Battery bank without grounding?

[Theo]

While you are considering the "petrol" generator, be aware that petrol is a) difficult to come by on the water and b) expensive.  Consider a gas conversion.  I fitted a conversion when my Kipor was quite new and have found it so much more economical.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Theo said:

While you are considering the "petrol" generator, be aware that petrol is a) difficult to come by on the water and b) expensive.  Consider a gas conversion.  I fitted a conversion when my Kipor was quite new and have found it so much more economical.

 

May I ask a couple of questions about your LPG conversion?

Do you find it cheaper than petrol on a boat size 13kg bottle?
Did you do your own conversion?
Many thanks.

[Momac]

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Of course I know but I think you overstate the dangers. Its a bit like saying people get killed crossing the road so never cross the road. I have often run my generator while doing small jobs on the cruiser stern and also in the well deck but for that I make sure the cover is rolled right up. 

It is not possible to over state the dangers of CO from petrol engine exhaust.

You seem to under estimate the hazard . 

[Tony Brooks]

12 minutes ago, MartynG said:

It is not possible to over state the dangers of CO from petrol engine exhaust.

You seem to under estimate the hazard . 

and in my view the contrary applies to your thoughts. People survive cases of CO poisoning, few survive a petrol explosion. Sensible precautions need to be taken but in my view saying they must always be operated on the bank is another case of H&S gone mad. What is the difference between operating the generator on a large tug deck and on the bank?

 

Thinking about it there must be hundreds of bikers and car owners who work on running engines in their garages etc. Sometimes in winter with the doors and windows closed. If CO from a running engine was a lethal as you seek to imply the death rate would be far higher. In fact When a whole workshop full of cars were being run up for various reasons I should have been dead years ago. No exhaust extraction in those days.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Tony Brooks

[Momac]

10 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

and in my view the contrary applies to your thoughts. People survive cases of CO poisoning, few survive a petrol explosion. Sensible precautions need to be taken but in my view saying they must always be operated on the bank is another case of H&S gone mad. What is the difference between operating the generator on a large tug deck and on the bank?

 

Thinking about it there must be hundreds of bikers and car owners who work on running engines in their garages etc. Sometimes in winter with the doors and windows closed. If CO from a running engine was a lethal as you seek to imply the death rate would be far higher. In fact When a whole workshop full of cars were being run up for various reasons I should have been dead years ago. No exhaust extraction in those days.

I completely oppose your views in this matter.

I have seen two kids lives ruined from brain damage due to CO poisining.  Now adult age one is blind and the other needs total care.

People have died in boats from CO poisoning  because the boat is a good receptacle for containing gas.

Why do you think the BSS now requires CO detectors? 

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Why do you think the BSS now requires CO detectors? 

 

How did this pass me by? How do you know this? Can you post up a link please?

 

Many thanks..

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

How did this pass me by? How do you know this? Can you post up a link please?

 

Many thanks..

 

 

A Co alarm must be fitted in each 'accommodation' (cabin)

 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination-and-certification/private-boats/

 

There are four new BSS Check items in the BSS examination:

Check 6.4.1 covers the provision of alarms in suitable numbers – this check ensures everyone on board can hear the alarm if it activates.

Check 6.4.2 is an Advice check for private boats, promoting a CO alarm in the same space as a solid fuel stove – stoves can present a specific risk if flue gases enter the cabin.

Check 6.4.3 requires CO alarms to be placed in open view, be of a certified quality and have a test function button – this check provides an assurance about the quality of alarm manufacture and performance.

Check 6.4.4 requires CO alarms to be in good and working condition, showing no signs of damage, being within any visible expiry dates and passing the function test using the test button – this check ensures the alarm will work effectively if called upon.

 

It has been discussed on here for the last 12months + Do you not remember all the discussions about the 'Part 1 and Part 2' specification variations, and the lack of supply of the Part 2 (marine) type so the BSS have accepted the Part 1 type as an alternative ?

 

There was even a survey sent out to boaters.

 

More details :

 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/296735/BSS-COAR-Handout-21Mar2019-reduced-size.pdf

Edited July 29, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

Blimey, thanks!!

[Tony Brooks]

41 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I completely oppose your views in this matter.

I have seen two kids lives ruined from brain damage due to CO poisining.  Now adult age one is blind and the other needs total care.

People have died in boats from CO poisoning  because the boat is a good receptacle for containing gas.

Why do you think the BSS now requires CO detectors? 

I think you are vastly overstating the case and taking your opinion to the logical conclusion all non-room sealed fuel burning appliances should be banned from both boats and homes.  The closest we come to that are the very recent requirements for CO detectors. In fact those self same CO detectors would protect against CO from any source including generators.

