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Hello all this is my first post to the forum and my first time owning a boat.

 

So let me just introduce myself my name is Nathan and I have just bought my self a 50ft Narrow boat. It's in a bad way at the moment so I will have my DIY skills put to the test lol. 

 

Anyway there's lots to do but I'm trying to work out how to get the electrics going.

 

It's currently dead no power as the deep cell batteries have not been touched in over 2 year's. So my first investment before any work on fitting the boat out is to get power in to the girl.

 

She has what looks to be a really old system in her. I'll try take some pictures tomorrow of the system.

 

Anyway on to my question 

 

So I'm looking to fit a completely new power system to the boat 

1) 2 X 6v 255amp batteries or maybe a 12v system.

 

2) 2 X 255 watt solar panels

 

3)  40/60 amp Mppt controller

 

Now I'd like to add a nice looking inverter something like a Sunny Boy. To run my 240v off

washing machine maybe once a week

fridge I guess 24/7

TV and Amazon fire TV 3-4 hours a night I guess when I'm at the boat .

 

Now I'm not asking about the amount of power my items would be using.

 

I'm trying to work out how I'd go about getting it all running.

 

So I think it goes like this ?

Solar to Mppt

Mppt to Batteries

Batteries to Fuse box

Batteries to sunny buy inverter

 

Then run some 2.5mm cable from the inverter to a couple of plugs in the kitchen. And a couple off plugs in the bedroom.

 

Am I on the right line's guys ?

 

Sorry for the long post and maybe going around in circles with my post but as I said I'm completely new and so many ideas running around in my head lol

 

Thanks for any help you guys can offer me 

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7 minutes ago, Nathan 0121 said:

Hello all this is my first post to the forum and my first time owning a boat.

 

So let me just introduce myself my name is Nathan and I have just bought my self a 50ft Narrow boat. It's in a bad way at the moment so I will have my DIY skills put to the test lol. 

 

Anyway there's lots to do but I'm trying to work out how to get the electrics going.

 

It's currently dead no power as the deep cell batteries have not been touched in over 2 year's. So my first investment before any work on fitting the boat out is to get power in to the girl.

 

She has what looks to be a really old system in her. I'll try take some pictures tomorrow of the system.

 

Anyway on to my question 

 

So I'm looking to fit a completely new power system to the boat 

1) 2 X 6v 255amp batteries or maybe a 12v system.

 

2) 2 X 255 watt solar panels

 

3)  40/60 amp Mppt controller

 

Now I'd like to add a nice looking inverter something like a Sunny Boy. To run my 240v off

washing machine maybe once a week

fridge I guess 24/7

TV and Amazon fire TV 3-4 hours a night I guess when I'm at the boat .

 

Now I'm not asking about the amount of power my items would be using.

 

I'm trying to work out how I'd go about getting it all running.

 

So I think it goes like this ?

Solar to Mppt

Mppt to Batteries

Batteries to Fuse box

Batteries to sunny buy inverter

 

Then run some 2.5mm cable from the inverter to a couple of plugs in the kitchen. And a couple off plugs in the bedroom.

 

Am I on the right line's guys ?

 

Sorry for the long post and maybe going around in circles with my post but as I said I'm completely new and so many ideas running around in my head lol

 

Thanks for any help you guys can offer me 

From my experience of hlidaying, and living aboard you will need more than 225Ah of batteries. You can effectively only use one half of that. I suspect you will need around 400Ah worth.

Your solar setup should be fine.....in summer. You will need an engine or genny to charge batteries on those non solar days.

2.5mm cable should be fine for sockets; use double insulated 3 core flexible cable, not the solid house type twin and earth stuff.

If the inverter has a "standby " setting then a mains style fridge should be OK.

I run our Amazon Fire stick off a 12V cigarette lighter socket to USB adapter without problems, no need for inverter.

We find 12V TV to be best from power usage point of view.

