Grey water discharge

[Jerra]

23 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

There arnt any, they dont work. We have tried many over the years.

This is typical of mrsmelly's I am always right attitude be it toilet type, Brexit and now washing up liquid.

 

I have used then for years (decades actually) they do work many of my friends use them and they work.  Hundreds have used them at our holiday let not one has complained or left any sign they used their own.   I am amazed, talking of the let how many don't use the diah washer and prefer hand washing.

[Onionman]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Where I moor, there are up to twenty boats, all with at least one person on board, putting washing up and personal hygiene water in the canal. We are on a 100m long pound by about 100m wide, with a water depth of around 2m, which is replaced by water let through a paddle on the lock that is left partially open. No bywashes here. That is around 20,000 litres of water to dilute our waste. 1ppm concentration of detergent in this would be 20 litres of pure detergent, which is a lot!

 

Your pound contains 20 million litres of water.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 hour ago, Jerra said:

I can only speak for the one we use which rejoices in the name "Bio concentrated washing up liquid".  They no longer list what it is made of by name at one time they told you the major constituent was coconut oil.  Now it says above 30% anionic surfacant below 5% nonionic surfacant, Sodium chloride and Citric acid.   Digging a little deeper on the internet it says it contains Coconut Oil, Aqua (why on earth don't they say water!) vegetable glycerine and the previously mentioned salt and citric acid.

 

Ecover says:  Aqua, Sodium lauryl sulfate, Lauryl glucoside, Glycereth -6 Cocoate, Coco-glucoside, Lactic acid, Sodium chloride, Sodium octyl sulphate, Alcohol denat., Parfum, Limonene, Citric acid, Sodium citrate

 

Whether <5% Citric Acid in the case of Bio counts as "based on"  I don't know.  Contains certainly but to me it seems based on "Aqua".

So, NaCl  salt and citric acid to get at the grease, the surfactants to keep them in suspension, the coconut oil and glycerine to make it feel nicer on the skin while it pulls all your skin oil out. Not sure how this is better for aquatic organisms than conventional detergents. Don't know enough chemistry and biology to get past the manufacturers greenwash.

Jen

25 minutes ago, Onionman said:

 

Your pound contains 20 million litres of water.

Yes it does. Well spotted. I made an edit changing cubic metres to litres and forgot to add the three orders of magnitude. 1ppm is still 20l though. Just within the edit window, so I've corrected the original post.

Jen

Edited July 31, 2019 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Horace42]

50 minutes ago, Jerra said:

My friend who until he retired worked for the EA had the job of regularly sampling water from half the county and following up prosecutions invariably found the causes to be large scale incidents.  He was however of the opinion that if everyone used bio/eco type washing up liquids it would be good for the rivers.

Good point. I like the idea of bio friendly washing up liquid (soap and shampoo as well) - for those who want to avoid making grey water in the first place - and when coupled to more hostile things like bleach, etc  - if such a bio friendly thing is available - then helped with 'official guidance.

Somewhat along the lines of rules now to prevent discharging bilge water contaminated with oil and diesel into the canal.

It would certainly be a start in the right direction

 

 

[Jerra]

12 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

So, NaCl  salt and citric acid to get at the grease, the surfactants to keep them in suspension, the coconut oil and glycerine to make it feel nicer on the skin while it pulls all your skin oil out. Not sure how this is better for aquatic organisms than conventional detergents. Don't know enough chemistry and biology to get past the manufacturers greenwash.

Jen

 

I am only going on what a man with a good chemistry degree and doing it for his profession told me.  I don't have the chemisty either. 

[mrsmelly]

27 minutes ago, Jerra said:

This is typical of mrsmelly's I am always right attitude be it toilet type, Brexit and now washing up liquid.

 

I have used then for years (decades actually) they do work many of my friends use them and they work.  Hundreds have used them at our holiday let not one has complained or left any sign they used their own.   I am amazed, talking of the let how many don't use the diah washer and prefer hand washing.

Blimey, something going wrong for you in the government or something ?. Dish washers dont work either. Well the toy ones in houses dont, commercial ones do work.

Edited July 31, 2019 by mrsmelly

[Jerra]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

Blimey, something going wrong for you in the government or something ?. Dish washers dont work either. Well the toy ones in houses dont, commercial ones do work.