 

The point is that you seem to be extrapolation from two people plus  reports about other instances to promote your opinions and try to foist them on anyone who will listen. I am not saying CO is not dangerous, we all know it is. This is about the relative dangers of petrol and CO from generators. You state the dangers from CO but failed to mention the dangers from petrol leaks/fumes. you did not seem to like it when I pointed out that a petrol leak or fumes were, in my view, more likely to be life threatening than CO. CO is dangerous but so are any volatile fumes inside a boat. Inside a boat CO2 can still drown you but will not alter your blood function like CO.  There are two dangers when using any form of portable generator. The potential for CO poisoning and any dangers related to the fuel. With a  diesel generator I agree CO is probably the most dangerous. With petrol or gas power then I think the danger of virtually instant death if there are leaks probably lies with the fuel. You really should not extrapolate things that happen to idiots and those involved with them to everyone. I still can not see where the danger of using a petrol generator at suitable places on a boat makes it any more dangerous than on the bank and I note that you do not seem to have given any thought to my question about the comparison of running on the bank and on a large tug deck. As with all tools you have to understand the dangers are use them accordingly. With petrol generators there are two dangers and you only mentions one.

[Momac]

9 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 With a  diesel generator I agree CO is probably the most dangerous. 

A diesel engine produces much lower CO in its exhaust compared to a petrol engine.

 

You do at least concede CO is potentially dangerous.

 

You are entitled to your opinion but it seems you think others aren't. 

[Momac]

On ‎29‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 09:09, Tony Brooks said:

I think you are vastly overstating the case and taking your opinion ..................

By the way its an opinion based on the BSS advice on this subject , as follows.

 

Boat Safety Scheme (BSS), made this blunt statement in light of the fatalities and injuries that have taken place on boats across the UK in recent years; devastating events that could have been avoided if the correct safety measures were taken.

Petrol generators can be seen as critical to some boaters wanting off-grid electrical power. Yet the fact that generators emit deadly carbon monoxide and need refuelling with highly flammable petrol means they must be never be installed in an enclosed cockpit area or engine space of a boat and must never be used on or close to the boat where exhaust fumes could enter the boat and where they can cause injuries or fatalities.

 

Graham Watts, BSS manager, Boat Safety Scheme says,

“On too many occasions we hear of fatalities or near fatalities on boats caused by the incorrect use of portable generators. The heart-breaking thing is that on most occasions the accident could have been avoided, and lives saved, if generators are used according to manufacturer’s instructions – in the open and away from the boat.”

The BSS says that if boaters want to use generators, these three basic bullet points should be followed: -

• Never install a portable generator permanently or make unauthorised modifications that are not supported by the manufacturer, or proprietary component supplier.

• Never run generators on the boat, or on the bank near to the boat’s doors, vents, windows and hatches. If you can smell exhaust fumes in the boat, it could mean the cabin is also filling with deadly carbon monoxide.
• Never refuel any generator anywhere aboard the boat; take it to the bank and ensure you are a safe distance from other boats and potential sources of ignition.

However, make sure you are keeping to any marina or mooring-owner guidance and rules on the use of generators, refuelling and the handling of petrol on their sites.

Further advice for boaters on staying safe using generators is available on www.boatsafetyscheme.org/generators .

 

 

[Detling]

For interest I heard the fire at Upton marina was caused by a build up of petrol fumes, and I think last year a boat fire whilst refuelling ,so they are real life issues with petrol.

[Tony Brooks]

The BSS also has things to say about petrol on boats because that is dangerous as well. I agree CO from a generator exhaust has the potential to be dangerous and even lethal given time. I know the same applies to petrol but the time may well be far shorter than with CO from a generator exhaust. You seem to acknowledge there is a danger with petrol but dismiss this by saying something to the effect it is not a danger with a well maintained generator. What you do not seem to knowledge is that the quality of generator build and maintenance varies wildly. I have seen flexible petrol hoses that have failed for no apparent reason but also from old age. I have seen carburettors flood, sometimes for no apparent reason and sometimes  because of wear and old age. I have seen seals on petrol taps leak and so on. If you are talking about a new Honda or similar then you are probably correct the danger from a petrol leak is less than the danger from CO but once you get onto Ebay specials and any generator that is getting old or has not been maintained then in my view things are somewhat different. I believe the relative dangers switch round, you clearly do not so lets just let it rest. It si juts a matter of judgement and opinion.

 

Incidentally as a result of our discussions I was researching the amount of CO in petrol engine exhaust. One university paper (the only one I found that might be comparable to a generator) gave the percentage when cruising (so at a steady speed, just like a generator) of 0.8% so by no means as high as you seem imply. I accept a two stroke may well be higher.

3 minutes ago, Detling said:

For interest I heard the fire at Upton marina was caused by a build up of petrol fumes, and I think last year a boat fire whilst refuelling ,so they are real life issues with petrol.

 

That was the point I have been trying to make. CO is not the be all and end all or danger with petrol generators.

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

That was the point I have been trying to make. CO is not the be all and end all or danger with petrol generators.

The boat fire at Burton Waters was petrol fumes igniting.