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Thank you buddy so looks like I'm along the right path. But if I go 6v then am I right in thinking I really need to go with X 4 batteries or would I still only be getting a 255amp worth of power ?

 

Any good links that explains more about the way the batteries go ?

 

Thanks again buddy ?

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36 minutes ago, Nathan 0121 said:

Hello all this is my first post to the forum and my first time owning a boat.

Welcome aboard!

 

20 minutes ago, catweasel said:

1) 2 X 6v 255amp batteries or maybe a 12v system.

Go for 12V. You'll have trouble finding equipment that works on 6V. Even 24V is easier. You can connect your two 6V batteries in series to give 12V. I assume this is 255 Amp.hour batteries. Amps is a unit of current, ie flow rate, not charge capacity. It might be cold cranking current for starting engines, which is not relavent here. "2x6V 255Ahr batteries in series to give 12V will give 255Ahr, of which only half, 127Ahr is usable. You risk damaging them if you go below 50% state of charge.

 

36 minutes ago, Nathan 0121 said:

Now I'd like to add a nice looking inverter something like a Sunny Boy. To run my 240v off

Not come across this make before. They look like grid connect inverters for domestic installation, ie they expect there to be grid mains there and may shut themselves down if they don't detect it. They also seem to be designed to take power only from the solar panels, not batteries to feed in to a running grid mains system, with no battery storage. If so, they won't work on a boat. This is from a cursory read of a web site and I may well be wrong. Not heard of them being used in a boat before, so warning bells are ringing to check further.

36 minutes ago, Nathan 0121 said:

So I think it goes like this ?

Solar to Mppt

Mppt to Batteries

Batteries to Fuse box

Batteries to sunny buy inverter

 

Then run some 2.5mm cable from the inverter to a couple of plugs in the kitchen. And a couple off plugs in the bedroom.

I'd do it:

Solar to MPPT. Have a switch between so you can disconnect the panels. Having panels connected and batteries not can destroy some MPPT controllers.

MPPT to batteries, with a suitable size fuse. Have a look at boat safety scheme requirements around fusing and isolation switches.

Batteries to inverter, via a suitable fuse (Mega fuse) and isolation switch. Big cables, depending on size of inverter and distance from batts.

Inverter to consumer unit with RCD and breaker. Also need to arrange an earth to the hull.

 

There are extra complications if you want a shore line input for connecting to a mains electric post at a mooring, or a generator on the bank. Read up about galvanic isolators, or isolation transformers to prevent hull corrosion from currents set up by different earth voltages.

 

Hope this helps.

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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A bit of a correction. It looks like some of the Sunny Boy range will work with battery storage and off grid. There are other makes that specialise in off grid inverters and solar controllers. Victron and Mastervolt are good brands.

 

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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Have a look at some solar kits, eg Bimble Solar, that will give you an idea about a SYSTEM. https://www.bimblesolar.com/offgrid/12v

You can buy second hand solar panels, but then you might want more wattage

The engine starter battery should be independent of the domestic battery bank batteries, do not buy cheapo [car] batteries.

I am a light user of electricity, but last month I used 200 units, that is quite a lot. My fridge is very inefficient. I think it needs ventilation, it probably runs far too much. I am thinking about 3 x 110 ah domestic batteries or 3 x 125 and 375 Kw solar. It's my best guesstimate. https://www.bimblesolar.com/Trojan-550W-ja?sort=p.price&order=ASC I suspect this kit will be under sized in winter, I would not fancy running an engine every night after work, even then,  you would struggle to maintain your batteries. 

Personally, I would find a good BOAT electrician and pay him to install it: by the time you have bought your stuff and tools and read  and understood the basics, it will be near enough Christmas!

You won't have time to watch TV four hours every night, well not for a year or so :)

 

btw, I understand that fuses are there to protect the batteries [eg from explosion/meltdown!], and not the appliance, this is counter-intuitive, but explains a lot, if you get to level 2 in electrickery

 

Edited by LadyG
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10 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Have a look at some solar kits, eg Bimble Solar, that will give you an idea about a SYSTEM. https://www.bimblesolar.com/offgrid/12v

You can buy second hand solar panels, but then you might want more wattage

The engine starter battery should be independent of the domestic battery bank batteries, do not buy cheapo batteries.

