Boat review questions.

[Mick in Bangkok]

Good morning everyone,

The boat advertised in the below link looks to tick all the required box’s for personal preferences but I do have a few specific questions I would like to ask of the experienced boaters;

http://rugbyboats.co.uk/listings/hope-cts-608-trad-1990/

1. Engine hours “4,946”

2. Hull thickness “8/6/4”

3. Insulation “polystyrene double layer”

Assuming the engine is running well at the time of sale would this engine still require overhauling in the not to distant future?

Hull thickness also raises concern of at some point over plating may be required.

I have heard bade reviews on polystyrene boards  but not come across “double layer” before.

My biggest concern would be resale value of the boat in say 2 or 3 years and how these issues would hinder resale and price even if the new owner had several good years cruising from the boat.

Also the engine size 3LW Gardner would make it very suitable for river cruising, am I correct in this assumption?

Thanks for any comments

Mick

[blackrose]

If the engine has been regularly serviced and maintained then those engine hours are fine and so are the hull thicknesses subject to survey, but I wouldn't fancy spending £60k on a boat with EPS sheet insulation. For that sort of money I'm sure you could get a boat that was built more recently and has better insulation and probably a thicker baseplate too, although there's nothing wrong with 8mm.

Edited July 26, 2019 by blackrose

[Mick in Bangkok]

I’m not planning on wintering on a boat myself so this issue of insulation is more regarding the resale however I should ask if the insulation has a bearing on keeping cool in summer or any other issues I may not be considering.

[noddyboater]

I wouldn’t be worried about the engine needing an overhaul, many Gardners have done far more hours with nothing but regular (or not!) oil changes. And yes, it will easily handle any river conditions.

 The baseplate thickness may put some people off but it’s all relative, my 1989 boat has lost less than 1mm from the baseplate which has never been painted. The rest of the hull should be fine as it’s been epoxied so you’d expect blasted first. 

Polystyrene sheet insulation was pretty normal at that period, as long as cables are run in conduit it’s ok, although there’s more chance of condensation drips etc around  nooks and crannies.

It’s top money for a boat of that age, but there’s plenty of more modern stuff that’s far worse. It’s a good builder- a proper boat buider, not a fabricator, with a quality fitout and sought after engine. 

[blackrose]

14 minutes ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

I’m not planning on wintering on a boat myself so this issue of insulation is more regarding the resale however I should ask if the insulation has a bearing on keeping cool in summer or any other issues I may not be considering.

 

Any insulation system on a steel boat fails pretty quickly in hot summer weather in direct sunshine. It doesn't seem to matter how thick the foam is or how well it was applied, it will be hot inside.

[MtB]

If I were spending £60k on a boat those with 8mm baseplate and polystyrene insulation would be the first to cross off my list. At that price bracket you can expect a 10mm or 15mm baseplate and proper spray foam. 

 

I think £60k for such a pedestrian boat with thin baseplate by today's standards, dodgy insulation and dated looking interior seems ambitious at best, albeit built by a very good builder. Or maybe I'm out of touch with current prices. 

 

 

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

If I were spending £60k on a boat those with 8mm baseplate and polystyrene insulation would be the first to cross off my list. At that price bracket you can expect a 10mm or 15mm baseplate and proper spray foam. 

 

I think £60k for such a pedestrian boat with thin baseplate by today's standards, dodgy insulation and dated looking interior seems ambitious at best, albeit built by a very good builder. Or maybe I'm out of touch with current prices. 

 

 

You are, certainly not pedestrian.

Would you rather have a 10mm baseplate with 3- 4mm pits, or an 8mm without any? 

Engine purrs along and has spent many summers on the Thames, ,Trent and other rivers/tidal sections. 

 

[Neil2]

Those who think it is a lot of money should maybe pay closer attention to the market and observe how rare quality boats like this come up for sale.  As we are fond of saying on this forum, maintenance is everything and age is irrelevant if a boat has been fastidiously looked after.  

 

To pass on such a boat simply because it has an 8mm bottom and poly slab insulation is just ridiculous. 

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

i think £60k for such a pedestrian boat with thin baseplate by today's standards, dodgy insulation and dated looking interior seems ambitious at best, albeit built by a very good builder. Or maybe I'm out of touch with current prices. 

