none Archers day

[Dr Bob]

8 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Today? There's no Archers today, it's Saturday and Saturday is a none Archers day

There were at Warwick castle.?

[tree monkey]

28 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

There were at Warwick castle.?

That's nice, they deserve a day away from the farm

[Tumshie]

1 hour ago, tree monkey said:

Today? There's no Archers today, it's Saturday and Saturday is a none Archers day

? Podcast....

 

 

[tree monkey]

26 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

? Podcast....

 

 

Sometimes modern technology goes too far, Archers shouldn't be messed with 

[Mike Todd]

23 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

I've seen them doing it for large scale spillages on the L&L - most recently in March this year.  4 blokes from the EA living in tents for three days at the top of Wigan Flight. 

 

I understand they were in Leigh last month, but I wasn't so didn't see it. 

They were (strictly Plank Lane), we were just leaving our boat in the marina. Overnight there had been something that killed a large number of small fish and left a lot more gasping. Both CaRT and EA  staff were there adding oxygenating material to the water. I gather it is a known problem likely to do with old mining, but as yet not eliminated and occurs about once a year, but tgat may just be local rumour.

[mrsmelly]

23 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think the ''genie is out of the bottle'

I really do not see that grey-water is a major contributor as without additional Nitrogen there will be little (or no growth).

Nitrogen alone (with air and water) and microspcopic amounts of other nutrients (without Grey water) will cause growth (as per my field dyke)

The grey water will add additional nutrients (P & K) and produce more vigorous growth,

 

What should be done ?

 

Enforce 'no peeing or other black water' in the waterways - how is another matter.

Ban Farmers from using any N based fertilisers and pay the increased costs due to reduced yields (like these 'organic things' cost more)

Start by asking what so called composting bog users actualy do with their pee 

[ditchcrawler]

On 03/08/2019 at 09:33, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Fresh urine is high in nitrogen, moderate in phosphorus and low in potassium and can act as an excellent high-nitrogen liquid fertilizer or as a compost accelerator, there are discussions ongoing looking at processing urine on a commercial level to produce Agricultural fertiliser.

 

 

Yes, always pee on the compost heap when you pass

7 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Start by asking what so called composting bog users actualy do with their pee 

One actually put in their "BLOG" (not bog) that you can pour it into the canal.

[Chewbacka]

8 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Start by asking what so called composting bog users actualy do with their pee 

We all know what they do?

[TheBiscuits]

9 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Start by asking what so called composting bog users actualy do with their pee 

Us? Tip it in the elsan points, or down a loo - it's only wee, so it's nothing like emptying a cassette into a normal loo..  If really stuck we would consider tipping it in the base of the hedgerow when it was raining.

 

I have seen far more cassette users pour a bucket of pee in the canal than I have seen separators/composters do, if only because more of us understand why you must not tip it in the cut.  Urine mixed at 1:8 with water is an excellent plant food - and you can tell who wees in the hedges next to their online mooring by looking at nettle growth!

[Wanderer Vagabond]

2 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Us? Tip it in the elsan points, or down a loo - it's only wee, so it's nothing like emptying a cassette into a normal loo..  If really stuck we would consider tipping it in the base of the hedgerow when it was raining.

 

I have seen far more cassette users pour a bucket of pee in the canal than I have seen separators/composters do, if only because more of us understand why you must not tip it in the cut.  Urine mixed at 1:8 with water is an excellent plant food - and you can tell who wees in the hedges next to their online mooring by looking at nettle growth!

I have to say I find it odd what people will choose to throw in the canal, and then become outraged when others throw rubbish (shopping trollies,safes,cycles) in. The canal isn't a waste disposal centre and yet I've seen fire ash being dumped in (is that going to decompose? or just sit on the bottom making the bottom closer to the top?). Why would anyone pour a bucket of urine into the canal? as you point out there is invariably a useful hedge nearby that will benefit from it rather than just polluting the water. As I approached a boat the other day they threw out a whole load of oranges and what looked like failed pancakes into the cut. The pancakes left an oil slick and the oranges are likely to take up to 6 months to decompose, what is wrong with putting it in a bin?

 

I'm not defending throwing shopping trollies or other metalwork into the canal, but at least it's not polluting the water.

[Theo]

On 01/08/2019 at 20:24, StephenA said:

Could duckweed be used as biomass for power production? I wonder if you could scale it up to an industrial level and use it as part of a semi closed cycle?

I suggested this in a post when we encountered the duckweed on our way to Keadby.

 

The idea is to have a duckweed fuelled steam narrow boat .  The first lot of duckweed would need to be died by some means but thereafter the drying would be provided by waste heat from the steam condensers.  I did not add that the whole process can be enhanced by chucking the ash out of the back.  This provides fertiliser to  enhance the growth of more duckweed so that more of such boats can use the technology.  A further benefit of the ash will be that it will float about in the water column busily blocking up any leaks that it finds.

[Victor Vectis]

On 01/08/2019 at 13:01, BruceinSanity said:

I take that as a compliment, though I don't deserve it. IIRC, it was originally a Frank Muir story at the end of an episode of My Word.

I thought it was Neil Innes, from Innes Own World.

 

Does the rounds on Radio 4Extra from time to time.