Boat review questions.

[RMK]

2 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

Thanks, you’ve just highlighted my point far better than I did.

The first thing a true boatbuilder is isn’t a coded welder, it’s a boat enthusiast. You can’t build a decent boat until you’ve had time and experience actually using one. That’s why the current elite of builders have spent time boating, living with and restoring, real boats. Yes, any fabrication company can build an excellent shell from plan, but the point is a good builder doesn’t need the plan in the first place. 

Take a boat from an old school builder for a run down the canal, or better still river. Now do the same with a lovely shiny, straight as a die, crisp folds and buffed welds, built by XR&JW etc etc and you’ll quickly realise the difference. There’s always going to be customers for mass produced new shells, but as really good builders dwindle the market for high quality older stuff will always be there. 

Certainly a boaters/novice point of view you have.. Nothing wrong with that and we expect it.

 

There are many enthusiasts around building, most are hobbyist can't be classed as anything more, not certificated in any way, shape or form.

But there are the exceptions, those that started out by being part of 'the trade', also still in the trade but enthusiasts too, we'd put ourselves there. But you have to have credentials, skills and indeed enthusiasm. But enthusiasm alone is not a skill.

[Rickent]

43 minutes ago, RMK said:

What is it's pedigree ?

What certification did the builder have ?

Were they even coded welders (doubtful) ?

 

From a boaters point of view (yours), this ( the boat) may be something to be regarded as great. But from a fabricator/builders point of view, it's just another boat that under inspection, will probably turn up all sorts of issues. A 'boatbuilder' has to be a fabricator and welder first, there is no such thing as a boatbuilder without those credentials. Certification goes a long way, as does welding done by certificated welders (coded).

 

To most boaters on here and we do understand that more or less all are boaters, ie; not in the trade. Then we would say learn, before commenting.

Just to be clear, the vast majority of narrow-boat builders are not certificated for anything in the steel fabrication trade. Ask for sight of certificates and you'll soon find out. If that was brought in as a standard requirement (and it should be), you would see a lot of names, those you boaters think are good, just fade away, or start the trade training & courses, they should have already taken, probably years ago.

It would also bring prices down to the norm rather than inflated by, guess who..... boaters..

 

 

Now OP.

The boat looks o.k. but is £20-30,000 overpriced (at least, probably more). But as has been said here already, in today's market, well what you are willing to pay is the price of the boat. That makes it harder for the next buyer of any boat though. Because you boaters are your own worst enemy really.

Get it inspected and have them run that meter, for more than a few minutes, in more than just a few places.

 

Good luck with it anyway.

It might be overpriced , but by 20 to 30k ? Possibly more.

You think this is a 25k boat ? 

??

Edited July 26, 2019 by Rickent

[matty40s]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

RMK - you do build some nice boats :-

 

The RMK 5000 Explorer.

 

Looks like a Habitat cheese grater on its side

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, matty40s said:

However, you gave your opinion of it being a "pedestrian" boat, which he didnt ask for, neither is it one.

 

Jeez, you're STILL not listening. That's not my opinion of it, I'm saying how Mr and Mrs Average Boat Buyer will perceive it, which addresses the question the OP asked. 

 

 

[RMK]

Just now, Rickent said:

It might be overpriced , but by 20 to 30k ?

You think this is a 25k boat ? 

??

Until inspected, yes.

Even if inspected and found to be good, then lets say a ceiling of 35,000. But this highlights the point. It will sell for whatever someone will pay and we're not saying it shouldn't. Just saying we wouldn't.

[matty40s]

2 minutes ago, Rickent said:

It might be overpriced , but by 20 to 30k ? Possibly more.

You think this is a 25k boat ? 

??

RMK hasnt seen the boat, seen previous surveys, and certainly hasnt been on it to come up with that daft figure.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Looks like a Habitat cheese grater on its side

Wouldn't know - the poundland one works fine for us.

[Rickent]

9 minutes ago, matty40s said:

RMK hasnt seen the boat, seen previous surveys, and certainly hasnt been on it to come up with that daft figure.

Looks a very nice boat to me, would I pay 60k ? Possibly not, but to say it is 30k overpriced is ridiculous. 

[noddyboater]

10 minutes ago, RMK said:

Certainly a boaters/novice point of view you have.. Nothing wrong with that and we expect it.

 

There are many enthusiasts around building, most are hobbyist can't be classed as anything more, not certificated in any way, shape or form.

But there are the exceptions, those that started out by being part of 'the trade', also still in the trade but enthusiasts too, we'd put ourselves there. But you have to have credentials, skills and indeed enthusiasm. But enthusiasm alone is not a skill.