ROFLMA I predicted such a reply.   How strange I have seen dirty dishes go in and clean ones come out,   That's what I call not working.

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Jerra said:

ROFLMA I predicted such a reply.   How strange I have seen dirty dishes go in and clean ones come out,   That's what I call not working.

What makes me giggle is the people who actualy think they use less water than properly wshing up in a sink. They then ALL admit that before they put them in the silly slow contraption they actualy rinse everything off first under a tap ?

[Onionman]

2 hours ago, Jerra said:

Quote:

 

Most fish will die when detergent concentrations approach 15 parts per million. Detergent concentrations as low as 5 ppm will kill fish eggs. Surfactant detergents are implicated in decreasing the breeding ability of aquatic organisms. 

Read more: https://www.lenntech.com/aquatic/detergents.htm#ixzz5vF7p28R2

 

The K&A is just over 4 narrowboats wide (room for a narrowboat and a widebeam to pass a moored narrowboat with some navigation space). So the space by a moored boat is over 3 narrowboats, so over 6m. If it's a metre deep and the moored boat is 14m (45 ft or so) long, then there's 84,000 litres of water alongside. If the water never moved, to get to 1ppm detergent, you'd need to put in about six tablespoons of Fairy liquid. In fact, given that Fairy is 2/3 water, you'd need to put in 18 tablespoons; just under half a pint. To get to 5ppm, you're looking at dumping a couple of bottles of Fairy liquid in your bit of canal. That's just to pollute the water immediately next to your boat, ignoring the miles with no moored boats.

 

There's a decent flow down the K&A as well. In the evenings it looks like a slow-flowing river.

Given the above, grey water seems unlikely to be the problem.

[Jerra]

2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

What makes me giggle is the people who actualy think they use less water than properly wshing up in a sink. They then ALL admit that before they put them in the silly slow contraption they actualy rinse everything off first under a tap ?

All if them don't.  I know a good number who don't.  However that doesn't prove they don't work.  This week I watched a batch of plastic boxes (Ex sandwich filling boxes) being washed for reuse for another purpose.  The washer (a standard domestic under counter model) managed to remove paper labels which were almost impossible to remove by hand even after they had been soaked in water.  The plastic according to you couldn't possibly be clean as washers don't work.

[dor]

11 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

What makes me giggle is the people who actualy think they use less water than properly wshing up in a sink. They then ALL admit that before they put them in the silly slow contraption they actualy rinse everything off first under a tap ?

ALL?  I don't think so.

I've had domestic dishwashers for over 30 years.  Back at the start the washers weren't as efficient, and neither was the detergent.  However both are much improved and we certainly don't rinse first.  Anything that will come off in a rinse will definitely come off in the dishwasher - and run on an eco cycle too, i.e. less water and less heat.

[Neil2]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Did they tell you this directly or thru an interpreter ?

Via Twitter, obviously, but there was a lot of fowl language.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

Via Twitter, obviously, but there was a lot of fowl language.

C'mon - you are just egging me on.

[Mike Adams]

4 hours ago, NicolasL said:

Academic water quality research has shown that London canals are highly polluted and boat discharges have vastly increased in the past few years.  It seems that pollution from solid bow-to-stern temporary mooring is killing the canal and fish. 

I wouldn't give this academic research houseroom. Complete rubbish. No doubt the author will get a first class degree for his work. Duckweed events occur on most canals including the Basingstoke Canal which is a SSSI with almost no boats polluting the waterway. The best way to kill fish is increase the temperature of the water as it depletes the oxygen levels and if some of them die off if probably indicates an over-population. Duckweed on the suface reduces the ability of the water surface to absorb oxygen so combine the two and bingo dead fish. They will be eventually reabsorbed into the eco system as will we all.

No doubt this with give someone an excuse to have all boats fitted with grey water tanks.

[Jerra]

2 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

Duckweed events occur on most canals including the Basingstoke Canal which is a SSSI with almost no boats polluting the waterway.

Duckweed "blooms" are generally caused by high notrogen and phosphates in the water.  It doesn't matter where they come from be it drainage from fertilised agricultural land, Catlle droppings or grey water.   So yes they can occur anywhere what is fairly certain there is additional nitrogen and phosphate getting in from somewhere.