 

 

I don't think many people would call a CTS boat like this "pedestrian".

 

From a quick glance it looks far from pedestrian, and well presented.

 

Can you provide OP with links to other boats of this quality that you think are much better value?

 

I'm intrigued by such precise engine hours though - I guess it has an hour counter now, but when did that hour counter start counting?  It's not like the engine would have been new when first put in the boat is it?  More likely those are hours in this boat, rather than hours from new, I would have thought.

 

Note that while Gardners have a huge fan club, there are none the less recorded cases where they have had expensive massive failures due to correct tolerances not having been followed on a rebuild.  Worth finding out who rebuilt this one, and when, and satisfying yourself that it was one of the experts in the field.

[noddyboater]

New (or unused) 3LW’s were actually turning up and being fitted to new builds as late as 2000, so it might not be a rebuild. 

Some of the last were brought back from America still crated from new. 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, matty40s said:

You are, certainly not pedestrian.

Would you rather have a 10mm baseplate with 3- 4mm pits, or an 8mm without any? 

Engine purrs along and has spent many summers on the Thames, ,Trent and other rivers/tidal sections. 

 

 

I was answering the OPs question about likely 'sellability' of the boat in a few years' time. This is how Mrs and Mrs Normal will see it. Pedestrian. 60ft boat with a Gardner and bus windows is how it will be seen by yer average uninformed buyer, who will then worry about the 'thin' baseplate. Just like the OP is.

 

Mr and Mrs Normal viewing it will probably complain about being unable to stand up in the back cabin, too. 

 

 

 

 

[noddyboater]

8 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I was answering the OPs question about likely 'sellability' of the boat in a few years' time. This is how Mrs and Mrs Normal will see it. Pedestrian. 60ft boat with a Gardner and bus windows is how it will be seen by yer average uninformed buyer, who will then worry about the 'thin' baseplate. Just like the OP is.

 

Mr and Mrs Normal viewing it will probably complain about being unable to stand up in the back cabin, too. 

 

 

 

 

You’d hope that in years to come boats like this will be appreciated for what they are, and always find a buyer. There’s so much dross around now that hardly resemble a reasonably shaped boat that stuff like this will stand out from the crowd as a “proper” boat, albeit with square windows. 

I think older well maintained craft with a good pedigree will actually go up in value, as mine has already. 

[MtB]

25 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

You’d hope that in years to come boats like this will be appreciated for what they are, and always find a buyer. There’s so much dross around now that hardly resemble a reasonably shaped boat that stuff like this will stand out from the crowd as a “proper” boat, albeit with square windows. 

I think older well maintained craft with a good pedigree will actually go up in value, as mine has already. 

 

You only have to look around at what is being built now to see how little taste and appreciation of a good boat most boat buyers have. 

 

When I bought my boat with the beautiful long open tug deck the seller was deeply disillusioned but how many people came to view it and declared it a 'waste of space' and started prattling on about getting the cabin extended right up to the front.  This is the sort of thing any seller of a boat like this CTS boat will be up against. "Soon have that smelly old vintage engine out and make this into a second bedroom. Engine rooms are such a waste of space aren't they darhling?", I can imagine being said, repeatedly....

 

 

 

 

[Mick in Bangkok]

47 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I was answering the OPs question about likely 'sellability' of the boat in a few years' time. This is how Mrs and Mrs Normal will see it. Pedestrian. 60ft boat with a Gardner and bus windows is how it will be seen by yer average uninformed buyer, who will then worry about the 'thin' baseplate. Just like the OP is.

 

Mr and Mrs Normal viewing it will probably complain about being unable to stand up in the back cabin, too. 

I was under the assumption that with a hydraulic gearbox head room in back cabin would not be too greatly reduced, is this incorrect?

[alan_fincher]

39 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I was answering the OPs question about likely 'sellability' of the boat in a few years' time. This is how Mrs and Mrs Normal will see it. Pedestrian. 60ft boat with a Gardner and bus windows is how it will be seen by yer average uninformed buyer, who will then worry about the 'thin' baseplate. Just like the OP is.