Certainly a boaters point of view, but I wouldn’t class myself as a novice. I think you’re missing my point entirely to be honest, but as a fabricator I’d also expect that.

 I’ll compare it with my trade, fixing cars. I mainly work on cars from an Italian manufacturer, often owned by enthusiasts. They entrust me with their pride and joy but I can honestly say I’ve never been asked to show what qualifications I have to do so. If I applied for a job changing wiper blades at the local Ford dealer I’m sure that’s the first thing I’d be asked for, but funnily enough I won’t be.

[Victor Vectis]

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Mr and Mrs Normal viewing it will probably complain about being unable to stand up in the back cabin, too.

Aren't Mr and Mre Normal buying widebeams?

[RMK]

4 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

Certainly a boaters point of view, but I wouldn’t class myself as a novice. I think you’re missing my point entirely to be honest, but as a fabricator I’d also expect that.

 I’ll compare it with my trade, fixing cars. I mainly work on cars from an Italian manufacturer, often owned by enthusiasts. They entrust me with their pride and joy but I can honestly say I’ve never been asked to show what qualifications I have to do so. If I applied for a job changing wiper blades at the local Ford dealer I’m sure that’s the first thing I’d be asked for, but funnily enough I won’t be.

Do you have qualifications ? (I'm not asking to see any)

 

'Novice' is a harsh word, I agree, so I'll withdraw that.

 

_____________

 

Further to the thread. Just asking, are people on this forum allowed a point of view ? if yes, then that is what we are giving, nothing more.

Not here to upset people, just here to give a view.

 

Oh and yes..

The 5000 is indeed a fantastic piece of work.

[Victor Vectis]

1 minute ago, RMK said:

The 5000 is indeed a fantastic piece of work.

Yeahbut, could you get it through the Froghall Tunnel?

 

[howardang]

39 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Looks like a Habitat cheese grater on its side

That just looks wrong on so many levels! However, I'm sure there is a market for boats like this - boats without soul.

 

Howard

[Richard10002]

32 minutes ago, RMK said:

Until inspected, yes.

Even if inspected and found to be good, then lets say a ceiling of 35,000. But this highlights the point. It will sell for whatever someone will pay and we're not saying it shouldn't. Just saying we wouldn't.

If it will sell for what someone will pay, and it sells for £50k, then that is actually what it is worth on the day. It doesnt matter what you think it's worth, (to you). You're not looking to buy the boat, you haven't viewed it, and you have made every possible negative assumption that could be made about the boat, (and then some).

 

Having said that, Rugby boats always seem expensive but well presented, so I dont think it's worth £60k either . They wouldn't be on my list of go to brokers if I was looking for a boat.

 

Having said that, if I wanted a lovely looking, turnkey solution, and money was no issue, maybe they would be on my list.

[GRLMK38]

I bet you're glad you asked!

 

I bought a 1993 boat with a Gardner 3LW and polystyrene insulation (admittedly it has a thicker baseplate).  Best thing I ever did... there is an advantage to polystyrene, you can remove it easily when you need to and put it back in the same way.  Try doing that with sprayfoam.

 

As for "it's over priced by £20-30K" - not based on what I have seen advertised for £30-40K it's not.

 

The only thing that I noticed was the 2'1" draft which means it must be turning a smallish prop and therefore the handling may be different to something turning a 23-24".  At least it will make the engine work.

 

They say the boat finds you, maybe this is the one?  It's has clearly been looked after based on the standard of engine polishing on show.

[Mick in Bangkok]

2 minutes ago, GRLMK38 said:

The only thing that I noticed was the 2'1" draft which means it must be turning a smallish prop and therefore the handling may be different to something turning a 23-24".  At least it will make the engine work.

I'm not sure of prop size but wouldn't the 2'1" be a plus considering many vintage engine boats are deeper and more prone to grounding

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

I'm not sure of prop size but wouldn't the 2'1" be a plus considering many vintage engine boats are deeper and more prone to grounding

Small prop, Plusses & Minuses.

 

Plus = Shallow draft

Minus = difficult to stop / start moving.

 

 

If you are approaching a mooring space, you want to be able to ensure you stop in the correct position, having a boat which you need to 'start trying to stop' 500 yards before you get there is like trying to turn an Oil tanker.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Jeez, you're STILL not listening. That's not my opinion of it, I'm saying how Mr and Mrs Average Boat Buyer will perceive it, which addresses the question the OP asked. 

 

 

Pedestrian IS your opinion, I have never heard anybody buying boats refer to one as pedestrian. Clonecraft maybe ( copyright Carlt), boring, a Whilton boat, typical Liverpool boat etc....but pedestrian, no.

[GRLMK38]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Small prop, Plusses & Minuses.