[Graham Davis]

57 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

What makes me giggle is the people who actualy think they use less water than properly wshing up in a sink. They then ALL admit that before they put them in the silly slow contraption they actualy rinse everything off first under a tap ?

Funny how my water meter shows the dish washer uses less water than the several bowls of water in the sink needed to wash the same number of dishes.
And as usual you make an incorrect generalisation about other people's behaviour; we don't rinse first.

[MoominPapa]

2 hours ago, Jerra said:

Aqua (why on earth don't they say water!)

My understanding is that using latin is allowed in EU labelling rules to produce a list of ingredients valid in any language. The components which have chemical names are from a controlled set, and language-neutral or in English, which is the universal language of science. Other components have to be in the language of the country where the product is sold, (so, water in the UK and Ireland, eau if France, etc, etc) or latin. By using latin, the same product can be sold in any EU country.

 

MP.

 

[frangar]

So what to fit first?.....grey water tank

or propulsion battery bank.....the green lobby will be having a field day. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

2 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

My understanding is that using latin is allowed in EU labelling rules to produce a list of ingredients valid in any language. The components which have chemical names are from a controlled set, and language-neutral or in English, which is the universal language of science. Other components have to be in the language of the country where the product is sold, (so, water in the UK and Ireland, eau if France, etc, etc) or latin. By using latin, the same product can be sold in any EU country.

 

MP.

 

Every day is a school day. The aqua question has bugged me. I'd always thought it was just pretentious marketing people trying to mask how much water was in there.

[Jerra]

6 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

My understanding is that using latin is allowed in EU labelling rules to produce a list of ingredients valid in any language. The components which have chemical names are from a controlled set, and language-neutral or in English, which is the universal language of science. Other components have to be in the language of the country where the product is sold, (so, water in the UK and Ireland, eau if France, etc, etc) or latin. By using latin, the same product can be sold in any EU country.

 

MP.

 

So which country still speaks Latin?  I can understand the concept but I have seen aqua used in among English ingredients.  Its a bit like saying Rutabaga rather than Swede in the ingredients.

 

Also if it is for the purpose of selling in other countries things like how much to use  what to do if it is ingested etc should for safety reasons be in the language but they aren't.

[MoominPapa]

Just now, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Every day is a school day. The aqua question has bugged me. I'd always thought it was just pretentious marketing people trying to mask how much water was in there.

Actually, Googling reveals that it's an international convention, not an EU one. The EU applies it, but like lots of EU rules, it's actually an international rule, so leaving the EU won't allow us to "take back control", we'll have to decide to apply the same rule anyway or no-one would buy our stuff. We'd have to leave the planet to do ignore the convention, which would no doubt please some of the anti-globalist headbangers.

 

MP.

 

Just now, Jerra said:

So which country still speaks Latin? 

None, which is the point, I think. If the rule was "you can sell this stuff anywhere as long as the ingredients list is in German" then countries other than Germany would get upset. This way, everyone is in the same boat, as it were.,

 

MP.

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 hour ago, Onionman said:

 

Your pound contains 20 million litres of water.

@mrsmelly's pound contains either 20 shillings, or 240 pennies.

 

?

[mrsmelly]

10 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

@mrsmelly's pound contains either 20 shillings, or 240 pennies.

 

?

I wish 

[carlt]

30 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

By using latin, the same product can be sold in any EU country.

 

MP.

 

Thank the boris that we can go back to good old English water on Nov 1st. 

 

I'm sure this pollution malarkey is down to the Eurowater rubbish they've been putting in our washing up liquid. 

 

(edited to add : How did mrsmelly get my login details?) 

Edited July 31, 2019 by carlt

[jeff thompson]

Interesting posts. Let me add a bit. my father, having lived on the Chesapeake bay, here in the US, working with the crab boats for awhile, learned that the algae was caused by the heat AND , neighboring farm run off. Lots of fertilizers causing growth , not allowing oxygen to reach the young crabs / oysters . 

 I think the research done in London may have been " tainted" to fit their needs. High concentrates of algae usually is caused by high amounts of nitrogen .