I am a light user of electricity, but last month I used 200 units, that is quite a lot. My fridge is very inefficient. I think it needs ventilation, it probably runs far too much.

 

What is a unit?

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7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

What is a unit?

A kWhr. Used in domestic leccy bills and some mooring shore supplies. Just for comparison, I average 60 units a month in winter from the land line, with a fridge and small freezer going, but no immersion heater, so @LadyG is using a lot at 200. You can buy/borrow a consumption meter to stick on the fridge plug to see what it is using.

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10 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

A kWhr. Used in domestic leccy bills and some mooring shore supplies. Just for comparison, I average 60 units a month in winter from the land line, with a fridge and small freezer going, but no immersion heater, so @LadyG is using a lot at 200. You can buy/borrow a consumption meter to stick on the fridge plug to see what it is using.

I think that someone has been using my power!

I just had a look at the bill, and I suspect there is a mistake!

I have a reading of my units somewhere, just cant find that wee bit of paper!

The fridge may have to go,  it's an expensive brand, but there must be some way of controlling it, other than turning it off!

It keeps my beer and my water very cold, evn at the lowest setting, at the highest setting it acts as a freezer!

 

 

Edited by LadyG
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2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I think that someone has been using my power!

 

Well, in the winter I have 2 very large 'green house heaters' running about 18 hours per day and I use something like 150 units per month (Roughly £1 per day)

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Well, in the winter I have 2 very large 'green house heaters' running about 18 hours per day and I use something like 150 units per month (Roughly £1 per day)

You're not moored next to @LadyG by any chance? ?

4 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I think that someone has been using my power!

 

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14 hours ago, LadyG said:

Have a look at some solar kits, eg Bimble Solar, that will give you an idea about a SYSTEM. https://www.bimblesolar.com/offgrid/12v

You can buy second hand solar panels, but then you might want more wattage

The engine starter battery should be independent of the domestic battery bank batteries, do not buy cheapo [car] batteries.

I am a light user of electricity, but last month I used 200 units, that is quite a lot. My fridge is very inefficient. I think it needs ventilation, it probably runs far too much. I am thinking about 3 x 110 ah domestic batteries or 3 x 125 and 375 Kw solar. It's my best guesstimate. https://www.bimblesolar.com/Trojan-550W-ja?sort=p.price&order=ASC I suspect this kit will be under sized in winter, I would not fancy running an engine every night after work, even then,  you would struggle to maintain your batteries. 

Personally, I would find a good BOAT electrician and pay him to install it: by the time you have bought your stuff and tools and read  and understood the basics, it will be near enough Christmas!

You won't have time to watch TV four hours every night, well not for a year or so :)

 

btw, I understand that fuses are there to protect the batteries [eg from explosion/meltdown!], and not the appliance, this is counter-intuitive, but explains a lot, if you get to level 2 in electrickery

 

 

Fuses are to protect cables, not appliances or batteries. A short circuited battery can supply many hundreds of amps for a short time, certainly enough to melt cables and set fire to the boat.

 

According to the OP he is a domestic electrician. If so he will have a good understanding of mains electrical practice and theory.

 

The important bit he may not be aware of is how important it is to minimise volt drop on DC installations. This is done by using cables that are much larger (cross aectional area wise) than appears to be necessary to carry the apparent dc current load. For example it is not unusual to use 10mm2 cable (which has a current carrying capacity of over 60 amps,) to supply a DC fridge,  or 95mm2 cable (which has a current carrying capacity of over 240 amps) to supply a large inverter.

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As always, every day is a school day.

 

To my mind the majority of items used on a boat day in and day out are 12v. What is the advantage (reasoning) of going down the 6 or 24 volt route? 