 

Boat Fire at Burton Waters

 

It is believed the fire started accidentally after a visiting boat – a Freedom 22 – had just refuelled at the marina’s diesel pump. It is thought a carburettor of the motor yacht backfired and ignited fuel vapour.

The flames spread from the boat to the Stella Maris. The two fuel pumps, jetty and two trees were also on fire, and thick black smoke could be seen above the marina.

The fuel pumps are expected to be back in operation within the next two weeks.

The managing director of Burton Waters Boat Sales, Adam Cox, explained what happened.

“What happened was that a visiting boat came and was fuelled up and then the man came to pay. It was nearly 20 minutes later that he started the boat up and at that point he saw there was a fire on board so he quickly gets off,” he said.

“Our fire safety team tried to deal with the fire at first but it was just too fierce but the firefighters were here really quickly. Thankfully, no-one was hurt,” added Cox

Read more at https://www.ybw.com/news-from-yachting-boating-world/two-boats-destroyed-by-fire-at-burton-waters-marina-50018#28qhTXLSQOe6U0MM.99

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

In both cases the results of leaking petrol fumes was explosive rather than acting over time to give those affected time to take remedial action. That is why in my view the greater danger with generators is the petrol.

[Alan de Enfield]

For a multitude of reasons, use of petrol generators aboard a boat = not safe.

 

Run it dry, stored correctly and only used on the bankside. = Happy !!!

Edited July 30, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[blackrose]

On ‎28‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 21:57, Tony Brooks said:

and in my view the contrary applies to your thoughts. People survive cases of CO poisoning, few survive a petrol explosion. Sensible precautions need to be taken but in my view saying they must always be operated on the bank is another case of H&S gone mad. What is the difference between operating the generator on a large tug deck and on the bank?

 

 

Assuming any petrol fumes from refuelling spill overboard then none. But that is an assumption. If you're refuelling ashore then the risk is vastly reduced.

[cuthound]

Surely if you are grounding after fitting your battery bank then you need to reduce it weight (and thus capacity)? ?

 

Of course if you meant earthing (the forum is based in the UK, not  the US of A) then yes it should be connected to earth (the hull) as close as practicable, but not onto the A.C. earthing stud.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

yes it should be connected to earth (the hull) as close as practicable, but not onto the A.C. earthing stud.

 

How do the electrons know to behave differently according to whether they are going through a separate stud very close to the AC earth stud, or though the AC earth stud directly? 

 

 

[cuthound]

42 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

How do the electrons know to behave differently according to whether they are going through a separate stud very close to the AC earth stud, or though the AC earth stud directly? 

 

 

 

They don't, but, as I'm sure you know, if you put both AC and DC earths onto the same stud, there is a chance of the 12 volt system become live (at mains voltage) in the event of a fault.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

They don't, but, as I'm sure you know, if you put both AC and DC earths onto the same stud, there is a chance of the 12 volt system become live (at mains voltage) in the event of a fault.

 

I don't see how separate studs alleviate that risk. Unless one stud is fixed on with chewing gum instead of weld. Or the hull is GRP. ?

 

 

 

 

[cuthound]

11 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I don't see how separate studs alleviate that risk. Unless one stud is fixed on with chewing gum instead of weld. Or the hull is GRP. ?

 

 

 

 

 

Or the AC cable comes off its stud and touches the DC one.

[Paul C]

Its to do with the danger if the stud detaches from the hull, but leaves the 12V DC neg side attached to the 230V AC ground; then a fault on an AC piece of equipment sends the 230V AC ground to 230V.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Paul C said:

Its to do with the danger if the stud detaches from the hull, but leaves the 12V DC neg side attached to the 230V AC ground; then a fault on an AC piece of equipment sends the 230V AC ground to 230V.

 

Ah I see. Thanks for a proper explanation that makes good technical sense.

 

For me however that lies in the realms of the vanishingly unlikely. There are far bigger risks associated with boating e.g. death by falling in/drowning.

 

Has anyone ever been killed by a common earth stud becoming detached and a 240v fault making something 12v go live? I rather doubt it. And even if they have, I bet they are outnumbered by drownings and deaths by falling in by a long chalk. 

 

 

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Ah I see. Thanks for a proper explanation that makes good technical sense.

 

For me however that lies in the realms of the vanishingly unlikely. There are far bigger risks associated with boating e.g. death by falling in/drowning.

 

Has anyone ever been killed by a common earth stud becoming detached and a 240v fault making something 12v go live? I rather doubt it. And even if they have, I bet they are outnumbered by drownings and deaths by falling in by a long chalk. 

 

 

 

 I don't know if anyone has been killed by this on a boat, but I i also think it unlikely. However I suspect it has its roots in best electrcial practice.

 

BS7671, the IET regs, recommend that the various earth systems in a building (electrical protective earth, lightning system earth and the various functional earths) be kept seperate until the last practicable common point usually at the building earth bar. The equivalent of building earth bar on a boat is its hull.

 

The reason for this is to prevent other earth systems becoming live in the event of an accidental cross connection or a fault.