 

Mr and Mrs Normal viewing it will probably complain about being unable to stand up in the back cabin, too.

Boats like this simply don't sell to "Mr & Mrs Normal Viewing" though, do they?

This is a different market entirely from cottage style Clonecraft trad or semi-trad.

 

Given the amount of time you spend driving around in that van of yours, I'm surprised you still seem to have no idea what a bus window looks like.  Hard to see much comparison with windows on a boat like this other than that they are both, (errm) windows.

The porthole versus "square" window snobbery is daft in my view.  There is no question of one being "right" and one being "wrong" on a cabin boat, other than I guess you can say "square" is more "traditional" for a "modern" cabin boat, and "ports" perhaps on the whole a more recent fad.  If you like a boat with ports you will probably buy that, if you would rather have a proper view out f large windows, you probably won't want ports.  There is a market for both, and I don't see either as a barrier to future re-selling.

Incidentally, I have been amused recently though to see references to people having "portholes" when what is fitted are clearly are modern style round windows, with a glass that is divided across the middle, and part drops back to open.  I'm sorry, those are windows, (just not very big ones!), not portholes.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Boats like this simply don't sell to "Mr & Mrs Normal Viewing" though, do they?

This is a different market entirely from cottage style Clonecraft trad or semi-trad.

 

Given the amount of time you spend driving around in that van of yours, I'm surprised you still seem to have no idea what a bus window looks like.  Hard to see much comparison with windows on a boat like this other than that they are both, (errm) windows.

The porthole versus "square" window snobbery is daft in my view.  There is no question of one being "right" and one being "wrong" on a cabin boat, other than I guess you can say "square" is more "traditional" for a "modern" cabin boat, and "ports" perhaps on the whole a more recent fad.  If you like a boat with ports you will probably buy that, if you would rather have a proper view out f large windows, you probably won't want ports.  There is a market for both, and I don't see either as a barrier to future re-selling.

Incidentally, I have been amused recently though to see references to people having "portholes" when what is fitted are clearly are modern style round windows, with a glass that is divided across the middle, and part drops back to open.  I'm sorry, those are windows, (just not very big ones!), not portholes.

 

 

The OP was not asking your opinion of how good a boat this is. He was asking how easily it will sell when he has finished with it. 

 

Do you hold it will sell just as easily as say a 60ft Reeves with Beta 43 at the same price?

 

 

 

 

[alan_fincher]

1 minute ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

I was under the assumption that with a hydraulic gearbox head room in back cabin would not be too greatly reduced, is this incorrect?

This boat says it has a PRM 500 hydraulic gearbox.  In this case "Hydraulic" just means it is shifted using hydraulics, not by large clunky mechanical levers.

There will still be a traditional prop-shaft under the back cabin floor, which means that must be raised above the boat bottom by welll in excess of half the diameter of the rop, and usually a lot more.  This boat will be restricted head room in the back cabin, as the pictures make fairly obvious.

 

It is unavoidable with a "mid" engine room and a conventional gearbox.  If you want full headroom throughout, don't consider boats with a "mid" engine room.

[RMK]

20 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

You’d hope that in years to come boats like this will be appreciated for what they are, and always find a buyer. There’s so much dross around now that hardly resemble a reasonably shaped boat that stuff like this will stand out from the crowd as a “proper” boat, albeit with square windows. 

I think older well maintained craft with a good pedigree will actually go up in value, as mine has already. 

What is it's pedigree ?

What certification did the builder have ?

Were they even coded welders (doubtful) ?

 

From a boaters point of view (yours), this ( the boat) may be something to be regarded as great. But from a fabricator/builders point of view, it's just another boat that under inspection, will probably turn up all sorts of issues. A 'boatbuilder' has to be a fabricator and welder first, there is no such thing as a boatbuilder without those credentials. Certification goes a long way, as does welding done by certificated welders (coded).

 

To most boaters on here and we do understand that more or less all are boaters, ie; not in the trade. Then we would say learn, before commenting.

Just to be clear, the vast majority of narrow-boat builders are not certificated for anything in the steel fabrication trade. Ask for sight of certificates and you'll soon find out. If that was brought in as a standard requirement (and it should be), you would see a lot of names, those you boaters think are good, just fade away, or start the trade training & courses, they should have already taken, probably years ago.