 

This is is a genuine question, no tricks or cleverness here!

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7 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

As always, every day is a school day.

 

To my mind the majority of items used on a boat day in and day out are 12v. What is the advantage (reasoning) of going down the 6 or 24 volt route? 

 

This is is a genuine question, no tricks or cleverness here!

6V - none

 

24V - in my view mostly illusionary relating to the ability to use thinner and this cheaper cables. On advantage is that 24 volts alternators and starters are designed for commercial vehicles and buses etc. so are likely to be more robust than car 12V units.

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12 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

6V - none

 

24V - in my view mostly illusionary relating to the ability to use thinner and this cheaper cables. On advantage is that 24 volts alternators and starters are designed for commercial vehicles and buses etc. so are likely to be more robust than car 12V units.

Thanks Tony. Not that I was going to change, but if I ever think that I might consider doing so, now I won't!

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13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

6V - none

 

24V - in my view mostly illusionary relating to the ability to use thinner and this cheaper cables. On advantage is that 24 volts alternators and starters are designed for commercial vehicles and buses etc. so are likely to be more robust than car 12V units.

Losses in cables and joints are also a bit lower with 24V systems

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19 hours ago, Nathan 0121 said:

2.5mm cable from the inverter to a couple of plugs in the kitchen.

Some of this has been said earlier but deserves repeating:

  • 2.5mm flex to a consumer unit. 
  • 2.5mm flex from cu to socket outlets. 
  • Radial, not ring.
  • Crimped ferrules on the cable ends where they connect to screw terminals. 
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Thank you to all for the comments.

I'd like to save cash in the long run and just go with lithium but the outlay might be to much for me with the out lay needed for the boat. As it was sat for over 2 year's lots of water in the engine bay and under the kitchen floor. Then at the front of the boat the water tank connection to the pump was just a bit of tubing with tape wrapped around it. So I'm guessing again over time it's been leaking out.

 

My plan it to remove all units from the boat. The kitchen is going in the bin the built in furniture is going in to storage along with the bath and all others bits.

 

I'll then be removing the hole floor letting it dry out. Then wire brushing it repairing and week points in the steel. Then treating with vactan and red oxide paint.

Then I'll check all the plumbing for leaks and fix where needed. Then lay down a new floor and refit just one of the beds so I got something to rest on and work section at a time and work my way from one side of the boat to the other.

 

Had a bit of a disaster today working in the engine bay removing old built up oil and junk from in there. 

 

There was a old non working bilge pump so went to remove it and it had been stuck down to a non treated  steel plate. When it come free it created two holes in the steel floor about match stick sizes.

 

So tomorrow I'm of to a steel works to get a price on new steel . Will do it all just to be safe 

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8 hours ago, Nathan 0121 said:

There was a old non working bilge pump so went to remove it and it had been stuck down to a non treated  steel plate. When it come free it created two holes in the steel floor about match stick sizes.

It will 'cost', but :

 

If the steel is that thin what will happen when you run over and snag on a 'shopping trolley', bicycle, motorcycle, safe, etc etc etc that have been dumped in the canal.

Get the boat lifted out and have the hull surveyed (cost probably £600-£1000 including lift out), otherwise after doing all the work and spending all the money refitting it, your first cruise may be its last.

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Yes will be getting it out and in the dry doc asap and I'll get it it surveyed. Before I get it blacked. 

The back end had about 3inch of water in it. But I got the boat for a great price.

 

So i have some money that I can buy the steel with and know a welder so will get good deal on the welding.

As long as it's just the back should be ok . If not I'll bite the bullet and get it over plated

 

Edited by Nathan 0121
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Suggest you read this site.   http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/evolve.html

It was written by an acknowledged expert, and covers most aspects of boat electrics.  Except solar.

Take note of the wiring sizes, and battery layout.

Ensure you have the means to recharge the batteries properly.

 

Bod

P.s. Get a copy of the B.S.S. regulations, available on line, and make sure all work done on the boat conforms.   

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