 

Plus = Shallow draft

Minus = difficult to stop / start moving.

 

 

If you are approaching a mooring space, you want to be able to ensure you stop in the correct position, having a boat which you need to 'start trying to stop' 500 yards before you get there is like trying to turn an Oil tanker.

All of the above is true and the gearbox ratio will also affect the starting, stopping and tick over/cruising speed. That doesn't get mentioned in the boat details. 

 

Bear in mind a 3LW ticks over at 420rpm('ish). In my case with a 2:1 reduction, tick over speed doesn't induce moaning and groaning and cruising on the canal is 600-700rpm (more on the big rivers).  A 1.5:1 or 1:1 may be better suited to a smaller prop.

 

I needed interior headroom and my preference was for deep draught rather than air draught so I put up with grounding occasionally.

 

P.S.  I use about 0.9l/hr diesel on average.  Less than most modern Japanese units.

 

[noddyboater]

1 hour ago, RMK said:

Do you have qualifications ? (I'm not asking to see any)

 

'Novice' is a harsh word, I agree, so I'll withdraw that.

 

_____________

 

Further to the thread. Just asking, are people on this forum allowed a point of view ? if yes, then that is what we are giving, nothing more.

Not here to upset people, just here to give a view.

 

Oh and yes..

The 5000 is indeed a fantastic piece of work.

Yes thanks, I do have qualifications. 

I’ll try to put my point in basic black and white terms, that most people should grasp. 

How many people have heard of an older boat, built by an enthusiast who knows his stuff fail due to faulty weld or poor construction? None I’ve heard of.

And how many boats built by coded welders are cluttering up our canals that steer like lame pigs and look like shite? Lots. 

[alan_fincher]

33 minutes ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

I'm not sure of prop size but wouldn't the 2'1" be a plus considering many vintage engine boats are deeper and more prone to grounding

I can't see the 2' 1" as being likely to be a genuine figure.

Unlikely you could swing a suitable prop for a 3LW if it is.

I bet it is closer to 2' 6" in reality.

 

Note this boat is claimed toi have the infamous Axiom prop.  A truly revolutionary improvement in prop design that somehow managed to cease being produced after only a very short space of time, I think.  (Where is that sarasm smiley, when you need it?).  Whilst a few have sworn by them, many other people have been unimpressed to the point of removing them and replacing therm with something conventional.  I think you at least need to budget that you may end up wanting to do that.

Edited July 26, 2019 by alan_fincher

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

I can't see the 2' 1" as being likely to be a genuine figure.

Unlikely you could swing a suitable prop for a 3LW if it is.

I bet it is closer to 2' 6" in reality.

 

Note this boat is claimed toi have the infamous Axiom.  Whilst a few have sworn by them, many other people have been unimpressed to the point of removing them and replacing therm with something conventional.  I think you at least need to budget that you may end up wanting to do that.

Having steered this boat, the prop is just fine(quite a deep pitch perhaps?), boat stops well and steers beautifully.

[blackrose]

22 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

 

Incidentally, I have been amused recently though to see references to people having "portholes" when what is fitted are clearly are modern style round windows, with a glass that is divided across the middle, and part drops back to open.  I'm sorry, those are windows, (just not very big ones!), not portholes.

 

If you're being pedantic that's correct. A lot of people know that their round windows aren't technically portholes but for most mere mortals it's just a term that's come to mean a small, round window.

 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/porthole

[Athy]

11 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

If you're being pedantic that's correct. A lot of people know that their round windows aren't technically portholes but for most mere mortals it's just a term that's come to mean a small, round window.

 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/porthole

But the dictionary to which you have provided a link does indeed define it as "a small, usually round window" - so why are there technically not portholes?

[Neil2]

17 hours ago, matty40s said:

Having steered this boat, the prop is just fine(quite a deep pitch perhaps?), boat stops well and steers beautifully.

I had a long discussion with an engineer friend about Axiom props some time ago.   In short, his experience was that the Axiom can provide the characteristics of a larger prop at modest diameters, so that you can have the advantage that a big prop gives without having to increase the boat draught.  Conventional wisdom is that if you want a big slow revving engine you must accept a deep draught to accommodate a large dia prop.  It may well be that CTS are/were aware of the properties of Axiom props and built this boat specifically to the owners requirements ie a "trad" engine but with relatively shallow draught.  It sounds like having your cake and eating it but my friend had fitted an Axiom to his boat and was convinced.   There are those that will say if the Axiom was so good why did they go out of business, but how many narrowboat owners know anything about, or have the slightest interest in, what pushes their boat along?  

 

I think we're looking at a unique boat here and the price tag is entirely justified.  In fact if the OP doesn't buy it I might have a look at it myself...