It would also bring prices down to the norm rather than inflated by, guess who..... boaters..

 

 

Now OP.

The boat looks o.k. but is £20-30,000 overpriced (at least, probably more). But as has been said here already, in today's market, well what you are willing to pay is the price of the boat. That makes it harder for the next buyer of any boat though. Because you boaters are your own worst enemy really.

Get it inspected and have them run that meter, for more than a few minutes, in more than just a few places.

 

Good luck with it anyway.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

This boat says it has a PRM 500 hydraulic gearbox.  In this case "Hydraulic" just means it is shifted using hydraulics, not by large clunky mechanical levers.

My boat has PRM 500 gearboxes and they are certainly driving conventional shafts.

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, RMK said:

What is it's pedigree ?

 

It's a CTS boat. Canal Transport Services. A highly regarded builder in business since the 1970s. 

 

But as you say, plenty of scope for problems to have developed since it was built in 1990. 

[noddyboater]

15 minutes ago, RMK said:

What is it's pedigree ?

What certification did the builder have ?

Were they even coded welders (doubtful) ?

 

From a boaters point of view (yours), this ( the boat) may be something to be regarded as great. But from a fabricator/builders point of view, it's just another boat that under inspection, will probably turn up all sorts of issues. A 'boatbuilder' has to be a fabricator and welder first, there is no such thing as a boatbuilder without those credentials. Certification goes a long way, as does welding done by certificated welders (coded).

 

To most boaters on here and we do understand that more or less all are boaters, ie; not in the trade. Then we would say learn, before commenting.

Just to be clear, the vast majority of narrow-boat builders are not certificated for anything in the steel fabrication trade. Ask for sight of certificates and you'll soon find out. If that was brought in as a standard requirement (and it should be), you would see a lot of names, those you boaters think are good, just fade away, or start the trade training & courses, they should have already taken, probably years ago.

It would also bring prices down to the norm rather than inflated by, guess who..... boaters..

 

 

 

Thanks, you’ve just highlighted my point far better than I did.

The first thing a true boatbuilder is isn’t a coded welder, it’s a boat enthusiast. You can’t build a decent boat until you’ve had time and experience actually using one. That’s why the current elite of builders have spent time boating, living with and restoring, real boats. Yes, any fabrication company can build an excellent shell from plan, but the point is a good builder doesn’t need the plan in the first place. 

Take a boat from an old school builder for a run down the canal, or better still river. Now do the same with a lovely shiny, straight as a die, crisp folds and buffed welds, built by XR&JW etc etc and you’ll quickly realise the difference. There’s always going to be customers for mass produced new shells, but as really good builders dwindle the market for high quality older stuff will always be there. 

[RMK]

14 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

It's a CTS boat. Canal Transport Services. A highly regarded builder in business since the 1970s. 

 

But as you say, plenty of scope for problems to have developed since it was built in 1990. 

I'm fully aware of who they are.

 

Barrat's have been building houses for over sixty years, I still wouldn't buy one.

 

Let me say, we're not calling this boat out as anything other than, just another boat (good or bad). It looks good, lines are probably filler as per other thread, engine is good etc.

Just not worth that money, to us anyway.

[matty40s]

52 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

The OP was not asking your opinion of how good a boat this is. He was asking how easily it will sell when he has finished with it. 

 

 

 

 

 

However, you gave your opinion of it being a "pedestrian" boat, which he didnt ask for, neither is it one.

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, RMK said:

Just not worth that money, to us anyway.

RMK - you do build some nice boats :-

 

The RMK 5000 Explorer.

 

[OldGoat]

The boat specification was nothing out of ordinary - indeed pretty standard (except for the engine which is well ahead of the game at any time) for the 90's

I had to nag my builder to fit a 10mm bottom plate - b. awkward to move around he said.

I fitted polystyrene fire resistant sheets, doubled up whe possible (ceiling and lower sides)

It's as cool as maybe in summer - helped by large 10" ex mainframe computer fans when moored up.

 

The only issue for me would be the asking price.....